Contraception dilemma

[mesl4]

I’m in RCIA and don’t know for sure if I’ll be 100% convinced Catholicism is true, but in case I do, I’m planting seeds w/my husband and getting a feel for how things will live out if I do convert. He’s totally against having more kids. We have a 4 and 6 yr old now. We’ve always used birth control. The last few yrs just condoms, and the last few mos. I’ve been trying the NFP since I learned the RC teaching on contraception. But then I learned even NFP is wrong unless some life threat/extreme condition. So are we just supposed to have unlimited kids? When is it ok to stop having kids…if ever? Also, since my hubby is anti more kids, what do I do? Is that a legit. reason to use NFP? Catholicism is hard because any sin sends you to hell if you don’t repent, but they keep coming up w/more things they call sins. I thought I read the Pope made new mortal sins like failing to recycle, accumulating excessive wealth,etc. Sounds like it really is about perfect obedience, not a heart that seeks God. Hmmm

 

[wanner47]

I’m in RCIA and don’t know for sure if I’ll be 100% convinced Catholicism is true, but in case I do, I’m planting seeds w/my husband and getting a feel for how things will live out if I do convert. He’s totally against having more kids. We have a 4 and 6 yr old now. We’ve always used birth control. The last few yrs just condoms, and the last few mos. I’ve been trying the NFP since I learned the RC teaching on contraception. But then I learned even NFP is wrong unless some life threat/extreme condition. So are we just supposed to have unlimited kids? When is it ok to stop having kids…if ever? Also, since my hubby is anti more kids, what do I do? Is that a legit. reason to use NFP? Catholicism is hard because any sin sends you to hell if you don’t repent, but they keep coming up w/more things they call sins. I thought I read the Pope made new mortal sins like failing to recycle, accumulating excessive wealth,etc. Sounds like it really is about perfect obedience, not a heart that seeks God. Hmmm

First of all, here’s some recommended reading for you:

Contraception: Why Not? by Janet Smith (article)

Good News About Sex and Marriage by Christopher West (book)

The Art of Natural Family Planning by John & Sheila Kipley (book)

Second of all, you seem to have quite a few misconceptions about Catholicism. Most of what you stated in your post is extremely inaccurate (for example, the Pope did *not *make up new mortal sins; see this thread for more information).

I recommend Catholicism for Dummies (no insult intended; it’s an EXCELLENT book!) as a starter for learning more about the Catholic faith. In the meantime, I recommend starting separate threads about your concerns; those are a lot to answer in one thread. Alternatively, search the forums for previous threads about the subjects that interest you.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Welcome home (almost! ). Dh and I are also converts–it’s been…almost 13 years now! It can be a tough journey.

NFP may be licitly used for just/serious/grave reasons. These reasons may be physical, psycological, or finanical. They don’t need to be life or death, but should be proportionatly reasonable. You and your dh, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will have to decide this and your dh will need to be on the same page with NPF anyway, because the abstinence can be difficult.

There are many resources available for you to learn what the Church really teaches (the ones listed in the above post are great!). The Catechism is a great place to start–and then read the footnoted documents it lists. You can even read it online:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

If your RCIA process is less than stellar (our was not great) then you’ll need to suppliment with other resources.

Prayers for your continued journey.

 

[ahappyhousewife]

Welcome to the faith. I am a convert myself. It’s funny but it was the issue of contraception that brought me home to the catholic church. I believed from my young teenage years that contraception and birth control were wrong and the only church I found that was 100% against them was the catholic church. It all started there and I wound up a few years later entering this wonderful faith.

I praise your efforts for seeking the truth, and pray you find them fully in the catholic church as I did. How wonderful you discovered NFP and NO you don’t have to have a life or death situation to use it. Only a serious situation. Having a husband who is against having more children, and of another faith (potentially) is serious enough. You must respect his needs (to not have more children now) without compromising your own beliefs (that contraception is wrong.) So, the solution, is to cease using contraception and get a good NFP instructor. Your local catholic church will lead you to classes nearest you. The reason an NFP instructor can be helpful is they can help to minimize the days in which you must abstain. Which is essential when one party is questioning its effectiveness. It is, by the way, with proper instruction 99% effective, which is equal or better than any birth control or contraception in postponing children.

As for the recycling and such, it is sinful to waste. But, I would not consider it a mortal sin, unless you are deliberately wasting large quantities of food and things essential to human life. These have been sins since the beginning, they are not new, just worded differently.

I hope and pray you find this helpful and come home to the catholic church one day soon.

 

[BamaRider]

I’ll only suggest this- the more you learn the TRUTH about being Catholic the more honest you have to be with your husband.

