Contraception OK?

[itsjustdave1988]

There’s a difference between 1) cooperation in the illicit use of an abortificant drug (prohibited), and 2) the licit use of the pill.

Fr. Serpa, in my understanding of his responses, is not stating that one is permitted to cooperate in the ***ILLICIT ***use of an abortificant drug. What I believe he is stating is that the pill can be used licitly, if it is not intended as a contraceptive/aborticant.

One must distinguish between unintended miscarriages (not morally evil) and intended abortions (morally evil).

This statement does not contradict what Fr. Serpa asserts …

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74)

… as the situation that Fr. Serpa describes is not cooperation in formal evil because the licit use of the pill is not morally evil.

Fr. Serpa is simply reiterating what Humanae Vitae affirms. The use of the moral principle of double-effect is applicable in such cases. Taking the Pill is not an intrinsic evil. In other words, it may indeed be immoral, depending upon the circumstances, most importantly the willful intent of taking the pill. Yet, in other circumstances, use of the pill is not immoral, even if the unintended effect may be a miscarriage.

See post #26 for more regarding the conditions for applying the principle of double effect forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=221076&postcount=26

 

[CatholicMatthew]

I guess my problem with the pill and my concern about the potential of formal cooperation is that other medicines or procedures that are not abortifacent exist and produce comprable results to the pill in terms of relief of symptoms.

My question would be if the pill is theraputic when it does not actually address the malady.

Under the mercy,

Matthew

 

[Convert97]

The answers you are looking for are in the Catechism. Unfortunately, Catholic moral teaching doesn’t always give us yes or no answers. You will find no laundry list in an Church document to give you a quick and easy answer. You need to go to PP. 1749 and following for an explanation of the Morality of Human Acts. It states the morality of human acts depends on 1, the object chosen; 2, the end in view or the intention; and the circumstances of the action. Know first of all that "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil (pp. 2370). This statement quotes Humanae Vitae, PP. 14, so it is binding on the faithful. This means using the pill to halt conceptions is always evil. So the object chosen is evil. But what’s the intention. Is the person trying to frustrate the transmission of life or is the person doing something to prolong her own life, which is a good thing. Regulating your cycle and treating cancer are different things entirely. And what are the circumstances? The doctor is the expert. But remember, doctors hand out the pill like candy on Halloween. So, has the woman asked the doctor for alternatives to the pill? Has she got a second opinion. If the pill is the only alternative and her health is at risk, then taking it should be OK. If she is trying to regulate her cycle, what is the purpose for doing so. The pill will not fix her cycle. If there is not a grave reason for regulating her cycle, then taking the pill will NOT be OK. Also, the pill can abort a child, so the advice that any woman on the pill should refrain from relations except for during her regular infertile periods is good advice. To learn these, a woman should learn Natural Family Planning.

All actions need to be judged separately and by the three guides given. Any decision of this sort must be undertaken with a great deal of prayer.

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Convert97:

Also, the pill can abort a child, so the advice that any woman on the pill should refrain from relations except for during her regular infertile periods is good advice. To learn these, a woman should learn Natural Family Planning.

A woman on the pill cannot use NFP. The symptoms are obscured and their is not regular infertile period on the pill. A bleeding episode can preced or coincide with ovulation and you have mucus all the time so it is impossible to interp. If you are using temps also they are just flat and high except for the beginning. Again, they are impossible to interp.

Matt

 

[Dismas2004]

Convert97:

The answers you are looking for are in the Catechism. Unfortunately, Catholic moral teaching doesn’t always give us yes or no answers. You will find no laundry list in an Church document to give you a quick and easy answer. You need to go to PP. 1749 and following for an explanation of the Morality of Human Acts. It states the morality of human acts depends on 1, the object chosen; 2, the end in view or the intention; and the circumstances of the action. Know first of all that "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible, is intrinsically evil (pp. 2370). This statement quotes Humanae Vitae, PP. 14, so it is binding on the faithful. This means using the pill to halt conceptions is always evil. So the object chosen is evil. But what’s the intention. Is the person trying to frustrate the transmission of life or is the person doing something to prolong her own life, which is a good thing. Regulating your cycle and treating cancer are different things entirely. And what are the circumstances? The doctor is the expert. But remember, doctors hand out the pill like candy on Halloween. So, has the woman asked the doctor for alternatives to the pill? Has she got a second opinion. If the pill is the only alternative and her health is at risk, then taking it should be OK. If she is trying to regulate her cycle, what is the purpose for doing so. The pill will not fix her cycle. If there is not a grave reason for regulating her cycle, then taking the pill will NOT be OK. Also, the pill can abort a child, so the advice that any woman on the pill should refrain from relations except for during her regular infertile periods is good advice. To learn these, a woman should learn Natural Family Planning.

