Contraception hypothetical

[tjm190]

You previously wrote “up to 25%”, which is different from saying 2-25% since you didn’t acknowledge the low end of the number. Most every form of birth control has “user error”, (such as the woman on birth control pills who forgets to take them.) As a former NFP user, I can tell you that it can be incredibly tempting to “cut corners” on the abstinance required for avoiding pregnancy, especially if one or both spouses begin to question their reasons for avoiding pregnancy. I might consider failing to abstain the requirred amount of time to avoid pregnancy “user error” rather than a simply reflection of the effectiveness of NFP. Or I might even consider that a “success” for NFP because if a couple doesn’t have a good reason to avoid pregnancy, they have no business trying to avoid pregnancy. As I wrote previously, the abstinance required for effective NFP has a built-in correction for those who might misuse it.

Well mathematically I stated Failure rate≤ .25 , with the amended statement being .02≤ Failure rate≤ .25. Forgetting to take a birth control pill wouldn’t fall under user error, it would be discontinuing the method- the difference is such an error would not effect the failure rate of the treatment, just as “cutting the corners” on the abstinence wouldn’t count towards NFPs. I believe the high amount of deviation within NFPs failure rate is due to the couples ability to determine a woman’s infertile times with the needed precision.

 

[tjm190]

Point not made.

Couples using contraception can do that, in theory, but in practice most don’t or at least likely don’t regularly on a monthly basis.

Many common forms of contraception, (such as hormonal methods or IUDs), can’t be “turned off” immediately the next time the couple has sex. Barrier methods can, but habits are hard to change. Using contraception becomes a habit for many or most couples. NFP charting can become a habit, and I suppose avoidance during a woman’s fertile time might become habit for some couples. However, the sacrifice of abstaining encourages couples to re-assess the situation while couples who are not making such a sacrifice may be less inclined to think, talk and pray about it.

The point was that couples using contraception can be just as willing to accept God’s will as NFP users- the fact that some are not in immaterial to contraception itself. If contraception were intrinsically evil, this would not be true.

Please stop trying to guess what I would say or think. I would recognize that they are both reducing their odds of pregnancy* and* altering the beauty of the sexual act.

I was giving a way brief summary of the arguments against contraception I’ve seen here.

And I probably wouldn’t guess too much at their intention. I have known some very lovely, God-fearing Protestants who use contraception because they don’t know any better. I’ve also seen a Protestant pastor look at my large family with both a love and a little sadness while he told me, a virtual stranger at a funeral, how he wanted more children but how his wife didn’t. I have a wonderful Catholic friend whose husband made the decision for them that there would be no more children–no more discussion even though she wanted more. While we’re discussion how couples decide and discuss and pray about these things, the sad reality (that you don’t seem aware of) is often contraception is not a mutual decision. One person may be witholding the fertility the other spouse may desperately want.

And NFP may not be a mutual decision either- if one partner does not wish to engage in sexual activity except during the woman’s infertile times, that’s what happens.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Forgetting to take a birth control pill wouldn’t fall under user error, it would be discontinuing the method- the difference is such an error would not effect the failure rate of the treatment, just as “cutting the corners” on the abstinence wouldn’t count towards NFPs. …

FYI contraception.about.com/od/contraceptionfailure/p/mainreason.htm

Main Reason For Contraception Failure

By Dawn Stacey M.Ed, LMHC, About.com
Updated: March 07, 2007

According to a large-scale study conducted by leading sexual health researchers, as reported in the Guardian, one in every three babies conceived is by accident. Many of these pregnancies resulted from condoms breaking and because women missed taking their birth control pills.
This leads us to the the number one reason that accounts for the failure of birth control…
**#1 Reason for Contraceptive Failure - User Error: **

User error varies depending on which method of contraception is used. Birth control must be used consistently and according to instructions in order to attain maximum effectiveness. Certain methods are more prone to user error than others.
According to Professor Glasier, one of the report’s authors, "a lot of women aren’t terribly good at using contraception, the problem mainly being with the pill and condoms. There’s something in human nature which makes us not brilliant at taking pills every day.”

 

[tjm190]

No moreso than you.

Please show me where I have been biased in my analyses in this thread. If you still don’t understand why the burden of proof goes on those claiming contraception is harmful, just say so.

