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tjm190
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Note to self: do not allow replies to pile up.
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PeterMuz
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Please give an example and I will show you the difference.
No he would not. But when you take something that God created and removed half of it because you simply do not was to deal with it, then yes. You are telling God that YOU know better than he does and His creation is not good.
example: Lets say that you are married and your spouse loves you more than you can imagine. You don’t make that much money but your spouse save up all the spare change they can for years to buy you a Ferrari. Lets say you really want to go off-roading, so you take this brand new ferrari. The person who bought that for you is going to feel like a pile of dung. How dare you go ruin this gift. I know this is a poor example but the point is, someone has given you a priceless gift and you totally disregarding that. The gift of procreation is so much better than a ferrari. We are made in the image and likeness of God and this unitive and procreative aspect of sex is when we are most like him. He has basically given us the power to bring a new soul into the world. But whatever. If now is not a good time for you, you should do whatever makes you happy… cough cough LOTS OF SARCASM cough.
This was the same issue though. When Paul came to Corinth the where he had setup a church, he came back and the Corinthians had lost sight of some many of the Churches teachings. This was one of them and the same issue being addressed in Timothy.
Yes the acronym is cheesy, but all these things are needed in a marriage and are all good alternatives if you want to abstain.
But please answer me this. You said that the only time you should abstain is to pray… Do you really spend that much time in prayer on nights where you abstain??? If so, Great! I just doubt anyone would do that.
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gardenswithkids
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LOL. You did a nice job trying to answer all previous posts. Good op etiquette.
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gardenswithkids
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No formal “studies” address that specific topic to my knowledge. Here are some points to ponder that suggest contraception may interfere with unity.
Studies have shown a markedly lower divorce rate in couples that use NFP compared to couples who use contraception. Divorce certainly suggests “disunity”, but such studies don’t neccesarily “prove” contraception is disunitive. Another suggestion of “less unitive” is that the condom is literally termed part of the “barrier methods” by the medical community–and the word “barrier” suggests separation.
While your original post asked about spouses using contraception, the fact remains that contraceptive sex is largely practiced by couples that have NOT united themselves in Holy Matrimony. Look at the cultural changes and social acceptance of both pre-marital sex and divorce that followed the legalization and widespread use of contraception. Most who promote “The Pill” recognize its developement had a pivotal role in the sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s. Portions of the encyclical Humanae Vitae prophetically wrote such changes would take place if contraception became widely used.
Contraception blocks some of the unitive aspect of sexuality. But I don’t think that contraception* completely* blocks the unitive aspect of marital sexual relations, (just as it doesn’t completely guarrantee a woman won’t get pregnant.) However, couples that fear pregnancy may not personally “feel” contracepted sex is “less unitive” because the fear of pregnancy may intrude in their feelings of unity during contraception-free sex.
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tjm190
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God created the process of eating both to provide nutrition and fulfill our appetites. Some people, for one reason or another, do not wish to gain nutrition when they choose to eat, so they resort to highly synthetic foods to fulfill their appetites without gaining a significant amount of nutrition- they amend a process God created to better fit their situation. Is this mortally sinful?
Having sex with a condom does not “break” sex.
“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.”
I fail to see the connection.
Not my thoughts, Paul’s.
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tjm190
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Take it from an actuarial science major, correlation ≠ causation. Obviously, couple with weaker marriages are more likely to use contraception- but this does not make contraception bad. And barrier clearly refers to the prevention of the unity of sperm and egg- but this has nothing to do with the bond between husband and wife.
The fact that contraception can and often is used to make sinful activity easier does not make contraception itself easier- anything has the potential to be abused.
And again, there is 0 (ZERRRRROOOO) evidence that contraception blocks any unitive aspect of sex.
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gardenswithkids
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I said those were points to ponder. I am fully aware that correlation does not equal causation, but there fact remains that there is a correlation between contraception and the breakdown of marriage and the family. Rather than immediately dismissing the correlation, think about it. Scientists should reflect on what they observe before drawing conclusions, otherwise they are prone to mistakes based on prejudices from their personal biases. I didn’t claim that this correlation “proved” my point, but it stronly suggests that contraception blocks some of the unitive aspects of sex.
Since you want “evidence”, why not try your own case study? (*If *you are married, which I presume you are.) Abandon condoms for a few years, and follow Church teachings on the marriage and sexuality. My hypothesis is once you and your spouse overcome your fear of pregnancy, you will find non-contracepted sex better and more unitive. I won’t fully write up my husband’s and my own personal case study, but after years of using contraception we eventually followed the Church teachings and found Church approved sex “al la natural” better. (FYI, we don’t use NFP either, which is a perfectly acceptable Church approved option. The Church doesn’t tell us we have to use birth control and family planning.)
