Contraception...Why is it considered sinful?

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Freddy said:
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goout:
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Freddy:
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goout:
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Freddy:
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AlmaRedemptorisMater:
A couple in their 70s who plan to use contraception to avoid even a miraculous conception is disordered in their intentions concerning marriage.
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I think you’re missing the point. A seventy year old couple wouldn’t need contraception. They’d be having sex purely for the enjoyment. Conception wouldn’t come into it. So how come they can enjoy sex just for the pleasure it gives them but a twenty year old couple cannot?
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Twenty year old people can’t enjoy sex? Whaaaaa?
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I mean with contraception. So that they can have sex without any chance of having children. As do the eighty year olds. Just for the enjoyment of it with no thought of conception.
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I’m not sure what your point is? Of course 80 year olds are not going to conceive. They can still enjoy sex like 20 year olds, if they are lucky.
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Agreed. But it’s nonsensical to ask them to be ‘open to conception’. They physically can’t. It’s like asking them if they’re ‘open to levitation’.
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As far as the possibility of conception it’s not a relevant term for 80 year olds, but relevant as it describes the form of the act…the way the couple does it. That matters.
Again, it’s not about actual results.
 
goout said:
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Freddy:
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goout:
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Freddy:
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goout:
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Freddy:
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AlmaRedemptorisMater:
A couple in their 70s who plan to use contraception to avoid even a miraculous conception is disordered in their intentions concerning marriage.
Click to expand...
I think you’re missing the point. A seventy year old couple wouldn’t need contraception. They’d be having sex purely for the enjoyment. Conception wouldn’t come into it. So how come they can enjoy sex just for the pleasure it gives them but a twenty year old couple cannot?
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Twenty year old people can’t enjoy sex? Whaaaaa?
Click to expand...
I mean with contraception. So that they can have sex without any chance of having children. As do the eighty year olds. Just for the enjoyment of it with no thought of conception.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what your point is? Of course 80 year olds are not going to conceive. They can still enjoy sex like 20 year olds, if they are lucky.
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Agreed. But it’s nonsensical to ask them to be ‘open to conception’. They physically can’t. It’s like asking them if they’re ‘open to levitation’.
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As far as the possibility of conception it’s not a relevant term for 80 year olds, but relevant as it describes the form of the act…the way the couple does it. That matters.
Again, it’s not about actual results.
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But the point is moot when it comes to people past a certain age. It’s nonsensical to tell the eighty year olds that they must be open to conception. Their answer is likely to be Whaa…?
 
That is why the Church does not use that term. Each act must be ordered to procreation.
 
Freddy said:
I mean with contraception. So that they can have sex without any chance of having children. As do the eighty year olds. Just for the enjoyment of it with no thought of conception.
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The two situations are not equal.
Even with contraception, of course, there is a chance, that’s why there are children who come from un ideal family situation and why some are aborted.
Freddy said:
But the point is moot when it comes to people past a certain age. It’s nonsensical to tell the eighty year olds that they must be open to conception. Their answer is likely to be Whaa…?
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The Church does not say that.

She just ask married people to have relations in the way that children are conceived, no others things. The vocabulary is “oriented toward procreation”.

The same act, and nothing to deliberately avoid conception.
 
PennyinCanada said:
You know what I learned in school? I asked myself, am I teachable? Am I willing to listen, to take in information? Can I meet the challenge? Can I adapt to changing situations? Am I malleable? God can do amazing things when he has a person like this. The sower of the seed in scripture has seed fall on hard ground and nothing comes of it. Everything the seed needs to have to grow is there! That’s God’s grace and God’s word. Which is it that you want to be? I am afraid you’ve spent a lot of time on this subject saying no. Don’t stay there.
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I agree with your reasoning to have the malleability to be open to God’s grace. To be ready to be surprised and changed. It is not easy.

NOt if you apply this reasoning on school and teaching. We should keep our free thinking apart from teachers and the possibility to disagree with them. It is even more vital in a very secular society where we will be teach things in contradiction with the natural order.
 
Obviously 70 year old people have no need of contraception. . . .

I gave a hypothetical scenario of an elderly couple expressly using contraception to avoid a miraculous conception. Age isn’t the important factor, but the intention. . . .
 