I hope so.

And yet you didn’t seem to think it was worth mentioning with the NFP couple.

There is something not right about this statement. One does not have contraceptive sex ASSUMING it will fail. A couple is purposly attempting to frustrate a process given to them by God. That is a problem. God doesn’t require us to have sex. But if we do, he expects us to do it the right way.

Your argument for contraceptive sex is based on a numbers game. You can not reduce sex to a “roll the dice” scenario.

But you can reduce anything with a probability attached to it to a “roll the dice” scenario. And when you do not desire a specific out come, it’s best to assure the odds are favorable.

True.

Again, you only decided to mention in discussing the side you find objectionable

You’ve got me here. I forgot. Many athiests use NFP. Of course some go to church, too. (Fact I found out from another thread.) You are correct. NFP methods are not tied to faith. However, it takes greater faith to have sex using NFP than a condom wouldn’t you suppose?

Just because the faithful do something doesn’t make it an action that praises God.

Eventually or in the present? A woman on the pill calls up her doctor and screams: “The )&#% pill didn’t work!” A wife tells her husband with a vasectomy… “I’m pregnant.” Does the husband respond with “that’s great, honey.” or “You have something else you want to tell me honey?”

Again, just because some couples using contraceptives respond one way does not mean contraception requires that mentality.

I understand your statement. But taking something into your own hands doesn’t make it moral, either. Like killing someone who has wronged you or someone else but he’s the police cheif’s son. Again. more preparation is needed for you to pick up on the difference.

But before “taking matters into your own hands” was sinful in and of itself! Of course it’s sinful sometimes depending on the scenario, but simply taking your will into account when acting does not deny God wills nor is it inherently sinful.

It does, but it looses value when the possibility of pregnancy is removed by the participants . See my CCC references. Until you understand this dual purpose of sex, we won’t be able to discuss this and get to an end.

… would i be here in the first place had I found the CCC’s argument sound?

I’m sorry if I came off as pretentious. I meant that I understand where you are coming from because I was once there too. I am firmly convinced now that I was fooling myself for many years with the same arguments you present. They are far from new.

And yet there’s still no firm answer to them.

There are two ways to look at this subject. Once I understood the TOB way, I saw it as good and saw contraception, masturbation, and fornication for what they are. Cheap immitations of true and total love.

Seems like a copout for a weak argument. I’ve taken several classes on morality and ethics, and never have I thought that I could not express the true arguments those classes had to offer concisely or without the person I’m debating taking the same class.

I really only want you to know that concept, too. We have a choice in how we view love. You really do have to “take all of it or none of it.” Yes, removing one tree does spoil this forrest. As I’ve told many here. One can not build the forrest one tree at a time. Logically, it makes no sense to anyone. One must accept the forrest in all it’s glory. To do so requires a journey, not a debate on a few stand alone subjects.

Well if there is a “all of it or none of it” mentality with respect to TOB, and I already have failed to accept one part of it, what purpose would educating myself in the other parts serve?

 

[tjm190]

FYI contraception.about.com/od/contraceptionfailure/p/mainreason.htm

I’m aware, did you even continue reading? I just stated that user error was one thing, but forgetting the treatment all together would not count towards the failure rate of that product.

 

[gardenswithkids]

The point was that couples using contraception can be just as willing to accept God’s will as NFP users- the fact that some are not in immaterial to contraception itself. If contraception were intrinsically evil, this would not be true. …

Being willing to accept God’s will is slightly different from accepting God’s will.

Someone may be willing to accept God’s will but be unaware of what God’s will is. It may be that He has simply not yet revealed His will to us. A number of things, like bad habits, sin, and ignorance can cloud our vision so that we don’t recognize God’s will.

Couples using contraception might be just as* willing* to accept God’s will than NFP users. (Maybe even more willing occassionally. NFP can be used for the wrong reasons and abstinance can be forced without mutual consent as you noted. Sin happens.) However, the couple using contraception that may want to and be willing to follow God’s will, are not completely following God’s design for sex and marriage in their use on contraception.