All actions need to be judged separately and by the three guides given. Any decision of this sort must be undertaken with a great deal of prayer.

Well said, I agree - Only one problem is that NFP and the pill don’t work at the same time, it’s impossible. But your point and the answer to the questions has just been summed up very nicely, in a way I have been unable to put yet. Thank you for your help.

 

[Ice]

To CatholicMatthew


I have read everything what you wrote. I am under the impression that you are very good catholic but sorry you really don’t understand the medicine and diseases. The man will never realize that terrible pain that women are suffering during their irregular period and that dire PMS (premenstrual syndrome) causing headache, stomach-ache, nausea, disability to do everyday works due to hormonal disbalance. I really know that there is not any “other medicines or procedures that produce comparable results to the pill in terms of relief of symptoms.”

In the Love of Christ,

Ice

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice:

I have read everything what you wrote. I am under the impression that you are very good catholic but sorry you really don’t understand the medicine and diseases. The man will never realize that terrible pain that women are suffering during their irregular period and that dire PMS (premenstrual syndrome) causing headache, stomach-ache, nausea, disability to do everyday works due to hormonal disbalance. I really know that there is not any “other medicines or procedures that produce comparable results to the pill in terms of relief of symptoms.”

Ice,

Will I ever know the pain of PMS…not without some sort of miraculous intervention. Do I know pain…yes. Many people (MD’s and Nurses) have told me the pill is not necessary. I am glad you have tried everything else including the Paul VI institute, pseudo-menopausul drugs and hysterectomy and found that the pill does the best job…I am imagining that you haven’t tried those.

Even if their is a reason to use the pill for a valid medical treatment abstinence would still be required due to the possibility of death or disfigurement of an innocent. These are things admitted to by the BCp industry as a reality and as such it would be irresponsible to have relations while on the pill.

Under the Mercy

Matthew

 

[Ice]

CatholicMatthew:

Ice,

Will I ever know the pain of PMS…not without some sort of miraculous intervention. Do I know pain…yes. Many people (MD’s and Nurses) have told me the pill is not necessary. I am glad you have tried everything else including the Paul VI institute, pseudo-menopausul drugs and hysterectomy and found that the pill does the best job…I am imagining that you haven’t tried those.

Even if their is a reason to use the pill for a valid medical treatment abstinence would still be required due to the possibility of death or disfigurement of an innocent. These are things admitted to by the BCp industry as a reality and as such it would be irresponsible to have relations while on the pill.

Under the Mercy

Matthew

Could you tell me how hysterectomy may solve the problems???:bigyikes:

In the Love of Christ,
Ice

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice:

Could you tell me how hysterectomy may solve the problems???:bigyikes:

In the Love of Christ,
Ice

Well, if endemetriosis or PCOS is your problem…or painful periods…ie the organ is not functioning correctly amputation could be considered…the problem would not be present anymore. It is an extreme solution but I would say if you could not control yourself enough to not have sex while on the pill and risk killing or maming an innocent life than it may be something to consider.

Matt

 

[Ice]

CatholicMatthew:

Well, if endemetriosis or PCOS is your problem…or painful periods…ie the organ is not functioning correctly amputation could be considered…the problem would not be present anymore. It is an extreme solution but I would say if you could not control yourself enough to not have sex while on the pill and risk killing or maming an innocent life than it may be something to consider.

Matt

The amputation is the same as the sterilization. If it is done when something (the medicine-the pill) may be used it is a mortal sin. If the pill is taken properly (at the same time, every day, without forgetfulness) it will not cause abortion (and of course praying is essential).
Every day my husband and me we are praying for our children-to-be and for not killing them.

