S
Sinner1
Guest
I guess what I’m wondering, though, is that if I have to talk to a priest about this issue, then does that mean that the Church does not say one way or the other?
- Status
K
KCT
Guest
I don’t have an answer to your question, but if you’ve read and read and read and are still having problems, maybe it’s not knowledge you need. Maybe it’s grace.
I don’t mean in a bad way, as in ‘state of grace’, I mean the grace for God to open your heart to the teaching. Ask Him. (if you haven’t already)
I don’t mean in a bad way, as in ‘state of grace’, I mean the grace for God to open your heart to the teaching. Ask Him. (if you haven’t already)
T
TAS2000
Guest
I suggest you think hard about why you disagree. Is it really logic? Your understanding of the facts? Or is it a feeling? From the word choices above it sounds like you resent the rules based on your feelings. Think you are above them and shouldn’t be forced to them. Like the teenager who resents not being allowed to go to the party. Dad has reasons and just because you think it is unfair now doesn’t meen when you are older you will look back and say, “Gee Dad, you were right.” After all you studied it, you know better. But sometimes we don’t know what we don’t know.
Well if you phrase it half heartedly, she probably wouldn’t be won over. BUT, she may also find the logic in it that you lack and could lead you to see the meaning in it as well. You won’t know unless you try.
God knows everything. If you had an allergy to one specific type of anesthesia
and were going for surgery and the form said "are you allergic to x? Would you not pipe up and make sure they knew about y? Hey its your LIFE were talking about right? Of course you would. So why would you think you could try to get off on a technicality for your SOUL? You really think HE won’t know you omitted a truth that would have been very important?Again, it sounds like a kid acting out. I should be able to do what I want because I want to. And I want it now! The church would not say you can’t ever marry this person. But are you really ready for marriage if you can’t see past your feelings of the moment? The church wants to make sure you get to heaven. Maybe if you tried harder to understand the reasons why the church teaches something so hard for you to understand, you’d start to appreciate the teaching more. Maybe you AND she would grow together and grow closer to God. Then when you both agree and see the wisdom, you’ll be better off.
Why would you even want to start a marraige if you seriously thought it was going to lead her to a behavior that you believe will jepordize her immortal soul? That doesn’t sound like something you’d do to someone you cared deeply about. It sounds like you are being very selfish; I love her, I should get to be with her, I shouldn’t be denied. But love is about the other person. She deserves the best, i want to do all i can to make her get to heaven.
N
noclevername
Guest
Can anyone quote the direct Catholic doctrine that says no BC? I looked but can’t find it. I think that’s what the OP is wanting.
K
kage_ar
Guest
**2399 **The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
**2370 **Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil: Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
Start with thesem read the foot notes in the Catechism to link to the Church documents such as HV.
To the OP, if you are so mad at Jesus that you are mentally ready to leave His Church for a non-existant non-Catholic woman, the issue may be bigger than contraception.
Have you sought spiritual direction? A book I would suggest is “Deep Conversion, Deep Prayer” by Fr. Dubay.
**2370 **Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil: Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
Start with thesem read the foot notes in the Catechism to link to the Church documents such as HV.
To the OP, if you are so mad at Jesus that you are mentally ready to leave His Church for a non-existant non-Catholic woman, the issue may be bigger than contraception.
Have you sought spiritual direction? A book I would suggest is “Deep Conversion, Deep Prayer” by Fr. Dubay.
S
Sinner1
Guest
Scoff at me all you want, but I don’t believe there is anything wrong with contraception.
Possible, but unlikely considering that so few Catholics are persuaded by the arguments. How much further do you think a non-Catholic would believe in NFP when they don’t believe that the pope has a stamp of authority on everything?
Oh really? If I just tried more than everything would work out? Do you know how much time I’ve spent in Adoration? Or how much theology/apologetics/spirituality I’ve read? Or how much time I’ve spent preparing to enter the seminary?God knows everything. If you had an allergy to one specific type of anesthesia
Again, it sounds like a kid acting out. I should be able to do what I want because I want to. And I want it now! The church would not say you can’t ever marry this person. But are you really ready for marriage if you can’t see past your feelings of the moment? The church wants to make sure you get to heaven. Maybe if you tried harder to understand the reasons why the church teaches something so hard for you to understand, you’d start to appreciate the teaching more. Maybe you AND she would grow together and grow closer to God. Then when you both agree and see the wisdom, you’ll be better off.
