Contraception hypothetical

[tjm190]

If a couple uses a condom with the understanding that a child will be conceived if and only if God wills it, how is this couple denying God’s will?

 

[True_Believer_1]

Have you not heard the it is written that “Thou shalt not put the Lord Thy God to the Test”!

This would be no different then a person jumping off a very high building and saying that if God wills it, I will survive! Of course if God wills it they will survive, but why would God reward such stupidity.

Do what is right, because it is the right thing to do. You will receive your reward for trusting in the Lord and what He says, rather then trying to find ways around His words.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!

 

[tjm190]

I fail to see the connection.
In the cliff situation, a man who does not wish to die is taking action that increase his chances of dying significantly unless God acts. He is taking an acting simply for the purpose of seeing if God will save him-hence, putting God to the test.
In the contraception situation, a couple that does not wish to have children is taking an action that makes the chances of the desired outcome (or rather, lack of outcome). They are acting to achieve their ends- rather than testing God, they are making the outcome they desire more likely, but with the understanding that intercourse always results in conception when God wills it.

edit: and if you have come across an area in God’s word (the Bible) that condemns contraception, I’d be glad to see it.

 

[PeterMuz]

Have you not heard the it is written that “Thou shalt not put the Lord Thy God to the Test”!

This would be no different then a person jumping off a very high building and saying that if God wills it, I will survive! Of course if God wills it they will survive, but why would God reward such stupidity.

Do what is right, because it is the right thing to do. You will receive your reward for trusting in the Lord and what He says, rather then trying to find ways around His words.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!

Perfect Answer!

 

[Dtmccameron]

If a couple uses a condom with the understanding that a child will be conceived if and only if God wills it, how is this couple denying God’s will?

You’re hurting my brain…They know God set up sex for procreation, yet they take steps to prevent it? Because they’re demanding He miraculously override their efforts? Could you be more in depth about the situation?

 

[Gertabelle]

I fail to see the connection.
In the cliff situation, a man who does not wish to die is taking action that increase his chances of dying significantly unless God acts. He is taking an acting simply for the purpose of seeing if God will save him-hence, putting God to the test.
In the contraception situation, a couple that does not wish to have children is taking an action that makes the chances of the desired outcome (or rather, lack of outcome).

OK, you are functioning under the assumption that it is acceptable to put one’s desires not to have a child ahead of God’s plan for a family to have or not have children.

In the Catholic Church, married couples are directed to be “open to life.” The only way to be open to life, to truly and completely allow God to be in control of creating new life is to refrain from using any form of contraception. A married couple may prayerfully discern that they are not to have children at a particular time, and in that case they must carefully avoid intercourse during the wife’s fertile time, or refrain from intercourse entirely.

They are acting to achieve their ends- rather than testing God, they are making the outcome they desire more likely, but with the understanding that intercourse** always results in conception when God wills it**.

By the way, God’s Will is thwarted constantly. This is why Jesus directed us to pray “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Our sins of omission and commission are constantly interfering with God’s Will being completed. We need to pray for the grace and strength to be part of doing God’s Will here on earth. Following the Chruch’s teachings (on contraception as well as other matters) is a great start

Gertie

 

[PeterMuz]

If a couple uses a condom with the understanding that a child will be conceived if and only if God wills it, how is this couple denying God’s will?

Then why use contraception? If the couple really believes they will conceive a child if and only if God wills it, how about not using contraception and avoid the question? I think it is safe to say that it is God’s will that we use his creation the way he created it to be used. The thing about contraception, is that you are taking an un-natural step to avoid a pregnancy. With something like Natural Family Planning you are not doing that, but you are using what God created the way he meant for it to be used.

You are also telling God that you know better than he does. Most people don’t think of that, but this is the message that contraception sends. That you want, what you want, when you want, without the end result that follows.

You should read the website below. Its a link to a talk call Contraception Why Not by Janet Smith. There you will find more information that you can imagine.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

 

[tjm190]

You’re hurting my brain…They know God set up sex for procreation, yet they take steps to prevent it? Because they’re demanding He miraculously override their efforts? Could you be more in depth about the situation?