I’ll be honest, because I don’t know how to be anything else, if you finish your journey home, a good chance it can will bring about issues between y’all.

Don’t pretend these will go away, or you avoid them because might cause ripples.

What the church teaches on Life, is in conflict with most of society, even our fellow Christians, but that doesn’t matter, it is the* correct *teaching. I hope you sit down with your husband after each RCIA class, and tell him what you learned. “I learned about this tonight, or I learned why Catholics believe so and so.” And when it comes to contraception and kids, ask your husband to help you live your Faith, and not ram it down his throat. Becuase the rules of the game have changed since y’all married, and he deserves a chance.

I can’t promise the above tactics will work, I dunno. I suggest doing a search on these topics and see how others have addressed this issue.

 

[1ke]

But then I learned even NFP is wrong unless some life threat/extreme condition.

The Church teaching is that one must have a **just **reason that is in conformity with the moral law. Yes, that means it would be a serious reason and it would have to stem from something that itself is not immoral. Life threatening/extreme condition is not the threshhold one must meet.

The Church does not give a list of just reasons.

But, for an example-- a just reason would be that you are stretched emotionally or financially at the present time. You may postpone pregnancy, and revisit at another time.

By way of example, a reason that would probably not be just is that you want more “stuff” or just decide for no reason that you are “done.”

Now a Catholic with a non-Catholic spouse who is adamant that they have no more children may have a just reason in that they must cooperate with the non-Catholic spouse or risk harming the marriage.

It is something to discuss with a holy priest.

So are we just supposed to have unlimited kids? When is it ok to stop having kids…if ever?

The Church teaches that one is to be generous in one’s response to God, and also a good steward of what God has given.

So the answer is that one is not expected to have “unlimited” kids but one should *continually discern *whether or not one is being called to have another child througout the marriage. It’s a process that continues throughout the marriage.

Also, since my hubby is anti more kids, what do I do? Is that a legit. reason to use NFP?

It could be. You should discuss it with your priest, and also continue to discuss it with your husband. There have been many couples who said they were “done” only to change their mind a few years down the road.

Catholicism is hard because any sin sends you to hell if you don’t repent, but they keep coming up w/more things they call sins.

Unrepentent mortal sins lead to separation with God. Not “any” sins.

And, the Church does not “keep coming up with” more sins. The things the Church teaches are sinful have always been sinful. You are merely discovering the Truth. The Truth never changes.

I thought I read the Pope made new mortal sins like failing to recycle, accumulating excessive wealth,etc. Sounds like it really is about perfect obedience, not a heart that seeks God. Hmmm

No, that is not true. That is a mischaracterization of what the Pope stated (the secular news have a habit of misrepresenting Church teaching with regularity).

The Church has **always **taught we are to be a good steward of God’s creation-- as noted under the Seventh Commandment.

The Pope merely brought attention to these things that are so current in our daily news and so *relevant *to today’s society: our wasteful consumer driven society, the greed/sloth of many, the need to be good stewards towards the environment. None of this is new.

And, the Pope also highlighted those things of science that should not be done merely because they *can *be done in today’s world-- embryonic stem cell research, animal human hybrids, cloning, etc.

 

[quiet52]

from mesl4: I’m in RCIA and don’t know for sure if I’ll be 100% convinced Catholicism is true, but in case I do, I’m planting seeds w/my husband and getting a feel for how things will live out if I do convert. He’s totally against having more kids. We have a 4 and 6 yr old now.

During the RCIA process you will learn what the Church’s teachings about the sexual acts within marriage, and about the sacrament of matrimony. But if you cannot wait until that session, please make an appointment with your pastor, or talk with the RCIA leader.

In the meantime, here’s the catechism:

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/sixth.html and
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

Every sexual act within marriage is considered to have two purposes – unitive and procreative. That means for the unity of the couple (not for “self-gratification” but for mutual giving) and to be open to the possibility of life.

You wrote that your husband is “totally” against having more children. This is a problem of consent re: the sacrament of matrimony – I encourage you and your husband to talk with a priest about this asap.

Actually, other than abstinence, there is no birth control method or technique that is 100% effective in preventing births. So, assuming that your husband knows this, he obviously cannot be “totally” against having more children.

We’ve always used birth control. The last few yrs just condoms

artificial birth control is a grievous sin.

the last few mos. I’ve been trying the NFP since I learned the RC teaching on contraception. But then I learned even NFP is wrong unless some life threat/extreme condition. So are we just supposed to have unlimited kids? When is it ok to stop having kids…if ever? Also, since my hubby is anti more kids, what do I do?