When you’re done belittling me, please tell me exactly what else I’m supposed to do so that I will believe in the Church’s stance on BC. And then tell me what I’m supposed to do if I still don’t believe.
So many loving marriages have been ruined because of NFP.
Now… can you please answer my question and not just insult me?
S
Sinner1
Guest
She’s actually very existent.
Yes, I’ve spent a good deal of time in spiritual direction. It left me with a distrust for the priesthood.
I have read some of Father Dubay’s work and have not been overly impressed. But I’ll add this book to my reading list.
N
noclevername
Guest
I will admit I don’t understand why BC is wrong. i personally take BC pills for health reasons. But there are so many families, many on this very forum, who have a lot of kids and can’t afford them. Young couples get married who need a few years for themselves before they bring kids into it. Like you said, other families have been torn apart because of NFP. And not all BC are like abortions (can’t think of the word). Condoms don’t cause abortion. Most BC pills don’t let the egg release therefore it can’t be fertilized so no abortion. Honestly, I am with you, I don’t understand the no BC either.
P
Priscilla_Ann
Guest
Our experience was much the same as yours, though we did our marriage prep 26 years ago. Contraception really wasn’t addressed, other than a very brief mention of NFP. There was certainly no condemnation of other methods. As you said, it “really wasn’t on our radar”.
Like you, we opted to use barrier methods…simple and no side effects. Due to my health issues, my husband had a vasectomy at the age of 37; and I had to have a hysterectomy at the age of 41.
As you said, not much support on these boards…
N
noclevername
Guest
Why should she compromise on his religious beliefs? It is OK in a Protestant church to use BC. Shouldn’t he respect her side of things as well? It takes two ya know.
C
ChristinaM
Guest
I wouldn’t assume just because a few unfortunate couples have posted about struggles with NFP, that it wrecks everybody’s marriage. More often than not it sounds like there are underlying problems that NFP is magnifying.
You seem really angry at the Church right now, and I’m not sure what I could tell you that you would find convincing. I know in my life sometimes I’ve just had to take a leap of faith. I do not mean this in any patronizing way, but I am going to pray for you.
B
bella_mama
Guest
Are you REALLY wanting answers about the Church and her opposition to artificial contraception or are you just here to argue? You said on a previous post on this forum that you hated being Catholic, and even repeated it. That being said, why are you still on here? Are you truly wanting others to convince you to stay Catholic or are you just bored with nothing else to do than post on the forum? I am not trying to be sarcastic or even argumentative, but you seem to have a quick little “come back” on each reply that someone posts trying to help you. Do you just want to see if someone finally tells you to go ahead and quit the Church if you are so inclined? When looking at the OP and replies with “fresh eyes” that haven’t been attempting to persuade you with Church teaching and practical applications, it would appear to be just that…
S
Sinner1
Guest
Thanks. This is what I’m trying to say.
S
Sinner1
Guest
T
TAS2000
Guest
I didn’t think i scoffed at you. Have you never had anything in your life that you thought you really wanted at the time or really disagreed with that you later came to understand? I can tell you becomeing a parent and speding more time learnign my faith AFTER i had finished the stuff my church taught me showed me a LOT of things in retrospect.
Wow total hostility! Peruse these boards for a while. You’ll see many here feel that our “catholic” educations were pathetic. How do you expect people to believe in stuff that was never taught or not taught well? But again you give a very childish arguement. Everyone else is doing it so why shouldn’t I? Majority rules is not a good reason for anything.
No I dont’ know how much time you’ve spent but I know that whatever it is was not enough. Some teachngs are easy for some and much harder for others. Some saints struggled for decades to get things right. The amount of time doesn’t matter, the outcome does. When you finally agree, then you will have spent enough time on it. You may die never agreeing, then you can discuss it with God himself and maybe he can convince you. But in the meantime, we are called to obey, even if we can’t agree. That’s not belittling, its the truth.
I don’t think I did insult you, but if you feel insulted, I’m sorry, I just pointed out your arguements seem very childish, so far you still haven’t given any reason as to why you feel the teaching is wrong other than to say it makes you mad.