God attached pleasure to sex, so clearly it had other purposes. If, for any reason, they do not believe they are in a situation to bring a child into this world but still desire sexual activity, then it seems the most reasonable action would be to have sex but take steps to make conception less likely but still possible.

 

[j2c99]

God attached pleasure to sex, so clearly it had other purposes. If, for any reason, they do not believe they are in a situation to bring a child into this world but still desire sexual activity, then it seems the most reasonable action would be to have sex but take steps to make conception less likely but still possible.

That makes no sense, and comes based from a malformed foundation of logic and reason, as well as a misunderstanding of the nature of God.

Could it be that the pleasure tied with sex was meant to keep a man and woman together in marriage and build a bond? Do you know that the woman in a sexual relationship with a man develops a antigenic bonding with the man’s semen, that makes the woman “attached” to that man? Do you know that both partners become tied closer together in marriage bond by the help of the oxytocin released during pretty much all sexual-related activity? Intimacy of that level is meant for two humans who are committed and together for their lives, not for one-night stands and orgies or other sexual debauchery.

Temperance is a highly valued virtue, and takes effort to achieve. Only by God’s grace can this be realized.

 

[tjm190]

Then why use contraception? If the couple really believes they will conceive a child if and only if God wills it, how about not using contraception and avoid the question? I think it is safe to say that it is God’s will that we use his creation the way he created it to be used. The thing about contraception, is that you are taking an un-natural step to avoid a pregnancy. With something like Natural Family Planning you are not doing that, but you are using what God created the way he meant for it to be used.

You are also telling God that you know better than he does. Most people don’t think of that, but this is the message that contraception sends. That you want, what you want, when you want, without the end result that follows.

You should read the website below. Its a link to a talk call Contraception Why Not by Janet Smith. There you will find more information that you can imagine.

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

The message behind the “cliff jumper” scenario was that you need to take an active role in your life, and that means actively pursuing your will and not counting on God every step of the way. The man jumping off the cliff did not want to die, but assumes God will save him. A couple that does not want to conceive but does not take any action to that end is in point of fact testing God. There is a difference between telling God your will is more important than his and taking action to make the outcome you desire more likely.

Btw: How do NFP supporters respond to Paul’s condemnation of any abstinence (besides abstaining for prayer)?

 

[tjm190]

That makes no sense, and comes based from a malformed foundation of logic and reason, as well as a misunderstanding of the nature of God.

Could it be that the pleasure tied with sex was meant to keep a man and woman together in marriage and build a bond? Do you know that the woman in a sexual relationship with a man develops a antigenic bonding with the man’s semen, that makes the woman “attached” to that man? Do you know that both partners become tied closer together in marriage bond by the help of the oxytocin released during pretty much all sexual-related activity? Intimacy of that level is meant for two humans who are committed and together for their lives, not for one-night stands and orgies or other sexual debauchery.

Temperance is a highly valued virtue, and takes effort to achieve. Only by God’s grace can this be realized.

So, by your own admission, sex has benefits outside of reproduction- and so a couple not in a position to procreate could reasonably conclude that sex would still benefit their relationship. And, since the aforementioned couple has the ability to reduce the probability of the outcome they wish to avoid while still engaging in sexual activity, while still having the understanding that God’s will trumps theirs, where is the sin?

 

[j2c99]

So, by your own admission, sex has benefits outside of reproduction- and so a couple not in a position to procreate could reasonably conclude that sex would still benefit their relationship. And, since the aforementioned couple has the ability to reduce the probability of the outcome they wish to avoid while still engaging in sexual activity, while still having the understanding that God’s will trumps theirs, where is the sin?

I fail to see where I made an admission that sex has benefits outside of reproduction. It’s that either/or mentality that troubles people in many aspects of morality and Catholic teaching.

The benefits are CONCURRENT with reproduction. They do not stand outside of the sexual act as some benefit. They all go together. Both/and. Not either/or.