God Bless

Ice

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice:

The amputation is the same as the sterilization. If it is done when something (the medicine-the pill) may be used it is a mortal sin.

CCC #2297 “Except when performed for strictly theraputic medical reasons directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilization performed on an innocent person are against the moral law. (Cf DS 3722)”

The presence of the pill, to be taken is not the only factor to be considered…I have to address the larger negative effect that it has with the second half of your quote:
Ice}:

If the pill is taken properly (at the same time, every day, without forgetfulness) it will not cause abortion (and of course praying is essential).

A few problems here:
One, if you look at the insert you will note that it lists abortus concptus as one of the mechanisms.
Two, even if what you say is correct (it is just a hypothesis ie I have heard this but not found data on it) and a couple has relations today and the wife always takes the pill at the same time but she doesn’t tommorow…then what? The risk has presented itself through the carelessness.
Third, the risk of a pregnancy occuring when it is known (by the pill manufacturers, the Supreme Court and others) that the BCP can cause Birth Defects to a pregnancy that can happen while on the pill.
An interesting sidenote is that one of the side effects of the BCP is that it can cause permanent sterility, not just temporary sterility.

Ice:

Every day my husband and me we are praying for our children-to-be and for not killing them.

Regardless of intention, the reality must be measured as that is what you are accountable for.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

 

[Ice]

CatholicMatthew:
CCC #2297 “Except when performed for strictly theraputic medical reasons directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilization performed on an innocent person are against the moral law. (Cf DS 3722)”

The presence of the pill, to be taken is not the only factor to be considered…I have to address the larger negative effect that it has with the second half of your quote:

A few problems here:
One, if you look at the insert you will note that it lists abortus concptus as one of the mechanisms.
Two, even if what you say is correct (it is just a hypothesis ie I have heard this but not found data on it) and a couple has relations today and the wife always takes the pill at the same time but she doesn’t tommorow…then what? The risk has presented itself through the carelessness.
Third, the risk of a pregnancy occuring when it is known (by the pill manufacturers, the Supreme Court and others) that the BCP can cause Birth Defects to a pregnancy that can happen while on the pill.

Regardless of intention, the reality must be measured as that is what you are accountable for.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

Dear Matthew,
To me your position is clear, but i think that you’re not getting to the point. You show lack of medical knowledge and understanding. I’m saying this for i’m a doctor myself (my husband also). I think you really need to study Physiology of woman’s reproductive system (Pathologic Physiology as well) to be a better teacher of Prolife. Many people have different problems with help - and you can’t ignore them neither force your opinion to them.
What you say is partly true but i think that you’re simply ignorant of the problem - try to see the problem if you were in many women’s shoes, who want to live normal happy life (incl. sexual) and have children despite diseases that makes them use the pill. In this case - the pill is firstly a medicine. Are you getting the idea? I bet that if you’re a woman you’d be more careful with the words you write here in the forum.

An interesting sidenote is that one of the side effects of the BCP is that it can cause permanent sterility, not just temporary sterility.

It’s a myth - can’t agree with this nonsense.

Besides, if you didn’t know - if you take away the ovaries from a woman - she will have to be on pills for all of her life, 'cause ovaries produce hormones! You think like an engineer - if there’s a problem - it has to be taken away… but it’s not always so easy in medicine.
Firstly think and then write. Don’t make me think you’re so narrow minded.

God bless you.

Ice

 

[Ice]

CatholicMatthew:
CCC #2297 “Except when performed for strictly theraputic medical reasons directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilization performed on an innocent person are against the moral law. (Cf DS 3722)”

The presence of the pill, to be taken is not the only factor to be considered…I have to address the larger negative effect that it has with the second half of your quote:

A few problems here:

One, if you look at the insert you will note that it lists abortus concptus as one of the mechanisms.

Two, even if what you say is correct (it is just a hypothesis ie I have heard this but not found data on it) and a couple has relations today and the wife always takes the pill at the same time but she doesn’t tommorow…then what? The risk has presented itself through the carelessness.

Third, the risk of a pregnancy occuring when it is known (by the pill manufacturers, the Supreme Court and others) that the BCP can cause Birth Defects to a pregnancy that can happen while on the pill.