By the way, as a parent, I can guarantee that one thing that “unites” and “bonds” my husband and me together are the genetic bonds of our DNA found in every cell of our children. Those tightly wound double helix bonds are a direct result of the reproductive aspects of sex.
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PeterMuz
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Being that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and made in the image and likeness of God, we do have a moral responsiblity to be healthy. But I love your example. Lets say that having sex with the hope that you will not become pregnant is like eating the highly synthetic foods. If that is all you eat, you will die. You have to have a balance. Just like you and your spouse do need to abstain from time to time to work on or strengthen other areas of your marriage.
It does pervert the act and is not how God designed it. Having sex with a condom says to your spouse, “I give you ALL of myself… except my fertility”. Sex is supposed to be a Free and Total giving of ones self. Also if you get married in the Catholic Church, when the priest asks you if you will lovingly accept children from God, you cannot say yes if you intend to use a condom. Because that would be a lie.
Paul is saying in those verses that sex is GOOD! A married couple SHOULD be having sex. However, there will be times when you choose to abstain. There is nothing wrong with abstaining from time to time. But again, if you believe that verse is saying that the ONLY time you should not have sex is when you are praying, then I ask AGAIN… Is the ONLY time you abstain when you and your spouse are in prayer???
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PeterMuz
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This quote shows a complete lack of understanding or sex. Since the availability of become what it is today, what has changed in American families?? Abortion has gone way way up. Divorce has gone through the roof. Sexual abuse has vastly increased. The number of single mothers is higher than anyone could have imagined and we still think contraception is a good idea.
The stuff below is taken from Contraception Why Not, something you clearly did not read.
"Other Harmful Consequences of Contraception
Increase of divorce
What about the other predictions of the secular world who thought contraception would be so great? What about this prediction that marriages would be better? I think, in some respects, marriages are better, but the divorce rate shows us that there are a lot of very bad marriages, or at least marriages that end because people think they are very bad. In fact, the divorce rate doubled between 1965 and 1975. The divorce rate had been sort-of sneaking up all century long until in the mid 1960’s it was at 25%, and then in 1975 it got up to 50%. And so in a short ten-year period, the divorce rate doubled. There’s a demographer at the University of Stanford named Robert Michael who was kind of intrigued by this, and he wondered why it was that the divorce rate doubled in a ten-year period. And he actually discovered that as the contraceptive pill became more and more available, that line was parallel to the divorce line. In about 1975-1976 when every woman who wanted access to the Pill had it, that’s when the divorce rate leveled off.
He says he can attribute 45% of this increase to increased use of contraceptives. His first observation is that the statistical data show that those who use contraceptives have fewer children and have them later in marriage. And his statistical data show that those who have the first baby in the first two years of marriage and another baby in the next couple years of marriage have a much longer lasting marriage than those who don’t. Now I’m sure everybody here in this room can tell me of someone they know who’s been married for twenty-five years with eight or ten kids who’s gotten divorced and it’s all very sad, but that’s the rarity. His data show that those who have babies sooner in marriage have a longer lasting marriage than those who do not."
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newbetx
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As you can tell from the number of responses, this is a pretty hot topic here.
Might I say that I once beleived as you. Might I say, we are all subject to falling into traps and not even realizing it. While the Church’s position on birith control sound ludicris, my experince and now my understanding of the teaching are actually more sane than that of contraceptive sex.
There isn’t one bible verse that covers this situation. There isn’t a simple, single post that can convey the concepts behind Humane Vitae. There is a long list of various stories and references in the bible that lead to the Catholic teachings on the subject of sex. A compilation of those is contained in something called Theology of the Body. There are many free MP3s that cover the basics. There are several books.
My favorite MP3’s are from Fr. Altier and Fr. Riccardo. A simple, easy to read book is “Theology of the Body for Beginners.”
I strongly urge you to take the proper, logical path to understanding all this by reading the book. The MP3’s are a great warm up. If you’ld like more suggestions, PM me. I love this stuff.
Peace, and enjoy!
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newbetx
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Howdy! From down the road in Austin!
Peter. I don’t know how you came to the realization that the cultural view of sex is wrong and the church’s is correct. I had to learn two ways. One from bad experience and then, through the miracle of CAF, from TOB.
You must please try to remember that a vast majority of people and of Catholics aren’t blessed to understand what you understand. What is proposed by us seems quite contrary to their experience. We have to remember that our Church is patient. We must be patient, too.
You have your heart in the right place and provide very good information. I don’t mean to single you out. No. It is difficult for any of us to discuss things calmly that we are passionate about. The subject is too complex to address in a few posts. I think if it were more simple, it would be part of homilies. It’s complex and requires a step by step explaination to bring about the realization that the Church is correct and show us that our selfish desires are just that.