To your other point, just because ability is there does not mean something should be done. This is obvious with any thing in life. Just because a purse is unattended, doesn’t mean I should steal it. Just because an herb is natural, doesn’t mean I should ingest it. The sin in sexual activity is it being outside of marriage, for one. Second, if its not procreative and unitive within that marriage, then it is a mortal sin too.

I’m not trying to blast you or anything, maybe you just don’t know or aren’t a Catholic yet, but theres some easy websites to read to brush up on the reasoning here and what defines a mortal sin. Here’s a standard one.

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

 

[PeterMuz]

There is a difference between telling God your will is more important than his and taking action to make the outcome you desire more likely.

Sounds real selfish to me… And last time I read 1 Corinthians ch 13 I remember it saying that “Love is not self seeking”. Sex is supposed to be a Free and Total giving of self. It’s not total if you hold back the pro-creative side.

The message behind the “cliff jumper” scenario was that you need to take an active role in your life, and that means actively pursuing your will and not counting on God every step of the way. The man jumping off the cliff did not want to die, but assumes God will save him. A couple that does not want to conceive but does not take any action to that end is in point of fact testing God.

That makes no sense. But I ask again… Why, if the couple believes they will only conceive a child if God wills it, would you use contraception??? Are you saying that if it is Gods will, you are going to try to stop it from happening? You would then be telling God that you know better than he does. Maybe you are fine with that, but I am not. And you are not testing God, but using what he created and gave to you. Using contraception even if you think the woman in infertile shows a lack of faith.

Btw: How do NFP supporters respond to Paul’s condemnation of any abstinence (besides abstaining for prayer)?

I assume you are talking about 1Tim 4:3? What this scripture verse is addressing is the heresy that flesh and wine are evil in themselves because they were not created by the true God. This was a heresy of the time. This is also why 1 Tim 4:3-5 says: “They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”

The point about prayer is one of the biggest concepts behind NFP. A couple needs more than sex for a good marriage. In NFP there is something referred to as S.P.I.C.E. Spiritual, Physical, Intellectual, Creative and Emotional.

I have to say, it does not sound like you are open, but asked your original question hoping to find a bunch of Catholics who agreed with you. Maybe to justify contraception. I doubt you read Contraception Why Not.

 

[PeterMuz]

God attached pleasure to sex, so clearly it had other purposes. If, for any reason, they do not believe they are in a situation to bring a child into this world but still desire sexual activity, then it seems the most reasonable action would be to have sex but take steps to make conception less likely but still possible.

God attached pleasure to eating as well. But there are times and places where you should not eat. Gluttony. Similarly, there is a time and place to abstain from sex.

Sex is both unitive and pro-creative. the unitive part is just as important as the pro-creative aspect, but at the same time you cannot be completely in unity if it not a free and total giving of self. Contraception says "I want to give myself you to you, but I don’t want to give you all of myself. Thats not free or total.

 

[gardenswithkids]

If a couple uses a condom with the understanding that a child will be conceived if and only if God wills it, how is this couple denying God’s will?

Hi tjm,

As a former user of contraception, I understand your point. Most who justify contraception in that way make an underlying assumption that God’s will for sex only relates to having a child or not. You already acknowledged that sex serves other purposes too. There are other aspects of God’s will for sexuality that you overlooked in your hypothesis.

 

[St_Francis]

So, by your own admission, sex has benefits outside of reproduction- and so a couple not in a position to procreate could reasonably conclude that sex would still benefit their relationship. And, since the aforementioned couple has the ability to reduce the probability of the outcome they wish to avoid while still engaging in sexual activity, while still having the understanding that God’s will trumps theirs, where is the sin?

They are taking the pleasure while frustrating the other purpose. This is gross, but it’s like when the Romans used to eat, vomit, then eat some more.

 

[tjm190]

I fail to see where I made an admission that sex has benefits outside of reproduction. It’s that either/or mentality that troubles people in many aspects of morality and Catholic teaching.