It is perfectly moral to avoid having children for good reason.

aodonline.org/aodonline-sqlimages/shms/faculty/SmithJanet/Publications/HumanaeVitae/MoralUseofFamilyPlanning.pdf

Catholicism is hard because any sin sends you to hell if you don’t repent, but they keep coming up w/more things they call sins.

You have some more learnin’ to do.

Sounds like it really is about perfect obedience, not a heart that seeks God. Hmmm

A heart that truly seeks God truly seeks not to sin.

 

[mesl4]

The Church has **always **taught we are to be a good steward of God’s creation-- as noted under the Seventh Commandment.

The Pope merely brought attention to these things that are so current in our daily news and so *relevant *to today’s society: our wasteful consumer driven society, the greed/sloth of many, the need to be good stewards towards the environment. None of this is new.

I can understand the need to have a general non-wasteful attitude and practice, but now I have to have a recycle or die mentality. I generally recycle, but once in awhile, I throw a glass/plastic bottle in the garbage because I don’t feel like trying to clean it out first. Is that really going to keep me from Heaven? That seems so ridiculous and “letter of the law.”

 

[mesl4]

A heart that truly seeks God truly seeks not to sin.

Yes, but we all will fail. Noone can live a prefectly sinless life. That’s why we have confession , repentance, and forgiveness! My heart seeks not to sin, but it gets a little frustrating when I think of how many things are considered sins and it’s a constant battle.

I know we’re getting off subject, but doesn’t Paul say that “everything is permitted, but not everything is beneficial” and whatever we do, do it for the Lord? Peter wanted to not impose a bunch of rules on the Gentiles so stuck w the few: abstaining from meat sacrificed to idols, sexual immorality, meat w/blood, or some thing else… Later Paul says it is ok to eat the meat sacrificed to idols becuase we know it’s not the sacrifice isn’t to a real god. SOunds like the main reason to abstain was to avoid problems w/the Jewish Christians/converts

Also, why are condoms and “pullijng out” any more sins than NFP? Non of them kill a fertilized egg, all of them are to avoid pregnancy.

 

[samcarter14]

If you read the Catechism, the section on family life, it clearly states that a husband and wife are to discern carefully whether they can provide for more children, whether that be financially or emotionally.

We have three children. After our second, it felt all the time like there was somebody missing. My husband kept saying that “three is a perfect number”, and I was always looking around for that missing kid. So we had #3.

Right now we talk a lot about a fourth. Where would we put the kid in our house, are we financially set up (not really, we have another house to sell, my elderly in laws will be needing help fairly soon, since my MIL has cancer), or emotionally? My husband feels very strongly that he would not be equipped to give more children the attention he wants to. He was rather neglected by his father, and was one of seven kids, so that is coloring his viewpoint, obviously.

It’s not that we’re not open to more children. We do not use contraception, but we do keep track of my cycle. There are definitely times when conception is possible when we are not “careful”. If God blessed us with another child, we would welcome him or her with open arms and adjust our lives accordingly. But we’re not trying to conceive.

A couple should be united on whether to have more children or not. It should never be one spouse deciding.

 

[1ke]

I can understand the need to have a general non-wasteful attitude and practice, but now I have to have a recycle or die mentality. I generally recycle, but once in awhile, I throw a glass/plastic bottle in the garbage because I don’t feel like trying to clean it out first. Is that really going to keep me from Heaven? That seems so ridiculous and “letter of the law.”

Mels,

This is in your head. This is not what the Pope said. If you throw away a glass or plastic bottle you are not committing a mortal sin.

Perhaps you should also discuss with your priest the possibility that you have some form of scruples if you truly worry that throwing away a bottle is a mortal sin.

Scrupulosity is common, and it impacts the conscience. Discuss it with your priest.

 

[1ke]

Also, why are condoms and “pullijng out” any more sins than NFP? Non of them kill a fertilized egg, all of them are to avoid pregnancy.

Condoms and withdrawing are contraception. NFP is not.

They seek the pleasure of engaging in the sexual act while simultaneously keeping the act from reaching its natural end. You engage in the act and profane the act.

Natural Family Planning does not do this. You abstain, you don’t engage in the sex act at all. You do not seek to obtain the pleasure of intercourse while rendering it sterile by an action of yours.

 

[mesl4]

Condoms and withdrawing are contraception. NFP is not.

They seek the pleasure of engaging in the sexual act while simultaneously keeping the act from reaching its natural end. You engage in the act and profane the act.

Natural Family Planning does not do this. You abstain, you don’t engage in the sex act at all. You do not seek to obtain the pleasure of intercourse while rendering it sterile by an action of yours.

