Contraception OK?

[Ice]

CatholicMatthew:

Ice:

To me your position is clear, but i think that you’re not getting to the point. You show lack of medical knowledge and understanding. I’m saying this for i’m a doctor myself (my husband also). I think you really need to study Physiology of woman’s reproductive system (Pathologic Physiology as well) to be a better teacher of Prolife. Many people have different problems with health - and you can’t ignore them neither force your opinion to them.

I am not forcing my opinion on them I am merely stating a series of facts and applying them to the principle of double effect which would provide the only means that a contraceptive could be used.

It fails in that one of the qualifications for its use is that no moral means must be available to treat the problem…check out www.popepaulvi.com and read about NaproTech and maybe even order the book or contact Dr. Hilgers. You can also read the book Fertility Cycles and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon www.ccli.org I have a feeling you would be enlightened but alternatives that are available.
It fails another qualification in that the good must be greater than the possible evil side effect. Discomfort vs. death or disfigurement of a child ??? Can you tell me that a use of the pill can prevent something greater than death of an innocent?

Just because a woman wants something (a normal life) while she is dealing with a medical condition does not mean she can do anything (morally speaking) to achieve it. A person taking a narcotic for a medical reduction of pain from an accident cannot simply go driving without endangering a life. That would be irresponsible and immoral.

There are many things in life that I want but I do not have a right to them. Morality isn’t based upon what people want but upon God’s dictates. A question…what diseases does the Pill cure? The Ortho Tri-Cyclen shows the only indication for it (manufacturers use) is for prevention of pregnancy.

Actually not
ccli.org/contraception/pill.shtml
Even the pills website isn’t as sure as you are
thepill.com/birth-control/birth-control-myths.html
"When a woman is ready to have a baby, she should consult her healthcare professional before she stops taking birth control pills. There is usually no problem regaining fertility. "

I don’t have a problem with a woman having to be on a pill or using medicine but I do have a problem with a woman having sex when she is doing something that may kill or disfigure her innocent child because she did not seek alternative treatment or she could not abstain.

As for your last remark that I will not quote. I do think, I have thought on this alot and have researched it in depth morally and medically. The pill can seem like an ‘easy’ fix for a problem as it is not noticed while one is on it but the moral aspect (respect for life) calls for us to take up our crosses and seek better ways. I am going to reproduce the side effects list from the pill insert on the next post and some short Church documents that will help support my position.

I am not saying a woman cannot take the pill but that she must not be sexually active as it does not meet the demands of double effect as proscribed by the Church. I will let the Doctors debate the irresponsibility of using the pill as a theraputic medical treatment.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

Listen Matt,
i ain’t got no time to waste reading your opinion reflected series of messages. You have your opinion - keep it to yourself - but don’t force it to other people. I have spoken to many priests about this issue (i trust them more than you) and my spouse and i we’ve got our own opinion about it. We do as our consciences let us. Being a doctor myself - i know the side effects you’ve quoted - are you trying to freak me mentioning them?..

Take care of yourself,

Ice

 

[tytis]

Dear Matt,
I’ve read all of your messages in this topic. I think you’re a dogmatic person. Not all of the things are given to us clearly in The Scripture, it means that issues like this can be solved but knowing what is right and, of course, according to the situation. All priests are human and they think differently on this issue. We have to choose what to do.
I bet that you don’t understand the unhappy women suffering from various diseases and syndroms which make them use those pills. For them they are a medicine firstly - it’s not that dirty thing contraception for sex sake - it’s a medicine. The point is not "love without consequences’ as they said in one commercial of contraceptives on TV - the point is treatment.

Some advice for you if you want other people to respect your opinion - read a book by Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.
If you’re so just - tell me how many people have you converted in your life if you try to look so cool?

