Contraception

[Sinner1]

But we aren’t talking about something that has already happened. They are not yet married. If he truly believes the church teaching that ABC is a sin, then he should not want her to sin. Its like saying well, she is a drug addict but i don’t believe in drugs. So she can do what she wants and I’ll do what i want. Her habit would affect their marrage, even if he wants to believe it won’t. If he knows that drugs are bad, he should want her to stop. Just because she believes they are ok, doesn’t make them ok.

But I don’t believe the Church’s teaching.

 

[Sinner1]

Hello,
I am not a Catholic, I am a Christian who is considering becoming Catholic. I also have concerns regarding the Church’s teaching on contraception, and am in a relationship with a non-Catholic Christian. It is an important subject to resolve, but I propose that it is equally important to consider your role as a spiritual leader for your future children (assuming you want children at all). What I mean is that I think it would be wise for you to first focus on finding your peace with God whether that be as Catholic or non-Catholic so that you can teach your children about God from a more joyful loving perspective. I believe that preparing to nurture our children into healthy adults is as important as considering why and how children should come into being in the first place. I’m not condemning where you are now - it is perfectly understandable. My heart goes out to you, as I know that being motivated primarily by fear is a miserable experience. Please don’t neglect your own spiritual health. Don’t worry so much about what other humans think - go straight to God and try to make your peace there (we should all do this more, btw). Have you ever tried contemplative prayer? Thomas Keating has some lectures and books available that I’ve found helpful.
Lovingly,
Tess

Thanks. You’re right, I don’t know how I could possibly be a good role model for my children, from a spiritual side, when I hate being Catholic. This is something that has kept me up at night.

If I did end up getting married and have kids, (which is a big if), it wouldn’t be for a while. Hopefully things will be better by then.

 

[Brenda_V]

I’m reading everything here and I can’t help but think about my great-grandmother. She believed in NFP and gave birth to fourteen children. She had three sons and eleven daughters - the girls were all named Mary or Marie and were distinguished by their middle names. My great-grandmother died at a young age because she had diabetes and her body was worn out. She left these children without a mother and they lived a very hard life without her. Are we really supposed to live that way?

OP, sorry for the sidetrack here but this can not go unanswered.

What your Grandmother knew as “NFP” was not NFP, that as a practice and knowledge of a woman’s cycle is relatively new. If I remember right it really started in the 1970’s so, unless your Grandmother had very predictable 28 day cycles what our parents and grandparents used for spacing their chidlren was the rythm method which for a good number of couples did not work. From what we now know about how the body works, hormones play an important role including insulin.

Also, chances are your grandmother would have died young any way since she had diabetes so please don’t correlate the number of children she had to her early death.

NFP is a good method but both have to be willing to use it. Part of the problem comes from how our society views sex - as a right for everyone whether married or not.

I will pray for the OP and others who are having a problem with NFP vs. contraception. Just one last thought, have you OP read the Hahn’s book “Rome Sweet Home”? I have not but understand that Mrs. Hahn wanted to start practicing NFP long before Mr. Hahn started his study of Catholicism and it was this aspect of their Marriage that helped her to convert. Just a thought, here you have a gifted writer/speaker who is a Protestant Minister and his wife who come home to Rome (so to speak).

Brenda V.

 

[ChristinaM]

I’m reading everything here and I can’t help but think about my great-grandmother. She believed in NFP and gave birth to fourteen children. She had three sons and eleven daughters - the girls were all named Mary or Marie and were distinguished by their middle names. My great-grandmother died at a young age because she had diabetes and her body was worn out. She left these children without a mother and they lived a very hard life without her. Are we really supposed to live that way?

NO, we are not supposed to live that way. Like I said, the Church has a lot to say about responsible parenthood. “Have as many children as humanly possible until you die of exhaustion” is very, very far from Church teaching.