But isn’t by definition, NFP contraception? It is against conception therefore, abstaining during the fertile days…seeks pleasure on infertile days, by and action of ours (abstinace)renders conception sterile. I just don’t see the difference.Both methods are against conception. My husband says if we have to abstain for 2 wks (wk of period, wk after), than he wants other methods of pleasure (if you know what I mean) to make up for it. It’s hard enough to get in the mood the times w/do!

 

[agapewolf]

But isn’t by definition, NFP contraception? It is against conception therefore, abstaining during the fertile days…seeks pleasure on infertile days, by and action of ours (abstinace)renders conception sterile. I just don’t see the difference.Both methods are against conception. My husband says if we have to abstain for 2 wks (wk of period, wk after), than he wants other methods of pleasure (if you know what I mean) to make up for it. It’s hard enough to get in the mood the times w/do!

No, it isn’t.

Abstinence is not an action. It is NOT doing an action. You can’t have an inaction also be against something. NFP is NOT against conception. It doesn’t do anything against it.

People “don’t have sex” most of the time. That is not against conception.

Aritificial contraception is actually manipulating the actual good action and twisting it to something else.

Your calculations of avoiding times for avoiding pregnancy are inaccurate. Please make sure you learn a reliable method completely and accurately.

Pleasure to its completion is not allowed outside of intercourse. This is a gross twisting of the beautiful marital embrace to fulfilling selfish desires. It is no longer self-giving, but self-taking.

 

[happymommy]

But isn’t by definition, NFP contraception? It is against conception therefore, abstaining during the fertile days…seeks pleasure on infertile days, by and action of ours (abstinace)renders conception sterile. I just don’t see the difference.Both methods are against conception. My husband says if we have to abstain for 2 wks (wk of period, wk after), than he wants other methods of pleasure (if you know what I mean) to make up for it. It’s hard enough to get in the mood the times w/do!

you are not rendered sterile because you are together during non fertile days, there is always the chance that you have your days wrong or have missed a sign of fertility. You are open to strong swimmers It’s not like the pill that changes your body. There is always the chance of pregnancy.
I’m afraid that your husbands idea is wrong as well. You can’t take care of him any other way.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

But isn’t by definition, NFP contraception? It is against conception therefore, abstaining during the fertile days…seeks pleasure on infertile days, by and action of ours (abstinace)renders conception sterile. I just don’t see the difference.Both methods are against conception. My husband says if we have to abstain for 2 wks (wk of period, wk after), than he wants other methods of pleasure (if you know what I mean) to make up for it. It’s hard enough to get in the mood the times w/do!

The way God designed us women is that we can only conceive a few days a month. So by practicing NFP, we aren’t making ourselves sterile…we are just naturally infertile at that time.

Also NFP requires sacrifice…something not found with other contraceptive methods…there isn’t any sacrifice with them.

Think about food…food is pleasurable, but you can’t just eat all day long without gaining weight and having other health issues. We don’t say “eating 3 times a day will cut into my pleasure” The same way with intimacy. Abstaining from intimacy for some time can actually make the times you are together more special.

Lastly, if you have a typical 28 day cycle, and abstain for the week of your period…and the following week…you are then having relations at your most fertile time.

Maybe if you took a course on NFP and how the various methods work. you would feel more comfortable.

 

[mesl4]

In reading the cathechism, I didn’t see anything about sexual pleasure outside of inercourse being wrong…just sexual pleasure outside of marital relations being wrong. So, if for our sexual intimacy, it is done in a non intercourse way, it would be ok.

Also, we are still open to kids somehow if we are having sex during a fertile time using a condom/pull-out method. The condom could break, the self-control could fail during pull out time, there can be “stong swimmers” or “early releasers” before pulling out. Condoms are not 100% effective.

I was on the pill for years, not knowing it could be abortifacient. Then figured, well, I’ll just hope I don’t ovulate and then it won’t be abortifacient. Then, I wanted to avoid headaches so got off it and went to condoms/pull out. No contraception is full-proof though. God can make a baby whenever he wants. So what’s the big deal? I don’t get it. If I get pregnant, we will of course love and accept it, but we just arent’ trying to get pregnant.

 

[mesl4]

Lastly, if you have a typical 28 day cycle, and abstain for the week of your period…and the following week…you are then having relations at your most fertile time.

Maybe if you took a course on NFP and how the various methods work. you would feel more comfortable.

I’m actually an RN and teach Family Planning. I have taken an NFP course, and studied it more the last few months since wanting to use it myself. I ovulate early (around day 9 or 10) that is why I’d have to do the abstainence the wk after period. Sperm can survive up to 7 days and eggs up to 48 hrs, so to be safe we shouldn’t have sex the wk after my period.

