Contraception - Ladies - Men

[Dokimas]

I do not see where you got the idea that Jesus is saying it is “wise” not to have children. “Woe” indicates the suffering and pain that will occur at that time, but that does not mean mothers should avoid children in order to avoid pain. Jesus showed us that we should not fear suffering for the sake of love.

I can see where you read this as a doomsday prophesy, but keep in mind Jesus was speaking specifically of Jerusalem’s destruction, when the Jewish people run to the hills - which is what they did, and why we have the Dead Sea Scrolls. If you read the passage further, Jesus says:

“They will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken as captives to all the Gentiles; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Luke 21:24)

It seems as though when Jesus says “all the scriptures are fulfilled” He was referring to the Jewish scriptures, which were the only ones that existed in the time of Jesus. Considering many Christians have Gentile, rather than Jewish ancestry, the idea of a “time of the Gentiles” seems pretty contemporary.

Maybe you’re correct. However, it sounds a bit like Revelation. Is it possible, as seems sometimes happens in the Word of God, a prophecy covers more than one event?

I had at least one on CAF tell me that having children was a way of increasing the CC. There’s plenty of people in our world that need Jesus.

Do you find any verse where Jesus encourages families to keep having children? He sure loved children, but is there any real indication His theology on the subject was the same as the CC’s theology?

Daniel’s 70th week of Daniel 9 doesn’t seem to be fulfilled yet.

 

[rwillenborg]

Uhm, my source isn’t the manufacturer, it’s the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Oral contraceptions are nearly as good as abstinence in preventing pregnancy!

Uhm, okay fine. I don’t care what the AAFP says.
It’s STILL small consolation when you’re the one.

(PS - where do you think the AAFP gets their numbers anyway? Do you think they’re out funding their own studies on the efficacy of oral contraceptives?)

 

[Zatzat]

I’m glad we can agree on something.

Yes, I understand this is not your position and you were being sarcastic. I believe the cry of overpopulation stems from the governments that want less people in the world making them easier to control.

This site breaks down overpopulation “Barney-style”, that’s very simple for those who don’t understand. One section actually uses mathematics to show how the entire worlds population fits into a land mass the size of Texas with each person getting a 33’ by 33’ plot of land.

overpopulationisamyth.com/

Yes, there is physically enough land to sustain a larger population. Oddly, the question you’re not addressing, is that the earth cannot sustain a much larger population.

 

[Zatzat]

Uhm, okay fine. I don’t care what the AAFP says.
It’s STILL small consolation when you’re the one.

(PS - where do you think the AAFP gets their numbers anyway? Do you think they’re out funding their own studies on the efficacy of oral contraceptives?)

You only care what your subjective opinion says?

In your mind, a efficacy of 99.9% is poor? Have you considered that the AAFP arrived at their conclusion after analyzing 40 years of data and tens of millions of women having regularly taken oral contraceptives?

Or do you figure they just called up one pill manufacturer and asked them to throw a few numbers at them for their interweb site?

Do you also consider a cure rate for a deadly disease of 99.9% to be a poor prognosis?

I know, I know…you know best. What do a bunch of doctors analyzing 40 years of data with tens of millions of subjects…what do they know?

 

[Zatzat]

…as far as natural resources go, we have the same amount of water now, as when the world began…the Creator gave us our brains for a reason. we can figure out a way to increase resources., walkerton is a nice town!

Walkerton population - 5000

Starting May 15, 2000

At least seven people died directly from drinking the E. coli contaminated water, who might have been saved if the Walkerton Public Utilities Commission had admitted to contaminated water sooner, and about 2,500 became ill.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_Tragedy

You just don’t get it do you? It’s not the space, it’s the sustainability. I do not envy your ’ don’t worry, be happy, the Lord will provide ’ mind set.

Sure there’s physically plenty of water, but how much of it is fresh, clean, potable and in areas where populations actually live and can be consumed without uber expensive chemical treatment and processing?

How many Walkertons will there have to be until people like you start to understand the problem?

 

[KathleenGee]

What I get is that the population in Japan is decreasing to the point it is not reproducing itself. I like Japanese people…

And that we are on the edge of pandemic plagues that can wipe out millions faster because of global transportation.

And we have rogue countries that think nothing of wiping out the enemy…we are anticipating the depopulation of the world.

I don’t look at the Bible and look at it for myself. I read the Bible and reflect with it on the world around me. I look at the Holy Family and see a beautiful image of domestic humanity.

In times past, people got married to have a family, to raise children. Today many people are still immature and look at marriage to get toys, see their relationship as plausible and if it fails, so be it…without any understanding of the ramifications a divorced family has and how it burdens those who have to care for those from a broken home. The Bible doesn’t say anything then about these problems???

 

[KathleenGee]

When people say it isn’t in the Bible…that is their take, but to argue in endless circles is wasting precious time that could be used in serving the Lord.

 

[Justin1982]

Sure there’s physically plenty of water, but how much of it is fresh, clean, potable and in areas where populations actually live and can be consumed without uber expensive chemical treatment and processing?

Yes and how much of the drinking water today is contaminated by hormones from your contraceptives? Which also just happens to affect our food supply (i.e. fish).

wnd.com/?pageId=42520

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, we are seeing the effects on fish and other life from contraception as well as pharma that was being emptied in household drains.

Again, I would never take man made chemicals that affect my life giving organs. The pill has actively been in use only since the late 60’s.

 

[Justin1982]

Yes, we are seeing the effects on fish and other life from contraception as well as pharma that was being emptied in household drains.

Again, I would never take man made chemicals that affect my life giving organs. The pill has actively been in use only since the late 60’s.