I’m sorry you didn’t catch my analogy before, but I’ll try to make it clearer. If you purposely conceal information that you think might make your marriage sacrament invalid, then you are sinning. Maybe not mortally, but you wouldn’t be asking the question if you didn’t think it was wrong. This is a lie of omission and it is also directly supporting and aiding someone (your future wife) in commiting a sin (ABC). Your culpbility could be in question, typically the case is applied to someone in a marriage who did somethign BEFORE they knew better. Like a vasectomy, then a conversion. or a marriage before a conversion, where only one person has converted and accepts the teaching. This is not the case here. I couldn’t begin to judge how this might affect things.
S
Sinner1
Guest
I’m looking for an answer to my original question. I already stated that I don’t intend this to be a debate on birth control.
Quite honestly, I fear hell.
Are you referring to this thread, or other threads in the past?Are you truly wanting others to convince you to stay Catholic or are you just bored with nothing else to do than post on the forum? I am not trying to be sarcastic or even argumentative, but you seem to have a quick little “come back” on each reply that someone posts trying to help you. Do you just want to see if someone finally tells you to go ahead and quit the Church if you are so inclined? When looking at the OP and replies with “fresh eyes” that haven’t been attempting to persuade you with Church teaching and practical applications, it would appear to be just that…
I was looking for an answer to my question; but judging from the responses, it doesn’t look like the Church gives a clear answer. (Unless somebody can point me otherwise.)
Little comebacks? I usually try to reply to everybody who has responded to a thread I’ve created. I’ve been honest in everything that I’ve stated.
I will admit that what does make me mad is people who hold a holier than thou attitude and insinuate that I’m just not trying hard enough. Some responses, (but clearly not all), have treated me like I’m a child. This comes off as very arrogant to me.
A
Ame
Guest
I’m reading everything here and I can’t help but think about my great-grandmother. She believed in NFP and gave birth to fourteen children. She had three sons and eleven daughters - the girls were all named Mary or Marie and were distinguished by their middle names. My great-grandmother died at a young age because she had diabetes and her body was worn out. She left these children without a mother and they lived a very hard life without her. Are we really supposed to live that way?
T
TAS2000
Guest
But we aren’t talking about something that has already happened. They are not yet married. If he truly believes the church teaching that ABC is a sin, then he should not want her to sin. Its like saying well, she is a drug addict but i don’t believe in drugs. So she can do what she wants and I’ll do what i want. Her habit would affect their marrage, even if he wants to believe it won’t. If he knows that drugs are bad, he should want her to stop. Just because she believes they are ok, doesn’t make them ok.
S
Sinner1
Guest
Yes, of course I have. I am willing to accept the fact that I may someday come to believe in NFP. But for the time being, I don’t, which is why I’m in the dilemma I am now.
I never argued that. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Which is why I asked my original question. I am willing to grudgingly follow the Church’s teachings on BC, but I would have a hard time forcing my non-Catholic wife to follow it as well. So I want to know what the Church says on a situation like this.
I haven’t given any arguments. I’m not arguing against birth control.
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t know to what extent we can say we are aiding in somebody else’s sin. For instance, we could say that it is a sin to go to a Protestant service instead of a Catholic Mass on Sunday. So would it be a sin for me to drive my friend to a Protestant service? Or am I required to refuse to drive him?
I know that’s not a perfect analogy, but that’s what I’m trying to figure out, where that line is drawn. That’s why I was hoping that somebody could point me to something the Catholic Church has said on the issue, because I’m sure this has come up before.
T
Tessin
Guest
Hello,
I am not a Catholic, I am a Christian who is considering becoming Catholic. I also have concerns regarding the Church’s teaching on contraception, and am in a relationship with a non-Catholic Christian. It is an important subject to resolve, but I propose that it is equally important to consider your role as a spiritual leader for your future children (assuming you want children at all). What I mean is that I think it would be wise for you to first focus on finding your peace with God whether that be as Catholic or non-Catholic so that you can teach your children about God from a more joyful loving perspective. I believe that preparing to nurture our children into healthy adults is as important as considering why and how children should come into being in the first place. I’m not condemning where you are now - it is perfectly understandable. My heart goes out to you, as I know that being motivated primarily by fear is a miserable experience. Please don’t neglect your own spiritual health. Don’t worry so much about what other humans think - go straight to God and try to make your peace there (we should all do this more, btw). Have you ever tried contemplative prayer? Thomas Keating has some lectures and books available that I’ve found helpful.
Lovingly,
Tess
- Status