Contraception is just like bulemia!

[Hitetlen]

luvmykids:

You act like you know God and are making assumptions about Him as if He were human.

Not really. I act as a rational human, who examines this concept you believe in, and talk about. Regardless whether God exists or not, the idea about him does exist, and as a totally human concept it cannot escape rational examination and criticism. If the picture you paint is incoherent, I can point it out. Your defense: that the picture you painted cannot be understood by me is nonsense. Whatever God is or is not, you attribute certain characteristics to him, and I am fully able to examine your hypothesis and criticize it.

luvmykids:

God is God and only He fully understands His plan.

It is also funny that believers assert left and right thet THEY know what God’s alleged plan is, but when an atheist points out the errors and inconsistencies in their utterings, they say that I am not able to fathom his plans.

luvmykids:

And since He created you, He is your God too, whether you recognize Him or not. Assuming that God has responsibility towards anything or anyone is limiting Him and therefore He would not be God.

Even believers understand that God is limited: for example they say that God is not capable of lying. So your statement is meaningless.

luvmykids:

I think one of the hardest things for humans to understand is that because God loves us so much, He gave us free will. We are not His puppets in some puppet show. He has a greater plan for us. We have this free will, and because He loves us so much He created us whether we choose Him or not. He is all knowing and knows what we will choose, yet He created us anyway. It is part of His divine plan, but it is still OUR choice. You cannot possible understand His love for us nor His divine plan, because you are not God.

And you DO understand his plan? Which is throwing the unbelievers into hell to torture them until infinity? I cannot understand that you (or anyone else) would dare to say that a being like this is “loving”. If this is the manifestation of his “love”, then it would be better if he hated us. After all you also say that God hates Satan, but does not torture him; rather lets him roam free to do more “mischief” as he pleases.

luvmykids:

An experiement is something done to determine what a result will be. God already knows the results of everything. I would not call His creations an “experiment”. He did not destroy anything, He is the creator. He is not admitting any error. I have no idea where you could come up with that logic. God can bring good out of anything. Once again, part of His divine plan.

No kididng: drowning those millions of “innocent” children (to borrow the Catholic rhetoric) is not destruction??? And again you seem to believe you are privy to his “divine” plan…

 

[Aquarius]

gardenswithkids:

Who said it is always okay to use man made items for ther intended purpose? Humans can think up all sorts of horrible devices that should never be used. The earlier point was we should use the things created by God for the purpose He intened.

Luv brought up the notion that chewing gum was using it for its intended purpose. I used the condom example to show that this was not a reasonable response given what she has said earlier.

She was concentrating on the gum rather than the action of thwarting the nourishment process.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Aquarius:

Here’s an example of where the Church teachings run into trouble. Someone stands up and tells the rest of us our actions are not fulfilling.

The rest of us look around and say, “Who? Me? Sorry, they are fulfilling. How on earth would you know my situation?” Then we shrug, and ignore the guy.

So maybe you find certain actions fulfilling. That does make them right. A bulemic who doesn’t see the problem in binging and purging still has a problem.

By the way, why do you care if we believe contraception is wrong?

 

[Aquarius]

gardenswithkids:

So maybe you find certain actions fulfilling. That does make them right. A bulemic who doesn’t see the problem in binging and purging still has a problem.

By the way, why do you care if we believe contraception is wrong?

So, you agree we are incapable of telling others what they find fulfilling?

We clash in the arena of social policy. I have sufficient respect for the opposition to discuss our differences.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hitetlen:

… that the picture you painted cannot be understood by me is nonsense. Whatever God is or is not, you attribute certain characteristics to him, and I am fully able to examine your hypothesis and criticize it.

It is also funny that believers assert left and right thet THEY know what God’s alleged plan is, but when an atheist points out the errors and inconsistencies in their utterings, they say that I am not able to fathom his plans…

You cover a lot of territory that is way off this discussion. But I believe that if you really wish to understand this you can… If however, you only desire to criticize us and our beliefs, then you probably won’t ever understand them. So if what you want is to understand, I suggest you take the many points that your brought up here that aren’t related to the thread topic and start a new thread.

 

[manualman]

Seems I’ve struck a nerve, hmm?