Regardless of intention, the reality must be measured as that is what you are accountable for.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

Dear Matthew,

To me your position is clear, but i think that you’re not getting to the point. You show lack of medical knowledge and understanding. I’m saying this for i’m a doctor myself (my husband also). I think you really need to study Physiology of woman’s reproductive system (Pathologic Physiology as well) to be a better teacher of Prolife. Many people have different problems with health - and you can’t ignore them neither force your opinion to them.

What you say is partly true but i think that you’re simply ignorant of the problem - try to see the problem if you were in many women’s shoes, who want to live normal happy family life (incl. sexual) and have children despite diseases that makes them use the pill. In this case - the pill is firstly a medicine. Are you getting the idea? I bet that if you’re a woman you’d be more careful with the words you write here in the forum.

CatholicMatthew:
An interesting sidenote is that one of the side effects of the BCP is that it can cause permanent sterility, not just temporary sterility.

It’s a myth - can’t agree with this nonsense. There’s no scientific evidence for this J

Besides, if you didn’t know - if you take away the ovaries from a woman - she will have to be on pills for all of her life, 'cause ovaries produce hormones! You think like an engineer - if there’s a problem - it has to be taken away… but it’s not always so easy in medicine.

Firstly think and then write. Don’t make me think you’re so narrow minded.

God bless you.

Ice

 

[pgoings]

CatholicMatthew:

Even if their is a reason to use the pill for a valid medical treatment abstinence would still be required due to the possibility of death or disfigurement of an innocent.

A related question: If a woman is known to have a very high risk of miscarriage, must she and her husband permanently abstain in order to avoid the “possibility of death or disfigurement of an innocent?”

If not, then why does the otherwise licit use of hormonal medications (one of which is the oral contraceptive) make it obligatory to abstain because of an increased risk (not guaranteed certainty!) of miscarriage?

–Paul Goings

N.B. I am neither a medical doctor, nor a moral theologian. I do not intend to provoke, but to understand. I agree that, generally, “hard cases make bad laws,” but I am genuinely confused about the authentic teaching of the Church on some of these issues.

 

[CatholicMatthew]

pgoings:

A related question: If a woman is known to have a very high risk of miscarriage, must she and her husband permanently abstain in order to avoid the “possibility of death or disfigurement of an innocent?”

The answer would be know as long as they were not doing anything intentional to cause the death and/or disfigurement.

pgoings:

If not, then why does the otherwise licit use of hormonal medications (one of which is the oral contraceptive) make it obligatory to abstain because of an increased risk (not guaranteed certainty!) of miscarriage?

As I said above the difference is a direct action taken on the part of the user of the pill

Matt

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice,

I am going to eat now and then I have to pull out my research file and I will respond in full.

I am not narrowminded but you have to remember rules do exist. I do not believe a woman should get a hysterectomy for ‘painful periods’ unless an underlying cause that is dangerous to her is present.

More to come for you

Matthew

 

[CatholicMatthew]

Ice:

To me your position is clear, but i think that you’re not getting to the point. You show lack of medical knowledge and understanding. I’m saying this for i’m a doctor myself (my husband also). I think you really need to study Physiology of woman’s reproductive system (Pathologic Physiology as well) to be a better teacher of Prolife. Many people have different problems with health - and you can’t ignore them neither force your opinion to them.

I am not forcing my opinion on them I am merely stating a series of facts and applying them to the principle of double effect which would provide the only means that a contraceptive could be used.

It fails in that one of the qualifications for its use is that no moral means must be available to treat the problem…check out www.popepaulvi.com and read about NaproTech and maybe even order the book or contact Dr. Hilgers. You can also read the book Fertility Cycles and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon www.ccli.org I have a feeling you would be enlightened but alternatives that are available.
It fails another qualification in that the good must be greater than the possible evil side effect. Discomfort vs. death or disfigurement of a child ??? Can you tell me that a use of the pill can prevent something greater than death of an innocent?

Ice:

What you say is partly true but i think that you’re simply ignorant of the problem - try to see the problem if you were in many women’s shoes, who want to live normal happy family life (incl. sexual) and have children despite diseases that makes them use the pill. In this case - the pill is firstly a medicine. Are you getting the idea? I bet that if you’re a woman you’d be more careful with the words you write here in the forum.