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whatistrue said:
You think the desire goes away? Nope. What you both do is exercise self control if you don’t want a child at that time.
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I am not talking about desire. I am talking about a husband telling his wife “I don’t want you right now”. I don’t see how that is a good thing at all for any marriage.
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
When there are circumstances that make having children going forward difficult to consider, or even physically impossible, it might be good to lament the fact that one’s childbearing days are over, and wish it were possible to have more children.
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I was exhausted from raising one child. My husband did more than his share, but mothering just didn’t come naturally to me. I love my child dearly and she will tell you I was and am a terrific mother, but I killed myself getting to that point. It was a daily struggle for me like no other and I was worn out from it. When I was 37 years old I had to have a hysterectomy for medical reasons. I was so relieved and my life got so much better not having to worry about being pregnant, again. That is the reality. Most women who have had children aren’t lamenting anything when it comes to the season of their life that they don’t have to consider pregnancy any more. They are often exhausted from raising the ones they had. Of course, there are always exceptions to this. But it is a natural thing to feel that way and I don’t think we should be telling people they should lament something they are actually quite happy about, being past that stage in life.
 
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AlmaRedemptorisMater said:
Obviously 70 year old people have no need of contraception. . . .

I gave a hypothetical scenario of an elderly couple expressly using contraception to avoid a miraculous conception. Age isn’t the important factor, but the intention. . . .
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Exactly. But an eighty year old couple haven’t got the intention or the desire to have children. It’s nonsensical to tell them that they have to be ‘open to conception (or procreation)’. It’s not conceivable for the woman to say to the man: ‘OK, you want to have sex? But I won’t do it unless you accept that I could get pregnant’. But that’s the requirement.
 
Hello again @rosejmj,

After considering more of your rebuttals, rather than focusing on your disagreements with the Catholic Faith, I invite you to reflect and focus on the deeper reasons for why you want to stay Catholic because recognizing the deepest reason (God is with the Catholic Church) can help you break down the walls of pride and sin in our lives.

Knowing the vast use of contraception in our world, we know you could easily choose many forms of contraception, yet you are in a spiritual battle over this issue. If you believed God was with contraception, you would use it, no question asked. However, in some depth of you, you know God is not with contraception, and you are finding yourself in a battle against God.

May you find the grace to trust God through the Church sooner than later, for you have the potential to be an amazing witness to the Love of Christ!
 
But when a husband and wife refrain from sex they are not saying “I don’t want you right now.” They are saying “we are going to express our love for each other in a different way right now.” It is the partner who insists the other modify themselves in some way who says “I don’t want the whole you right now.”

The couple that stays home for dinner is not saying “I don’t want to be seen in public with you.” The husband that insists his wife wear a bag over her head when they go out to eat is.
 
JMMJ said:
I am talking about a husband telling his wife “I don’t want you right now”.
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That is not what NFP is about and it is absolutely not what I said. It is not one of the partners making decisions without (name removed by moderator)ut; it is not about a lack of wanting; it is about the couple together deciding what they want their future to look like as far as number and spacing of children, and then making decisions together about when to embrace and when to abstain to try and achieve their goals, knowing all the while that God might have other ideas and accepting that fact.
 
Inquiry said:
The couple that stays home for dinner is not saying “I don’t want to be seen in public with you.” The husband that insists his wife wear a bag over her head when they go out to eat is.
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You didn’t address my question. Why does the Church teach that it is Ok for the couple to say they don’t want “all” of their spouse, at any point in time? That is what NFP is. They want to have sex, but they don’t want all of their spouse, so they refrain. Doesn’t seem like a great thing for the Church to promote.

Of course, I asked this question rhetorically. I already have figured it out. I don’t have a problem with contraception. I also don’t have a problem with NFP. I truly believe in couples deciding for themselves how they manage planning their families. And, if they are religious, incorporating a lot of prayer into that process.
 
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JMMJ said:
Why does the Church teach that it is Ok for the couple to say they don’t want “all” of their spouse, at any point in time?
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The Church does NOT teach that, and abstaining based on NFP is NOT saying that.
 
That’s not what NFP is. At all. Couples are not required to have sex at every opportunity (for one thing it would make going out to eat very awkward) so at times when they are not having sex they are not rejecting each other.

There are many ways for a husband and wife to express the totality of their love for each other whichever one the couple chooses they must engage in it fully and honestly.
 
I can explain it to you; I cannot understand it for you. You are completely mistaken on this particular point. I am out.
 
It is easily misunderstood (heck, read all of the different ways it is interpreted in this thread alone! The term “ordered” to procreation, is precise, I’d suggest a dive into the Catechism. At this link you can do a word search, look up “ordered”. Fascinating! http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
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