I’m often amused at how pro-contraceptive folks get quite heated in arguing that there is absolutely no moral difference between a condom and NFP. But durned if you can get them to give NFP a try! Even when the reliability of NFP is not in question.

Why is that? I’ll tell you why. Because in NFP, you need to make a sacrifice in order to avoid pregnancy (whatever your reason). Those wishing to lose weight face a similar decision. Sacrifice the amount of pleasureable indulgence they are used to (analagous to NFP abstaining from sex for several days a month) or increase their activity level (analagous to accepting the likelyhood of more kids). The third choice is to contracept: grab the pleasure, but block the result (binge/purge).

The straw man many try to knock down always revolves around menopausal couples, hysterectomies and the assertion that married sex must be fertile. That’s dishonest baitNswitch. Church teaching does NOT require the couple to be fertile. It requires that the couple do nothing to intentionally sever the potential procreative outcome from their unitive act. 60 year olds and thsoe with no ovaries can go at it as much as they want without committing this sin. (Much like those irritating people we all know who eat LOTS of whatever they want, never do formal excercise and don’t gain weight: grrr)

What John Paul II gave us in the Theology of the Body was a new insight that contraception doesn’t just block the procreative nature of sex, it is violent to the unitive nature as well. The act cannot be unitive when one or both parties has a mindset closed off to children. That kind of sex isn’t a mutually giving event, it is subtly changed into a mutually TAKING event.

Those who assume that popular opinion will eventually force the hand of the church ought to read a little more history. If the church really worked that way, we’d all be Arians…

P.S. Gum has nothing to do with eating in my experience. It’s about having nice breath and/or a fidget habit like chewing a pen or biting your fingernails. Do you REALLY find gum satisfying like a nice steak or a chocolate chip cookie? No way.

 

[Aquarius]

manualman:

Seems I’ve struck a nerve, hmm?

I’m often amused at how pro-contraceptive folks get quite heated in arguing that there is absolutely no moral difference between a condom and NFP. But durned if you can get them to give NFP a try! Even when the reliability of NFP is not in question.

Why is that? I’ll tell you why. Because in NFP, you need to make a sacrifice in order to avoid pregnancy (whatever your reason). Those wishing to lose weight face a similar decision. Sacrifice the amount of pleasureable indulgence they are used to (analagous to NFP abstaining from sex for several days a month) or increase their activity level (analagous to accepting the likelyhood of more kids). The third choice is to contracept: grab the pleasure, but block the result (binge/purge).

The straw man many try to knock down always revolves around menopausal couples, hysterectomies and the assertion that married sex must be fertile. That’s dishonest baitNswitch. Church teaching does NOT require the couple to be fertile. It requires that the couple do nothing to intentionally sever the potential procreative outcome from their unitive act. 60 year olds and thsoe with no ovaries can go at it as much as they want without committing this sin. (Much like those irritating people we all know who eat LOTS of whatever they want, never do formal excercise and don’t gain weight: grrr)

What John Paul II gave us in the Theology of the Body was a new insight that contraception doesn’t just block the procreative nature of sex, it is violent to the unitive nature as well. The act cannot be unitive when one or both parties has a mindset closed off to children. That kind of sex isn’t a mutually giving event, it is subtly changed into a mutually TAKING event.

Those who assume that popular opinion will eventually force the hand of the church ought to read a little more history. If the church really worked that way, we’d all be Arians…

P.S. Gum has nothing to do with eating in my experience. It’s about having nice breath and/or a fidget habit like chewing a pen or biting your fingernails. Do you REALLY find gum satisfying like a nice steak or a chocolate chip cookie? No way.

If you don’t find gum as satisfying as a steak, maybe it’s because you are using it to thwart the natrural nourishment.

Lets picket Wrigleys.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Aquarius:

So, you agree we are incapable of telling others what they find fulfilling?

We clash in the arena of social policy. I have sufficient respect for the opposition to discuss our differences.

Well, I tend to believe St. Augustine’s statement, “All are restless until we rest in Thee.” But I have personally found pleasure in the past doing things I now recognize to be sinful, so I understand how someone may consider something “fulfilling” which may or may not be right. It is risky to tell others how they feel.