This is very off-topic but I think we need to distinguish modern NFP from the “rhythm method.” If she even paid attention to such things, your great-grandmother probably practiced the “rhythm method” which was highly ineffective for women with irregular cycles. Actual NFP is not the same thing as the “rhythm method!”

I apologize to the OP for taking the thread off topic but I think if we are discussing the Church teaching on contraception we should at least represent it correctly…kwim?

 

[Sinner1]

I will pray for the OP.

Please don’t.

Just one last thought, have you OP read the Hahn’s book “Rome Sweet Home”? I have not but understand that Mrs. Hahn wanted to start practicing NFP long before Mr. Hahn started his study of Catholicism and it was this aspect of their Marriage that helped her to convert. Just a thought, here you have a gifted writer/speaker who is a Protestant Minister and his wife who come home to Rome (so to speak).

It’s been a long time since I’ve read it and I honestly don’t remember what he say’s about BC, so maybe I should re-read that again someday.

 

[vocatio]

… I am willing to grudgingly follow the Church’s teachings on BC, but I would have a hard time forcing my non-Catholic wife to follow it as well. So I want to know what the Church says on a situation like this.

That’s why I was hoping that somebody could point me to something the Catholic Church has said on the issue, because I’m sure this has come up before.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4655750

Since mmmcounts is a Protestant and won’t give any authority to ECFs or the CCC, here’s some good ol’ scripture:
Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground

Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed.

Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from God, and married couples must always be open to God’s plan for new life with every act of marital intimacy.

Lev.18:22-23;20:13 - wasting seed with non-generative sexual acts warrants death. Many Protestant churches, which have all strayed from the Catholic Church, reject this fundamental truth (few Protestants and Catholics realize that contraception was condemned by all of Christianity - and other religions - until the Anglican church permitted it in certain cases at the Lambeth conference in 1930. This opened the floodgates of error).

and MANY others

God Bless

Personal and painful testimony… will follow when I get the nerve as to why not to do this. It nearly destroyed my marriage. I reluctantly went along with her doing this at first and it was the first sign that God gave me about the wisdom of Church authority. But I was determined to make our marriage work. In my mind we were married, but the Church didn’t recognize it because it was a civil marriage in the Church’s view. We got married in a very conservative church, fundamentalists…evangelicals. Very good God fearing people determined to save souls. I fell for it.

After we had our first children 5 years into the marriage I wanted to continue and let God do the choosing. I figured out on my own that we had no right to prevent God from blessing us with life, children. But my wife’s family had tubiligations as many Protestants do. Sounds great if you’re in the marriage for sex. But not really. Frankly, I grew tired of her for not keeping open. She submitted to the passes, but continued to take the pill. I thought about hiding or throwing them away but knew that it would eventually lead to disaster. almost 7 years later we finally conceived another, but only after getting off of birth control. I felt like a real loser because part of her fear was that I didn’t make enough money or she was hiding something I didn’t understand. We were God fearing and loving people so what could possibly be the problem. I felt that this was a control, her only control in her life and maybe in the marriage. You see women were expected to submit to a man no matter what. I never bought into that, though once I submitted to it despirately trying to please her thinking that if I at least tried to be one of those men from her church she might become happier…worst mistake of my life so far. I immeidiately back peddled and recognized the wisdom of God again in creating the Catholic Church authority. Secretly, privately I returned to my original Catholic conscience and begged God to forgive me and asked that if he really wanted me to be Catholic that he first had to convert my wife on her own without me trying to get her too.

more later…the 3rd child, miracle healing, conversion, tubiligation and a broken heart. Truth is that many times I have felt like abandoning her for doing this to me, us, God. I feel that if she could do this what else can she possibly do to hurt me even more. Because of my ignorance and stupidity in thinking I know better I feel that I must stay if I want to be saved. Secondly, what would leaving do to her and our children. Point is that even though you may not see it now, you probably will later. It’s your choice. You don’t need us to explain or give references. You just want to find a loop hole. That’s on your head and the only people that will give it to you are non-Catholics or those that reject the churches teaching, beginning to sound like you at this point - no offense meant.