Take care,
tytis

 

[tytis]

Dear Matt,
I’ve read all of your messages in this topic. I think you’re a dogmatic person:tsktsk:. Not all of the things are given to us clearly in The Scripture, it means that issues like this can be solved but knowing what is right and, of course, according to the situation. All priests are human and they think differently on this issue. We have to choose what to do.
I bet that you don’t understand the unhappy women suffering from various diseases and syndroms which make them use those pills. For them they are a medicine firstly - it’s not that dirty thing contraception for sex sake - it’s a medicine. The point is not "love without consequences’ as they said in one commercial of contraceptives on TV - the point is treatment.

Some advice for you if you want other people to respect your opinion - read a book by Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.
If you’re so just - tell me how many people have you converted in your life if you try to look so cool?

Take care,
tytis

 

[tytis]

Dear Matt,
I’ve read all of your messages in this topic. I think you’re a dogmatic person:tsktsk:. Not all of the things are given to us clearly in The Scripture, it means that issues like this can be solved but knowing what is right and, of course, according to the situation. All priests are humans and they think differently on this issue. We have to choose what to do.
I bet that you don’t understand the unhappy women suffering from various diseases and syndroms which make them use those pills. For them they are a medicine firstly - it’s not that dirty thing contraception for sex sake - it’s a medicine. The point is not “love without consequences” as they said in one commercial of contraceptives on TV - the point is treatment.

Some advice for you if you want other people to respect your opinion - read a book by Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.
If you’re so just - tell me how many people have you converted in your life if you try to look so cool?

Take care,
tytis

 

[tytis]

Dear Matt,
I’ve read all of your messages in this topic. I think you’re a dogmatic person:tsktsk:. Not all of the things are given to us clearly in The Scripture, it means that issues like this can be solved but knowing what is right and, of course, according to the situation. All priests are humans and they think differently on this issue. We have to choose what to do.
I bet that you don’t understand the unhappy women suffering from various diseases and syndroms which make them use those pills. For them they are a medicine firstly - it’s not that dirty thing contraception for sex sake - it’s a medicine. The point is not “love without consequences” as they said in one commercial of contraceptives on TV - the point is treatment.

Some advice for you if you want other people to respect your opinion - read a book by Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.
If you’re so just - tell me how many people have you converted in your life if you try to look so cool?

Take care,
tytis

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice:

Listen Matt,
i ain’t got no time to waste reading your opinion reflected series of messages. You have your opinion - keep it to yourself - but don’t force it to other people. I have spoken to many priests about this issue (i trust them more than you) and my spouse and i we’ve got our own opinion about it. We do as our consciences let us. Being a doctor myself - i know the side effects you’ve quoted - are you trying to freak me mentioning them?..

This is not an opinion but a clear bright line test performed on the principle of double effect and the requirements it entails. The only way a medicine could be utilized for treatment of a medical condition if it has a contraceptive effect is if it meets all of these conditions.
The principle of double effect requires that you not intend the negative effect, the good effect not be brought about by evil means, that the good is greater than the foreseeable evil, and that no other means of achieving the good is available.

As a sexually active woman on the pill may kill her child than the good she is using the medicine for would literally have to be life-saving to even begin considering licit usage.

Many good doctors are available to find alternate means and an alternate mean is always (abstinence, removal of an incorrectly operating organ, pseudo-menopausul drug Lupron is an example and is indicated for endometrosis (the pill is not according to their web)) available that will not kill a child it would not be allowed to be sexually active and be on an abortifacient causing pill. No study has been done that I have ever seen showing the pill can be taken a certain way and not allow break-through ovulation. It is hypothesized but would require two groups of women taking the pill and some form of ultrasound or other examination to verify that ovulation had occured or could not be detected.

This fails the pill from being licitly used according to the principle of double effect.
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=56 For more on double effect.

As for priests I too have consulted many and many doctors. One priest in particular has a degree in moral theology and is currently working in the Vatican and he agrees with my position completely after reviewing the facts.

I am glad you have your own opinion…as to that and the issue of conscience…remember it must be formed in line with the teaching of the Church that is the representative of Christ on earth with his authority.