I’m glad to learn why you came to this forum. It took me several months to become a senior member and I see you got to that status in just a matter of days. I strongly suggest that you consider opening your own thread to discuss the areas of social policy that you disagree with. It appears that our teachings against contraception is one area where you disagree. I’m glad that you are willing to discuss and debate with us, but please be respectful of our opinions. By the way, I used contraception for several years and I know how difficult it can be to understand this teaching. But as you learn our teachings, even if you don’t agree, you will see that these teachings are consistent.

Welcome to Catholic Answers forums. And may you find rest here.

 

[luvmykids]

Aquarius:

So, you agree we are incapable of telling others what they find fulfilling?

We clash in the arena of social policy. I have sufficient respect for the opposition to discuss our differences.

I just want to clarify that I did not mean it to sound like I was saying that YOUR life or anyone’s on here wasn’t fulfilling. I wouldn’t know that unless you expressed it. What I was saying was a generalization about the people who are sleeping around, adulterers, divorced people, etc… This is my assumption alone, based on those actions. Those people are obviously not fulfilled if they are doing these things. If they were fulfilled, they would stay with the person that they were fulfilled with. I was trying to say that the stats for married couples who use NFP say that the divorce rate is lower than the general population. Never did I say in my post that YOU were not fulfilled. So don’t take it personally.

 

[manualman]

I guess I have never tried the right gum

If you are seriously saying that gum is a means to enjoy much of the pleasure of eating without actually getting significant calories…

Well, I guess I’ll have to chew on that one for a while.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Hey manualman! Good to have you back. I was wondering where you went. It’s not like you to post and run.

 

[cynic]

manualman:

. The act cannot be unitive when one or both parties has a mindset closed off to children. That kind of sex isn’t a mutually giving event, it is subtly changed into a mutually TAKING event.

.

there’s the contradiction, a couple using NFP are also of a mindset closed off to children otherwise they would not endeavor to reduce the chances of conception. A couple who are over 50, or sterile, may not want children also. Should they be doing that then?

You seem to think that wanting children is a necceessary part of wholesome desires (as opposed to lust). I’m quite happy to accept contraception as a sin because it interfers with the BODY, but are we supposed to be thinking about reproduction while doing it now, instead of our spouses? as if that were some neccessity of real love, and without thinking about having children it somehow becomes selfish…

 

[luvmykids]

cynic:

there’s the contradiction, a couple using NFP are also of a mindset closed off to children otherwise they would not endeavor to reduce the chances of conception. A couple who are over 50, or sterile, may not want children also. Should they be doing that then?

You seem to think that wanting children is a necceessary part of wholesome desires (as opposed to lust). I’m quite happy to accept contraception as a sin because it interfers with the BODY, but are we supposed to be thinking about reproduction while doing it now, instead of our spouses? as if that were some neccessity of real love, and without thinking about having children it somehow becomes selfish…

You don’t have to be thinking about having children, just open to it if it’s God’s will for you. It’s not all about having children… It is a unitive act as well.

 

[manualman]

Yup, what luv said.

Additionally, the NFP couple has never taken a direct action to sever the link. The contracepting couple has. NFP has a built-in device (those desirable fertile days when she is feeling frisky and you just can’t do anything about it) which tends to self-correct the couple to the proper knowledge of the connection between sex and life (and to wonder why is it we are trying to avoid pregnancy?). The contracepting couple has no such nudge back and, to the contrary, gets a short term apparent benefit of the pleasure of exploiting those deliriously nice fertile days instead of abstaining. But without the life openness, the focus of the sex becomes MERELY the pleasure, which encourages selfishness within sex and throughout the marriage. This is, again, like bulemia where the negative effects of purging become more and more serious with repetition.

 

[Hitetlen]

manualman:

But without the life openness, the focus of the sex becomes MERELY the pleasure, which encourages selfishness within sex and throughout the marriage.

This is yet another one of those totally unfounded, unproven and unprovable utterances that are so prevalent in such threads. How dare you to degrade other people’s feelings you know nothing about? How can you assert that their feelings are selfish? The most unselfish type of sex is the one where each partner concentrates ONLY on the other one’s pleasure… and that is the much maligned oral sex, which is considered sinful when the male is on the receiving end. And you can put that one into the bank.