As I wrote, I know some lovely Protestants. My husband has a deeply religious relative who is anti-Catholic. Some of the less religious Protestants in his family think she’s a judgmental, religious nut. But I really like her. I know when she shares her faith with me it is because she is worried about the salvation of my soul. She wants to do God’s will, but much of what she’s learned in the Protestant churches she’s attended is simply wrong. And some of it is right. I believe she does God’s will to the best of her ability. She’s willing, but she’s often slighly off-base.

 

[tjm190]

Being willing to accept God’s will is slightly different from accepting God’s will.

Someone may be willing to accept God’s will but be unaware of what God’s will is. It may be that He has simply not yet revealed His will to us. A number of things, like bad habits, sin, and ignorance can cloud our vision so that we don’t recognize God’s will.

Couples using contraception might be just as* willing* to accept God’s will than NFP users. (Maybe even more willing occassionally. NFP can be used for the wrong reasons and abstinance can be forced without mutual consent as you noted. Sin happens.) However, the couple using contraception that may want to and be willing to follow God’s will, are not completely following God’s design for sex and marriage in their use on contraception.

As I wrote, I know some lovely Protestants. My husband has a deeply religious relative who is anti-Catholic. Some of the less religious Protestants in his family think she’s a judgmental, religious nut. But I really like her. I know when she shares her faith with me it is because she is worried about the salvation of my soul. She wants to do God’s will, but much of what she’s learned in the Protestant churches she’s attended is simply wrong. And some of it is right. I believe she does God’s will to the best of her ability. She’s willing, but she’s often slighly off-base.

… you wrote an entire post based on the assumption that your side was correct

 

[gardenswithkids]

… you wrote an entire post based on the assumption that your side was correct

Did you bother reading it? Roughly half of my post didn’t even mention contraception or NFP.

Being willing to accept God’s will is slightly different from accepting God’s will.

Someone may be willing to accept God’s will but be unaware of what God’s will is. It may be that He has simply not yet revealed His will to us. A number of things, like bad habits, sin, and ignorance can cloud our vision so that we don’t recognize God’s will.

Couples using contraception might be just as* willing* to accept God’s will than NFP users. (Maybe even more willing occassionally. NFP can be used for the wrong reasons and abstinance can be forced without mutual consent as you noted. Sin happens.) However, the couple using contraception that may want to and be willing to follow God’s will, are not completely following God’s design for sex and marriage in their use on contraception.

As I wrote, I know some lovely Protestants. My husband has a deeply religious relative who is anti-Catholic. Some of the less religious Protestants in his family think she’s a judgmental, religious nut. But I really like her. I know when she shares her faith with me it is because she is worried about the salvation of my soul. She wants to do God’s will, but much of what she’s learned in the Protestant churches she’s attended is simply wrong. And some of it is right. I believe she does God’s will to the best of her ability. She’s willing, but she’s often slighly off-base.

 

[tjm190]

Did you bother reading it? Roughly half of my post didn’t even mention contraception or NFP.

The point of the post was that contraception was contrary to God’s will, or that’s what it seemed to be.

 

[gardenswithkids]

The point of the post was that contraception was contrary to God’s will, or that’s what it seemed to be.

People who want to follow God’s will may not know God’s will. (And yes, I firmly believe that contraception is not part of God’s plan for marriage.)

Right now I’m pretty sure that it is God’s will for my family to have dinner and that I’m the one who should fix them something to eat.

 

[tjm190]

People who want to follow God’s will may not know God’s will. (And yes, I firmly believe that contraception is not part of God’s plan for marriage.)

Right now I’m pretty sure that it is God’s will for my family to have dinner and that I’m the one who should fix them something to eat.

Agreed, but the same can be said for anything- my point was directed at your prior claim that contraceptive users actively sought to deny the will of God.
Have fun with your cooking!

 

[newbetx]

The point of the post was that contraception was contrary to God’s will, or that’s what it seemed to be.

Which is true, but not accepted by you.

Please show me where I have been biased in my analyses in this thread. If you still don’t understand why the burden of proof goes on those claiming contraception is harmful, just say so.

… would i be here in the first place had I found the CCC’s argument sound?

Well if there is a “all of it or none of it” mentality with respect to TOB, and I already have failed to accept one part of it, what purpose would educating myself in the other parts serve?

Only you can answer that question.