Just because a woman wants something (a normal life) while she is dealing with a medical condition does not mean she can do anything (morally speaking) to achieve it. A person taking a narcotic for a medical reduction of pain from an accident cannot simply go driving without endangering a life. That would be irresponsible and immoral.

There are many things in life that I want but I do not have a right to them. Morality isn’t based upon what people want but upon God’s dictates. A question…what diseases does the Pill cure? The Ortho Tri-Cyclen shows the only indication for it (manufacturers use) is for prevention of pregnancy.

Ice:
It’s a myth - can’t agree with this nonsense. There’s no scientific evidence for this J

Actually not
ccli.org/contraception/pill.shtml
Even the pills website isn’t as sure as you are
thepill.com/birth-control/birth-control-myths.html
"When a woman is ready to have a baby, she should consult her healthcare professional before she stops taking birth control pills. There is usually no problem regaining fertility. "

Besides, if you didn’t know - if you take away the ovaries from a woman - she will have to be on pills for all of her life, 'cause ovaries produce hormones! You think like an engineer - if there’s a problem - it has to be taken away… but it’s not always so easy in medicine.

I don’t have a problem with a woman having to be on a pill or using medicine but I do have a problem with a woman having sex when she is doing something that may kill or disfigure her innocent child because she did not seek alternative treatment or she could not abstain.

As for your last remark that I will not quote. I do think, I have thought on this alot and have researched it in depth morally and medically. The pill can seem like an ‘easy’ fix for a problem as it is not noticed while one is on it but the moral aspect (respect for life) calls for us to take up our crosses and seek better ways. I am going to reproduce the side effects list from the pill insert on the next post and some short Church documents that will help support my position.

I am not saying a woman cannot take the pill but that she must not be sexually active as it does not meet the demands of double effect as proscribed by the Church. I will let the Doctors debate the irresponsibility of using the pill as a theraputic medical treatment.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew

 

[CatholicMatthew]

from the Ortho try-cyclen insert:

An increased risk of the following serious adverse reactions has been associated with the use of oral contraceptives
(see WARNINGS section).
• Thrombophlebitis and venous thrombosis with or without embolism
• Arterial thromboembolism
• Pulmonary embolism
• Myocardial infarction
• Cerebral hemorrhage
• Cerebral thrombosis
• Hypertension
• Gallbladder disease
• Hepatic adenomas or benign liver tumors
There is evidence of an association between the following conditions and the use of oral contraceptives:
• Mesenteric thrombosis
• Retinal thrombosis
The following adverse reactions have been reported in patients receiving oral contraceptives and are believed to be drug-related:
• Nausea
• Vomiting
• Gastrointestinal symptoms (such as abdominal cramps and bloating)
• Breakthrough bleeding
• Spotting
• Change in menstrual flow
• Amenorrhea
• Temporary infertility after discontinuation of treatment
• Edema
• Melasma which may persist
• Breast changes: tenderness, enlargement, secretion
• Change in weight (increase or decrease)
• Change in cervical erosion and secretion
• Diminution in lactation when given immediately postpartum
• Cholestatic jaundice
• Migraine
• Rash (allergic)
• Mental depression
• Reduced tolerance to carbohydrates
• Vaginal candidiasis
• Change in corneal curvature (steepening)• Intolerance to contact lenses

 

[CatholicMatthew]

**

The following adverse reactions have been reported in users of oral contraceptives and the association has

been neither confirmed nor refuted:

• Pre-menstrual syndrome

• Cataracts

• Changes in appetite

• Cystitis-like syndrome

• Headache

• Nervousness

• Dizziness

• Hirsutism

• Loss of scalp hair

• Erythema multiforme

• Erythema nodosum

• Hemorrhagic eruption

• Vaginitis

• Porphyria

• Impaired renal function

• Hemolytic uremic syndrome

• Acne

• Changes in libido

• Colitis

• Budd-Chiari Syndrome

**

 

[CatholicMatthew]

1. Furthermore, it is necessary to carefully evaluate the question of cooperation in evil when recourse is made to means which can have an abortifacient effect.48

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74).