 

[Hitetlen]

gardenswithkids:

You cover a lot of territory that is way off this discussion. But I believe that if you really wish to understand this you can… If however, you only desire to criticize us and our beliefs, then you probably won’t ever understand them. So if what you want is to understand, I suggest you take the many points that your brought up here that aren’t related to the thread topic and start a new thread.

Good point, thanks. It is hard to stay on the track, when the answers start to stray, and probably I am as guilty of it as the next person.

 

[Aquarius]

gardenswithkids:

Well, I tend to believe St. Augustine’s statement, “All are restless until we rest in Thee.” But I have personally found pleasure in the past doing things I now recognize to be sinful, so I understand how someone may consider something “fulfilling” which may or may not be right. It is risky to tell others how they feel.

I’m glad to learn why you came to this forum. It took me several months to become a senior member and I see you got to that status in just a matter of days. I strongly suggest that you consider opening your own thread to discuss the areas of social policy that you disagree with. It appears that our teachings against contraception is one area where you disagree. I’m glad that you are willing to discuss and debate with us, but please be respectful of our opinions. By the way, I used contraception for several years and I know how difficult it can be to understand this teaching. But as you learn our teachings, even if you don’t agree, you will see that these teachings are consistent.

Welcome to Catholic Answers forums. And may you find rest here.

Just remember that rigorous disagreement over opinions does not indicate a lack of respect. It actually demonstrates a great deal of respect for the opposition.

 

[Aquarius]

luvmykids:

I just want to clarify that I did not mean it to sound like I was saying that YOUR life or anyone’s on here wasn’t fulfilling. I wouldn’t know that unless you expressed it. What I was saying was a generalization about the people who are sleeping around, adulterers, divorced people, etc… This is my assumption alone, based on those actions. Those people are obviously not fulfilled if they are doing these things. If they were fulfilled, they would stay with the person that they were fulfilled with. I was trying to say that the stats for married couples who use NFP say that the divorce rate is lower than the general population. Never did I say in my post that YOU were not fulfilled. So don’t take it personally.

I didn’t take it personally. I was just one of the class you referenced. However, never feel any need to hold back on me. I can take it.

 

[Aquarius]

manualman:

Yup, what luv said.

Additionally, the NFP couple has never taken a direct action to sever the link. The contracepting couple has. NFP has a built-in device (those desirable fertile days when she is feeling frisky and you just can’t do anything about it) which tends to self-correct the couple to the proper knowledge of the connection between sex and life (and to wonder why is it we are trying to avoid pregnancy?). The contracepting couple has no such nudge back and, to the contrary, gets a short term apparent benefit of the pleasure of exploiting those deliriously nice fertile days instead of abstaining. But without the life openness, the focus of the sex becomes MERELY the pleasure, which encourages selfishness within sex and throughout the marriage. This is, again, like bulemia where the negative effects of purging become more and more serious with repetition.

So, what’s wrong with mere pleasure?

Do you chew gum?

 

[Balance]

Hitetlen:

How can you assert that their feelings are selfish? The most unselfish type of sex is the one where each partner concentrates ONLY on the other one’s pleasure… and that is the much maligned oral sex, which is considered sinful when the male is on the receiving end. And you can put that one into the bank.

oral sex is not “considered sinful” as part of foreplay - there’s no part of the body which is “unkissable”.
if it carries on to orgasm, for the man, then, yep, it’s pretty selfish, isn’t it? selfish in that it’s all about him and his pleasure, (or her and her pleasure). on the face of it, it seems unselfish on his partner’s part - she’s concentrating on him and his pleasure, right, not at all on her own - BUT that’s not what sex is about. sex is a mutual intimacy.
and of course, oral sex isn’t open to conception, again, one of the aims or purposes of sex is cut off or blocked - sex is for bonding and babies.

we need to ask the question of our hearts - how does a sexual act make us feel deep in our heart - that’s normally a good indicator. there’s often an uneasiness in people’s hearts who are pursuing different choices in sexual activity about some of those choices. In the depth, in the quiet, of our heart, what is going on? what does our gut say? well, it feels good. and under that? it feels good but… and under that? it feels good but I wonder if there’s something a bit askew. and under that? actually, I feel like this is something less than it could be. and under that? I feel selfish, or used, or like I’m just acting, or that this is nothing that’s going to last. we have to be honest with ourself, with our heart and soul, and with God.

OK, sermon over… grin