 

[1ke]

But isn’t by definition, NFP contraception?

No.

Contraception means you engage in the sex act and take an **action **to alter that act and keep it from reaching its natural end.

NFP is information. It can be used to achieve or avoid pregnancy. It tells you when the woman is naturally fertile or naturally infertile. You can choose to engage in the sex act or refrain from it, but you never alter it. It always reaches its natural end. If there is no egg there for the sperm to fertilize, that is part of God’s design, not an action taken by the couple to kill the egg, kill the sperm or mutilate the woman’s uterine lining.

A couple who abstains respects the sex act by understanding that every time they engage in it, the act must be complete and unaltered in any way.

It is against conception therefore, abstaining during the fertile days…seeks pleasure on infertile days, by and action of ours (abstinace)renders conception sterile.

This is untrue. God renders the woman naturally fertile and naturally infertile through the rhythm of her cycle. This is how women are designed. If the couple engages in a completed act of intercourse, they do nothing wrong. It is objectively procreative. If there is no egg there for the sperm to fertilize, that is not an action of the couple, but of the natural cycle of the woman.

I’m at my computer right now, therefore I am abstaining from sexual relations with my husband. God gave us the freedom to choose when to have sexual relations with our spouse. But any time we choose to engage in the marital embrace, we must respect its design and nature by not taking any action to alter intercourse or its natural end.

My husband says if we have to abstain for 2 wks (wk of period, wk after),

I suggest you take a course or obtain a book on natural family planning. This is not how a woman’s cycle works. You really need to learn an actual NFP method, not just guess when to abstain or rely on some sort of calendar approximation. If you have a serious reason to avoid, what you wrote above will not cut it.

than he wants other methods of pleasure (if you know what I mean) to make up for it.

Your husband **does **have a right to marital intercourse. If he wants to impose upon you the “no more children” ultimatum, then he must be prepared to accept that means he will have to accept no intercourse when you are fertile. If he wants to be intimate and you are fertile, then he is accepting the possibility of more children. It’s a package deal.

Your husband does **not **have a right to orgasms. The things he proposes are against the moral law. You cannot participate in such activities.

 

[1ke]

In reading the cathechism, I didn’t see anything about sexual pleasure outside of inercourse being wrong…just sexual pleasure outside of marital relations being wrong. So, if for our sexual intimacy, it is done in a non intercourse way, it would be ok.

No, Mels, this is incorrect.

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman.

“Conjugal love” means sexual intercourse.

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

Note it says sexual pleasue is morally disordered when it is not procreative and unitive-- meaning a completed act of sexual intercourse. You cannot seek sexual pleasure in isolation from a procreative and unitive act: intercourse.

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

The above paragraph means that sexual married relations must be both unitive and procreative (a completed act of sexual intercourse).

2366 it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life

The above paragraph tells us marital sexuality must be ordered to procreation-- meaning a completed act of intercourse.

Also, we are still open to kids somehow if we are having sex during a fertile time using a condom/pull-out method. The condom could break, the self-control could fail during pull out time, there can be “stong swimmers” or “early releasers” before pulling out. Condoms are not 100% effective.

The Church doesn’t teach we must be “open to life” in some vague, general way.

The Church teaches that **each act **of intercourse must be properly ordered to unity and procreation. This means any time you alter the act, you are engaging in a disordered act. Condoms and withdrawing violate the requirement that each act of intercourse be unaltered, reaching its natural end. Each act of intercourse between spouses must be both unitive and procreatively-- objectively. This means the natural order is preserved. Again, if no egg is there to meet the sperm, that is nature-- not a human action.

No contraception is full-proof though. God can make a baby whenever he wants. So what’s the big deal? I don’t get it. If I get pregnant, we will of course love and accept it, but we just arent’ trying to get pregnant.

The big deal is that God created the marital act in a specific way and for a specific purpose. Violating God’s law regarding how we are to use and honor our sexuality is no different than violating his law regarding how we are to honor the Sabbath, how we are to tell the truth, how we are to not kill.

God created our sexuality, and he created it for a specific purpose and with a specific natural order.

When we violate that, we profane the marital act just as if we took the Eucharist and then spat it on the ground-- not allowing it to reach its natural end, which is complete union with us. The marriage relationship is the earthly symbol of Christ’s union with his Church. When you contracept, you are rejecting the full union of life-giving and love-giving meaning that the sex act has just as if you spit out the Eucharist you would be rejecting the life-giving and love-giving meaning of Christ’s sacrifice of his Body and Blood.