I would suggest reading Thomas A Kempis Imitation of Christ Book 2 Chapter 12 on The Royal Road of the Cross and the need to take up your cross and put selfish desires behind.
leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imb2.html#RTFToC91

I was mentioning the side effects and quotes from thepill.com to show that it does mention temporary infertility specifically and that they say that usually no problems occur but the manufacturer is not as sure as you are.

I offer my rosary for you tonight so that your heart may not be hardened.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

 

[CatholicMatthew]

tytis:

I’ve read all of your messages in this topic. I think you’re a dogmatic person:tsktsk:.

You act as if following what the Church teaches is a bad thing. I follow what the Church teaches out of love for Christ and not for their own sake. I take up my cross on the way to perfection in Christ and I am a sinner that has a long ways to go.

tytis:
Not all of the things are given to us clearly in The Scripture, it means that issues like this can be solved but knowing what is right and, of course, according to the situation. All priests are humans and they think differently on this issue. We have to choose what to do.

That is why we have the author of scripture to guide us, the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Scripture was never written to found the Church but the Church wrote them to reinforce what was taught and preached.

tytis:

I bet that you don’t understand the unhappy women suffering from various diseases and syndroms which make them use those pills. For them they are a medicine firstly - it’s not that dirty thing contraception for sex sake - it’s a medicine.

I weep when I hear about women that are suffering from diseases and they feel hopeless or stuggle with how to deal with it. Human suffering (male or female) is never pretty. I understand that it is a medicine, but it is a medicine that kills and it is a medicine that has alternatives. Read the pill insert www.thepill.com it states that the pill is indicated only for preventing pregnancy and not for these other issues…find a NFP only doc www.popepaulvi.com has really great information on alternatives in the form of a large well researched text called The Practice of NaproTechnology.

tytis:
The point is not “love without consequences” as they said in one commercial of contraceptives on TV - the point is treatment.

Sexual active while on the pill can cause significant and deadly consequences. If the point is treatment have them contact Dr. Hilgers and find an undeadly alternative.

tytis:

Some advice for you if you want other people to respect your opinion - read a book by Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.

I am not trying to convey a mere opinion but a very significant distinction that people will not understand. Again, I am not trying to be popular but trying to preach the Truth of Christ as it has been transmitted through His earthly representative, The Catholic Church.

tytis:

If you’re so just - tell me how many people have you converted in your life if you try to look so cool?

1.) I have never converted anyone…that is the Work of the Holy Spirit.
2.) I have walked with many people in deeper conversions of faith as well as into the Catholic Church.
3.) I don’t do this to look cool but to avoid burning in a lake of fire for an eternity. Popularity is for shallow people, I desire God and at times I am persecuted for it.

I will say two rosaries tonight. The second is yours.

Life is sacred.
Under the Mercy,

Matthew Sauer

 

[shypony]

Matthew,

After reading carefully through what has been a compelling (and sometimes disturbing) discussion, I would like to thank you for sticking not only to your guns, but to the truth. The Catholic Church’s stance on contraceptive use, however emotionally difficult it may be for some of us, is in no way unclear.

For those who are truly taking contraceptives for a non-contraceptive reason, your choice is a matter of conscience. With solemn prayer and reflection, what may now seem grey will reveal it itself to be either black (opposed to the natural law) or white (in line with the natural law). My prayers are with everyone involved in the contraceptive issue.

Again, Matthew. Thank you for your patience and resilience.

St. Patrick, pray for us. :irish2:

Yours in Christ,
shypony

 

[felra]

CatholicMatthew:

I am not trying to convey a mere opinion but a very significant distinction that people will not understand. Again, I am not trying to be popular but trying to preach the Truth of Christ as it has been transmitted through His earthly representative, The Catholic Church.

1.) I have never converted anyone…that is the Work of the Holy Spirit.
2.) I have walked with many people in deeper conversions of faith as well as into the Catholic Church.
3.) I don’t do this to look cool but to avoid burning in a lake of fire for an eternity. Popularity is for shallow people, I desire God and at times I am persecuted for it.

I will say two rosaries tonight. The second is yours.

Life is sacred.
Under the Mercy,

Matthew Sauer

Well stated and very charitable.