edited to add: Don’t let this short blurb of a testimony make you think I don’t love my wife. I’d give my life for her, in fact I already have. I gave up a vocation to the priesthood for her, partly to help her but mostly because I really heard a voice tell me it’s okay to marry her 3 times in a row in a crowed place with young “babes” hitting on me for the first time in my life even though I had no intention of taking them up on it. It’s a strange story but very true. I feel like God called me to this life of suffering for the Church by suffering for her, being patient. I wanted to throw the towel in so many times, but wouldn’t allow myself to even contemplate for more that a few seconds what that would be like. I knew God had a reason and now I see in part why. .

 

[vocatio]

Please don’t pray for the OP??
What a terribly uncharitable response. Why wouldn’t you want someone to pray for you? Not from the Holy Spirit you know. I will pray for you now…LOTH. Tonight and light a candle as well. Good night everybody. I need to do some soul searching. There are so many people trying to make the same mistakes I made years ago and the more we pray for them the more likely they are to receive graces to lift up the dark glasses their wearing.

 

[Sinner1]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4655750

Is there anything other than the OT? I don’t mean to sound picky, but the OT has a lot of bizarre rules and regulations, so I was hoping for something more current.

Personal and painful testimony… will follow when I get the nerve as to why not to do this. It nearly destroyed my marriage. I reluctantly went along with her doing this at first and it was the first sign that God gave me about the wisdom of Church authority. But I was determined to make our marriage work. In my mind we were married, but the Church didn’t recognize it because it was a civil marriage in the Church’s view. We got married in a very conservative church, fundamentalists…evangelicals. Very good God fearing people determined to save souls. I fell for it.

After we had our first children 5 years into the marriage I wanted to continue and let God do the choosing. I figured out on my own that we had no right to prevent God from blessing us with life, children. But my wife’s family had tubiligations as many Protestants do. Sounds great if you’re in the marriage for sex. But not really. Frankly, I grew tired of her for not keeping open. She submitted to the passes, but continued to take the pill. I thought about hiding or throwing them away but knew that it would eventually lead to disaster. almost 7 years later we finally conceived another, but only after getting off of birth control. I felt like a real loser because part of her fear was that I didn’t make enough money or she was hiding something I didn’t understand. We were God fearing and loving people so what could possibly be the problem. I felt that this was a control, her only control in her life and maybe in the marriage. You see women were expected to submit to a man no matter what. I never bought into that, though once I submitted to it despirately trying to please her thinking that if I at least tried to be one of those men from her church she might become happier…worst mistake of my life so far. I immeidiately back peddled and recognized the wisdom of God again in creating the Catholic Church authority. Secretly, privately I returned to my original Catholic conscience and begged God to forgive me and asked that if he really wanted me to be Catholic that he first had to convert my wife on her own without me trying to get her too.

more later…the 3rd child, miracle healing, conversion, tubiligation and a broken heart. Truth is that many times I have felt like abandoning her for doing this to me, us, God. I feel that if she could do this what else can she possibly do to hurt me even more. Because of my ignorance and stupidity in thinking I know better I feel that I must stay if I want to be saved. Secondly, what would leaving do to her and our children. Point is that even though you may not see it now, you probably will later.

I appreciate the story. Everybody has different experiences. And yes, maybe someday it will all make sense to me.

It’s your choice. You don’t need us to explain or give references. You just want to find a loop hole. That’s on your head and the only people that will give it to you are non-Catholics or those that reject the churches teaching, beginning to sound like you at this point - no offense meant.

Maybe subconsciously I am looking for a loophole. But right now I have somebody I deeply care for and a faith that I hate being a part of. I don’t mean to reject God.

 

[Sinner1]

Please don’t pray for the OP??
What a terribly uncharitable response.