I do want to add something to your excellent reference in your post that may help with the argument. Those that practice NFP have a divorce rate of about 4%. Catholics that pray together and go to Mass regularly and practice NFP are much less than 1%. Catholics on contraception are nearly the same or worse than the non-Catholic counterparts. So there is something about uncontraceptive sex that is significant, as well as a good faithful relationship.
Peace to you and thank you for your support of our faith.
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newbetx
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Well, you did not deny it was selfish. Why does “want your cake and eat it, too” not apply?
The official church study I’ve seen referenced by Bishops and such says that more than 80% of fertile american Catholic women use contraception. So it’s not as “far and few between” as your experience says. There is far more “talk” about living the faith than action to do so in most people, I’m afraid.
NFP is work. Most of us aren’t interested in such inconvenience nor the effort. Nor are most of us interested in giving ourselves completely over to God and trusting such a process. For those that do, they are blessed. It’s our choice.
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tjm190
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Again, correlation alone can be dismissed because it is often completely meaningless. The psychological effects of contraceptive sex have not been shown to differ from those without contraception. And since it is entirely plausible that couples with weaker marriages will not desire any children/ not find NFP appealing, the correlation is dismissed further.
I hate to dismiss a well written paragraph so briefly, but I’m not married (but in any event, anecdotal evidence would not qualify as a study)
And the chemical bonds between the proteins in DNA doesn’t appear relevant to the bonds between two people.
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tjm190
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But before, the mere act of perverting a process God designed was mortally sinful- at times, it may be more responsible for a couple not to conceive, but their sexual desires don’t wain. Which brings us back to the eating scenario. Should a person (or couple) who knows it would be irresponsible to take part in a natural process as it was created but still feels the natural urge attached to this process alter the process to fulfill their appetites or simply deny themselves? (And just like a person who only ate synthetic low nutrition foods would die, so would our species if we only practiced sex with contraceptives- but that does not mean these things have no place.)
We’re already in a discussion about how there is nothing to suggest that sex with contraction is any less unitive.
Paul says, quite specially, that the ONLY reason to abstain from sex is to devote yourself to prayer, which implies all other causes to be immoral. If a process NECESSITATES periods of abstinence for other reasons, that process can be said to be immoral as well. Oh, and I’m unmarried.
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tjm190
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tjm190
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I would not consider myself undereducated on the issue, given that I’ve actually taken a Theology of the Body-ish course (sexual ethics). Not to sound disrespectful (truly), but experiences has shown me that digging deeper into a belief that seems completely illogical almost always leads to the discovery that said belief was, in fact, as it seemed.
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tjm190
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I didn’t say it was unselfish because I’m not sure I fully understand how taking your desire into account when you act is selfish. I outlined the question abit more in another response that should be near here.
Ah. Well my experience consists of what people claim, rather than what they do- obviously, it’s rather flawed.
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Timbothefiveth
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If you believe that a couple will concieve only when God wills it, then you don’t need contraception.
Also, just because God wills something doesn’t mean it will happen, or that it won’t happen if he doesn’t will it. For instance, he wills you to live a holy life. It’s up to you whether or not that happens.
Oh, and finally, with contraceptives, you are using someone as an object for your pleasure. Eating a reduced calorie diet would be like using NFP. Overeating and constantly having the fat surgicly removed would be the equivelant of contraception. Of course, eating is not as easy to sin with.
Also, just because God wills something doesn’t mean it will happen, or that it won’t happen if he doesn’t will it. For instance, he wills you to live a holy life. It’s up to you whether or not that happens.
. Sometimes you’ve got to resist temptation. With NFP you usually only have to wait a matter of days
Eating is far different. Eating is necessary to live. Also, the bible warns that sexual sins are very grave sins because they affect not just someone else, they also affect you.
Someone eating special foods is still eating, like it was designed. The Bible also never condemms going on a diet.
Someone eating special foods is still eating, like it was designed. The Bible also never condemms going on a diet if it’s for good reason. (Not vanity) The Bible does condemn contraceptives.
Oh, and finally, with contraceptives, you are using someone as an object for your pleasure. Eating a reduced calorie diet would be like using NFP. Overeating and constantly having the fat surgicly removed would be the equivelant of contraception. Of course, eating is not as easy to sin with.
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tjm190
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I also believe I will trip over my shoelaces if and only if he wills it- but I still tie my shoes. We take our own will into account with almost all of our actions- why is this one mortally sinful?
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Timbothefiveth
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then why do couples who use NFP have such low divorce rates?
Because misuse of your sexual system is mortally sinful. Misuse of your shoelaces is not.
Also, if it’s possible to fall or not fall based on whether or not you tie your shoelaces, which we know it is, why would it also not be possible to deny conception via a condom?
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