 

[tjm190]

Which is true, but not accepted by you…

Asserting yourself to be correct again? Tsk tsk…

Only you can answer that question.

Would I have questioned church teaching if it’s argument had seemed sound? Only I can answer that?
Okay- No, I would not

 

[tjm190]

Listening to one of the MP3’s, although if I find it interferes with studying it might have to go on hold

 

[Good_Daughter]

But before “taking matters into your own hands” was sinful in and of itself! Of course it’s sinful sometimes depending on the scenario, but simply taking your will into account when acting does not deny God wills nor is it inherently sinful.

Can you argue that it could be anything but sinful to try turning normal, healthy, useful human fertility into infertility?

Sometimes we do it gently with barriers, but often we strive to “break” a healthy bodily function with chemicals and surgeries.

I can buy that it’s within God’s will for us to heal diseases and fix abnormalities, but normal fertility, in and of itself, is always a good thing. How do we justify trying to thwart it without offending the One who gives it to us?

 

[tjm190]

Can you argue that it could be anything but sinful to try turning normal, healthy, useful human fertility into infertility?

Sometimes we do it gently with barriers, but often we strive to “break” a healthy bodily function with chemicals and surgeries.

I can buy that it’s within God’s will for us to heal diseases and fix abnormalities, but normal fertility, in and of itself, is always a good thing. How do we justify trying to thwart it without offending the One who gives it to us?

If one does not desire the results of fertility then yes, it makes sense that it should be counteracted. God gave me my immune system which was built to destroy all foreign entities in my body- not taking into account that I may one require one of those to survive. If you had an organ transplant, your immune system would recognize that new organ as a call to action. Your immune systems destruction of said organ is what it is meant to do! Any action taken to prevent this could not be said to be “fixing” the immune system, it’s doing its job perfectly well. Yet immunosuppressants are needed- why? Because the immune system doesn’t have the whole picture. It doesn’t take the entire situation into account when it decides to attack your new organ. But the benefit of sentience, is that we can alter a natural process so that we are benefited as a whole, even if it is doing it’s job perfectly well.
The same can be said of the reproductive system. The reproductive system wants to make people- and it does a good job. And that is fulfills an essential role- I mean, think about it- we are, right now, at this moment roughly 70 years from extinction as a species. Without reproduction, no human on the face of the Earth would exist, and soon we would cease to exist. But the reproductive system in it’s attempts to ensure the continuity of our species, does not take individual circumstances into account- but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t. We don’t always want the reproductive system to do it’s job, just as we don’t always want the immune system to do it’s job, even when it’s doing this job perfectly well.
If God is to be offended by contraception, then why not by other times when the processes he has created our subjected to our will?

 

[newbetx]

Listening to one of the MP3’s, although if I find it interferes with studying it might have to go on hold

It’s not good to study two things at once.

Which set? Riccardo or Altier?

 

[tjm190]

It’s not good to study two things at once.

Which set? Riccardo or Altier?

Discovered that- got through set one but then went back to my quantum mechanics.

And it’s riccardo

 

[newbetx]

Asserting yourself to be correct again? Tsk tsk…

Would I have questioned church teaching if it’s argument had seemed sound? Only I can answer that?
Okay- No, I would not

Well, If I am repeating the Church’s position on ABC
And you claim I may not claim it as a correct position, then you are basically claiming the church’s position to be incorrect. We have agreement there.

As a Catholic, as you claim to be at least some of the time, you should be accepting that position. If you choose not to, you need to prove the church wrong. Not us prove to you that She is correct.

We have told you were to go look. My statement is that contraception arguments can not be made on a bullet by bullet comparison. They are intertwined with the other aspects of love and marriage.

 

[tjm190]

Well, If I am repeating the Church’s position on ABC
And you claim I may not claim it as a correct position, then you are basically claiming the church’s position to be incorrect. We have agreement there.

As a Catholic, as you claim to be at least some of the time, you should be accepting that position. If you choose not to, you need to prove the church wrong. Not us prove to you that She is correct.

We have told you were to go look. My statement is that contraception arguments can not be made on a bullet by bullet comparison. They are intertwined with the other aspects of love and marriage.

Just a general rule- if something is being debated, don’t make any statements that require your view to be true- I’m sure your familiar with a circular argument.