I didn’t mean for it to be uncharitable.

Why wouldn’t you want someone to pray for you?

It is a kind gesture and I appreciate the willingness to help, but I’d rather this person not pray for me.

Not from the Holy Spirit you know. I will pray for you now…LOTH. Tonight and light a candle as well.

Thanks, but please don’t. Pray for somebody else instead.

 

[kage_ar]

Why should she compromise on his religious beliefs? It is OK in a Protestant church to use BC. Shouldn’t he respect her side of things as well? It takes two ya know.

God’s laws apply to all people.

Those who are not Catholic who use artificial birth control or are sterilized are still committing a grave sin. They may have less culpability because they do not KNOW it is a grave sin, so, if the sin is mortal or not is something known only to God.

 

[Joya]

Sinner,

You are probably aware that many priests and theologians are on your side regarding this issue. Basically, you’re not alone in your thoughts. I consider you to be a thinking, conscientious, intelligent person.

Bottom line: don’t let this one issue destroy your faith, your relationship with the Church, and your trust in God. Use your conscience.

Personally, I think nfp has the potential to be a beautiful method of family planning, but it is not a one size fits all method. I know several devout Catholic women who because of erratic cycles, hormone changes, etc. could not get the science down and opted to use non-anti-implantation methods. I am one of them and I am no longer in hysterics because of my decision. On the other hand, I know of a few people who use nfp so accurately that I don’t see much moral difference between them and abc users.

If you cannot agree with the Church’s stand, accept it rather than fight it and be bitter. Accept the journey that this struggle is taking you on and even if you never come to agreement with the Church on nfp, then so be it.

 

[noclevername]

But we aren’t talking about something that has already happened. They are not yet married. If he truly believes the church teaching that ABC is a sin, then he should not want her to sin. Its like saying well, she is a drug addict but i don’t believe in drugs. So she can do what she wants and I’ll do what i want. Her habit would affect their marrage, even if he wants to believe it won’t. If he knows that drugs are bad, he should want her to stop. Just because she believes they are ok, doesn’t make them ok.

I absolutely cannot believe you are comparing a drug addict to a Protestant who is using a birth control. The two are NOT comparable. You are saying the Protestant church is wrong and that you are better than them. What gives you the right to insult the Protestant church like that?

 

[bella_mama]

I’m reading everything here and I can’t help but think about my great-grandmother. She believed in NFP and gave birth to fourteen children. She had three sons and eleven daughters - the girls were all named Mary or Marie and were distinguished by their middle names. My great-grandmother died at a young age because she had diabetes and her body was worn out. She left these children without a mother and they lived a very hard life without her. Are we really supposed to live that way?

Chances are, your great-grandmother did not practice NFP. What was known back in those days as “the rhythm method” IS NOT the same as the NFP we have today. Today’s NFP is very scientific in comparision to "well, I don’t* think*** I’m fertile. This is exactly what another member meant in saying we’ve been poorly catechized…you should look up the Couple-to-Couple League and what we have available today in comparison to what most referred to as “Catholic roulette”.

 

[TAS2000]

I absolutely cannot believe you are comparing a drug addict to a Protestant who is using a birth control. The two are NOT comparable. You are saying the Protestant church is wrong and that you are better than them. What gives you the right to insult the Protestant church like that?

So now I’m insulting a whole church? I must be on a roll. Or else some people have no idea what an analogy is. Why are they not comparable? Objective truth means if somethign is wrong it is always wrong, not just based on your perspective. You can believe the sky is red but that doens’t make it so. It is our Christain duty to admonish the sinner. If we know something is a sin, then we are obligated to share that knowledge. The Catholic church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ. It IS better than a protestant denomination founded by men who reject the churches teaching because it doesn’t fit with what they feel should be right. IS it better in every aspect? No, there are a lot of things about protestant churches to be admired. BUT a sin is a sin. Pretending it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

 

[noclevername]