The benefits are CONCURRENT with reproduction. They do not stand outside of the sexual act as some benefit. They all go together. Both/and. Not either/or.

To your other point, just because ability is there does not mean something should be done. This is obvious with any thing in life. Just because a purse is unattended, doesn’t mean I should steal it. Just because an herb is natural, doesn’t mean I should ingest it. The sin in sexual activity is it being outside of marriage, for one. Second, if its not procreative and unitive within that marriage, then it is a mortal sin too.

I’m not trying to blast you or anything, maybe you just don’t know or aren’t a Catholic yet, but theres some easy websites to read to brush up on the reasoning here and what defines a mortal sin. Here’s a standard one.

saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

 But if there is no proven, hypothetical, or moral (although this last one [clearly] lacks consensus) negative connotation attached to an available act that is seen as having a possible benefit to those who would undertake it, it would be nonsensical to avoid said act.
 And would you say it would be a sin for a couple that can not produce children due to reasons beyond their control to have sex, given that the sex is non procreative? 
"Blasting" is to be expected on internet forums, there's no cause for concern.

 

[tjm190]

Sounds real selfish to me… And last time I read 1 Corinthians ch 13 I remember it saying that “Love is not self seeking”. Sex is supposed to be a Free and Total giving of self. It’s not total if you hold back the pro-creative side…

It’s no more selfish then any other time you act and try to avoid an outcome you would find unfavorable.

That makes no sense. But I ask again… Why, if the couple believes they will only conceive a child if God wills it, would you use contraception??? Are you saying that if it is Gods will, you are going to try to stop it from happening? You would then be telling God that you know better than he does. Maybe you are fine with that, but I am not. And you are not testing God, but using what he created and gave to you. Using contraception even if you think the woman in infertile shows a lack of faith. .

That’s the same logic by which faith healers operate. Will a cancer patient die if God doesn’t desire it, even if he turns down chemo? Of course not- but should he take his desire to live into account? Of course! Would a man who ties his shoes because he doesn’t wish to fall be telling God he knows better than Him?

I assume you are talking about 1Tim 4:3? What this scripture verse is addressing is the heresy that flesh and wine are evil in themselves because they were not created by the true God. This was a heresy of the time. This is also why 1 Tim 4:3-5 says: “They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”.

Actually, I was going for first corinthians 7:5

The point about prayer is one of the biggest concepts behind NFP. A couple needs more than sex for a good marriage. In NFP there is something referred to as S.P.I.C.E. Spiritual, Physical, Intellectual, Creative and Emotional. .

Of course couples need more then sex, and I personally have no objection to NFP, although the acronym gave me a chuckle

I have to say, it does not sound like you are open, but asked your original question hoping to find a bunch of Catholics who agreed with you. Maybe to justify contraception. I doubt you read Contraception Why Not.

Not really, catholic elementary school- high school and involvement with my church’s youth group when I was a minor has shown me that the Catholics who accept contraception are few and far between.

 

[tjm190]

God attached pleasure to eating as well. But there are times and places where you should not eat. Gluttony. Similarly, there is a time and place to abstain from sex.

Sex is both unitive and pro-creative. the unitive part is just as important as the pro-creative aspect, but at the same time you cannot be completely in unity if it not a free and total giving of self. Contraception says "I want to give myself you to you, but I don’t want to give you all of myself. Thats not free or total.

But are mortally diet foods sinful? After all, diet foods intentionally remove the nutritional aspect from eating while leaving the please (more or less) intact.
And how exactly is the desire to give oneself to someone else diminished by not wanting to create new life due to the inability to support said life?

 

[tjm190]

Hi tjm,

As a former user of contraception, I understand your point. Most who justify contraception in that way make an underlying assumption that God’s will for sex only relates to having a child or not. You already acknowledged that sex serves other purposes too. There are other aspects of God’s will for sexuality that you overlooked in your hypothesis.

And I suppose there is some study out there that suggests contraceptive sex is less unitive?