I understand your point of view and I share the same point of view but a simple google search will show you that it is a major problem that affects everybody. Just because you are not taking it doesn’t mean its being forced on you though drinking water because people have to have their contraceptives.

 

[Zatzat]

Yes, we are seeing the effects on fish and other life from contraception as well as pharma that was being emptied in household drains.

Again, I would never take man made chemicals that affect my life giving organs. The pill has actively been in use only since the late 60’s.

Let’s see if you still feel that way when faced with a disease that will kill you and the only proven and effective cure is by introducing a foreign, man made chemical into your body.

My wife is alive today solely because of two expensive drugs that destroyed the cancerous tumours that had invaded her body.

 

[Justin1982]

You are correct Jesus didn’t say ‘blessed are the barren’ but He didn’t condemn it either.

Don’t forget about the religious orders, of course they would not exist if it was sin to not have children.

I would like this discussion to continue so I will open this in another thread because I fear we have strayed a bit from the original poster.

 

[Justin1982]

Let’s see if you still feel that way when faced with a disease that will kill you and the only proven and effective cure is by introducing a foreign, man made chemical into your body.

My wife is alive today solely because of two expensive drugs that destroyed the cancerous tumours that had invaded her body.

But did these chemical purposely alter her reproductive system, understand that the Catholic understanding is that babies are not a disease. Yet you want to connect reproduction with cancer.

 

[Justin1982]

I will try and curtail this thread by being shut down by moving into the thread listed below as I fear we are a shade off topic. Thanks.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6761179#post6761179

 

[anns82]

Maybe you’re correct. However, it sounds a bit like Revelation. Is it possible, as seems sometimes happens in the Word of God, a prophecy covers more than one event?

I had at least one on CAF tell me that having children was a way of increasing the CC. There’s plenty of people in our world that need Jesus.

Do you find any verse where Jesus encourages families to keep having children? He sure loved children, but is there any real indication His theology on the subject was the same as the CC’s theology?

Daniel’s 70th week of Daniel 9 doesn’t seem to be fulfilled yet.

Yes and no. I think you’re right in that some prophecies may have parallels in generations (interesting how history repeats itself), but that does not change the fact that Jesus was saying “woe to those with children” not “do not have children.” Just because we live in difficult times (as has everyone throughout history) does not mean we should not bring more children (sources of love) into the world.

I would recommend looking at Mt 19:3-8, where Jesus was questioned by the Pharisees about divorce and marriage. In his response he showed that marriage was established “In the beginning,” meaning in Genesis. If we are to look at Genesis for our understanding of God’s intention for marriage, then we are to understand that the command to “be fruitful and multiply” was not just for Adam and Eve, but is a command for all of humanity.

If we believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish law, the fullness of God’s Truth, then Jesus wants us to fulfill God’s will for life and marriage, not just go by man’s definition of marriage. The Catholic approach to each life is that it is a source of unconditional love. Not only is it a source of love for the parents, but the child will also grow to be the source of love for his/her spouse, which could lead to more children, and expand this love even further. If God is Love, and we are made in His image, then we are to look at each life as also an image of Love. Not just another mouth to feed.

 

[KathleenGee]

I put my confidence in the Lord…atleast try to.

I drink water. I don’t have a filter system. I don’t drink the creekwater behind my house, though.

The other day we studied Thessalonians…and the main message is to keep our eyes on Christ about future times that have been referred to in some posts.

I said I take a prescription. I am not condemning all pharma. But if I am healthy, why take something artificial that will affect my endocrine system, and especially that which gives and nutures life. It paid off with most healthy infants.

 

[Justin1982]

I drink water. I don’t have a filter system. I don’t drink the creekwater behind my house, though.

What I’m saying is that these studies are about the drinking water, your tap water and it’s there too. It kind of works like smokers and people who use chew tobacco; those who smoke force everyone around them to deal with the smoke while those who chew tobacco keep their cancer to themselves.

 

[anns82]

Yes and no. I think you’re right in that some prophecies may have parallels in generations (interesting how history repeats itself), but that does not change the fact that Jesus was saying “woe to those with children” not “do not have children.” Just because we live in difficult times (as has everyone throughout history) does not mean we should not bring more children (sources of love) into the world.

I would recommend looking at Mt 19:3-8, where Jesus was questioned by the Pharisees about divorce and marriage. In his response he showed that marriage was established “In the beginning,” meaning in Genesis. If we are to look at Genesis for our understanding of God’s intention for marriage, then we are to understand that the command to “be fruitful and multiply” was not just for Adam and Eve, but is a command for all of humanity.

If we believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish law, the fullness of God’s Truth, then Jesus wants us to fulfill God’s will for life and marriage, not just go by man’s definition of marriage. The Catholic approach to each life is that it is a source of unconditional love. Not only is it a source of love for the parents, but the child will also grow to be the source of love for his/her spouse, which could lead to more children, and expand this love even further. If God is Love, and we are made in His image, then we are to look at each life as also an image of Love. Not just another mouth to feed.

I just moved this to the other thread

 

[KathleenGee]

Justin,

Acknowledged.

 

[mark_a]

I had at least one on CAF tell me that having children was a way of increasing the CC.

That’s what usually comes from the culture of killing, Christian and otherwise, that we live in.

Do you find any verse where Jesus encourages families to keep having children? He sure loved children, but is there any real indication His theology on the subject was the same as the CC’s theology?

Jesus was a Jew. The Catholic Church’s teaching about family comes from Jewish Tradition. In my opinion, Jesus’ silence on the subject means the God’s view about Onanism has not changed.