 

[demolitionman65]

Sorry to some folks, but Matthew is right on.

Given: The woman is on the BCP to address a serious, potentially incapacitating physiological issue that cannot be otherwise corrected. The woman is married, and the marriage is sacramental (i.e consummated).

Solution: Given the abortifacient features of the BCP, the couple is compelled to practice NFP with the intention of preventing conception. A consequent conception and subsequent miscarriage caused by ingestion of the BCP is a moral evil, it cannot be interpreted as an unintentional miscarriage when the woman knows that the BCP can cause an abortion. Knowledge contributes to intent here, and double effect applies. (I strongly disagree with Fr. Serpa’s interpretation of this situation, as you might figure).

In this instance, using this solution, the use of the BCP would be acceptable; so long as NFP is concurrently strictly adhered to with the intention of preventing pregnancy. In this case, there is no way that a consequent conception/induced abortion be considered deliberate.

 

[CatholicMatthew]

demolitionman65:

In this instance, using this solution, the use of the BCP would be acceptable; so long as NFP is concurrently strictly adhered to with the intention of preventing pregnancy. In this case, there is no way that a consequent conception/induced abortion be considered deliberate.

Unfortunately the influence of the pill makes the use of NFP impossible. In other words you cannot detect relative fertility and infertility while on hormonal birth control pills.

Matt

 

[CatholicMatthew]

I also think this quotation is applicable.

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74)

 

[demolitionman65]

Unfortunately the influence of the pill makes the use of NFP impossible. In other words you cannot detect relative fertility and infertility while on hormonal birth control pills.

Accepting this claim at face value, you are correct. My experience with the Pill (from many, evil years ago) indicates that this may not be true.

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74)

Granted. However, my scenario (if it were to work) would render the use of the pill neutral.

 

[CatholicMatthew]

demolitionman65:

Accepting this claim at face value, you are correct. My experience with the Pill (from many, evil years ago) indicates that this may not be true.

The big problem is that the expense of a medical study to determine ovulation characterisitics on the pill probably won’t be undertaken by the pill industry (advertising failure is usually never a good thing) and with NFP crowd it would be hard to justify a study for what is seen as an area with such a small need. As a teacher when I see a chart that has certain characteristics it is obvious the person is on the pill. Now while common places of breakthrough ovulation may occur many other things can influence breakthrough ovulation such as one skip of a pill or even a delay or the addition of a cold or alcohol or medication. With this in mind it may not always be posssible to proactively detect when you can partake of relations and then do soemthing that may cause ovulation and allow conception without an opportunity for abstinence.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

demolitionman65:

Granted. However, my scenario (if it were to work) would render the use of the pill neutral.

 

[cathyt]

It’s great to see this being discussed. I haven’t read all the posts, but I just want to emphasize that while the Church DOES teach that contraception is immoral, it is for the sake of the positive, not the negative. The point is not that the Church is AGAINST birth control, but that the Church SUUPORTS recognition of the beauty of human life, the dignity of human marital relations and all that comes from that, and that the Church recognizes that people should live as they were created to live–indisputably, a part of human nature is the ability to pro-create through the marital act. The Church CELEBRATES this and all that comes from it!!! (and not JUST potential little ones, but also a unique bond, a connection that is other-wordly, and an experience of TOTAL self-giving for a married couple!)

How cool is this Church?!!!

 

[felra]

CatholicMatthew:

I also think this quotation is applicable.

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74)

I believe these excerts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church likewise give pause for further consideration:

ARTICLE 4
THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS

I. THE SOURCES OF MORALITY

1750 The morality of human acts depends on:

• the object chosen;
• the end in view or the intention;
• the circumstances of the action.

The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the “sources,” or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts.

IN BRIEF

---

1757 The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the three “sources” of the morality of human acts.

1758 The object chosen morally specifies the act of willing accordingly as reason recognizes and judges it good or evil.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

1760 A morally good act requires the goodness of its object, of its end, and of its circumstances together.

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.