So now I’m insulting a whole church? I must be on a roll. Or else some people have no idea what an analogy is. Why are they not comparable? Objective truth means if somethign is wrong it is always wrong, not just based on your perspective. You can believe the sky is red but that doens’t make it so. It is our Christain duty to admonish the sinner. If we know something is a sin, then we are obligated to share that knowledge. The Catholic church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ. It IS better than a protestant denomination founded by men who reject the churches teaching because it doesn’t fit with what they feel should be right. IS it better in every aspect? No, there are a lot of things about protestant churches to be admired. BUT a sin is a sin. Pretending it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

You are really a piece of work. I am so insulted I just don’t know what to say.

 

[Good_Daughter]

If we couldn’t come to an agreement on using NFP, would I be required not to get married to her?

On your own you have so much conflict over this issue, I can’t imagine trying to come to an agreement with another person. Any girl with an ounce of sense is going to say, “You believe one thing yet follow another, how do I even know what to try to agree with?”.

The important thing is that she respect your beliefs, and you respect hers. Life is a journey toward truth and in good marriage, you get a travelling companion to make the trip even better.

Mixed marriages are certainly permitted in Catholicism (CCC 1634) even though very few non-Catholics oppose contraception, so no, the Church isn’t likely to require you not to marry her but, considering the weight of the disagreement, common sense might dictate a wait.

Or can I get married with knowledge that she will be using contraception, even though she knows I’m opposed to it?

If she’s not Catholic, she’s not bound to follow Catholic teaching. Her non-Catholicism is not necessarily an impediment to marriage.

Would it be a mortal sin to have sex when you know the other person is contracepting, even if you have voiced your objections?

Provided you’re validly married and you, as a Catholic, are not contracepting, it’s not a sin for you at all, let alone a mortal sin.

 

[HouseArrest]

Okay I am going to try an analogy here, bear with me if it does not make any sense:

Your original question was how you are going to convince your wife to use something you don’t agree with using:

Your family is going on one vacation and each one of you has a different idea of where you should go. You are all very adamant about the destination. You’re fighting about it. Finally, you decide that even though your trip to the beach costs less, is closer, and you think everyone would love it the best when they finally got there, you override that in your mind and think you should go where your Mom wants to go because, well, she’s your Mom, and you can list a thousand reasons to do what she wants. So her trip idea is to go to an adventure trip that are expensive and far away. Also - your sister isn’t so outdoorsy and your father just wants to veg on vacation.

Sooo - you talk to your father and your sister and try to convince them to go on Mom’s vacation. You still don’t think it’s the best vacation choice but you’re finding yourself trying to convice people to do something you don’t want to do because there is a bigger, more important reason.

Maybe after you get back, you might look back and think - that WAS the best choice after all. We interacted with each other more than we would have at the beach or vegging or whatever - and your sister tried something new.

Think of it this way. NFP is information. I actually think every young woman should know it. It’s telling us how our bodies work. Imagine! I actually know a whole lot of non Catholics who use NFP. There are a lot of benefits to using NFP that I won’t go into.

I am not quite sure how you KNOW it’s NFP ruining these marriages?

 

[PJM]

I don’t think it will be a mortal sin for you if your spouse is taking birth control. However, you should NOT use this as an easy way out.

My dear friends in Christ. I differ with your expressed opinion.

For a sin to be a “Mortal Sin” three elements must be present.

One: It must be “serious matter”. Obviously it is:thumbsup:

Two: One has to know it’s a serious matter. Obviously it is:thumbsup:

Three: One must wish to commit the sin anyway: Here, you might put forth that the one party who does not abide Catholic teaching, is thus not bound by Catholic Teaching? But as Catholic Teaching, in a very real sense is God’s own theaching, it does bind all peoples. Even though the issue of cupability comes into play here.

Further, the informed practcing Catholic, is aware of the RCC position (and thus God’s own teaching on the matter) but is going to go along with his wifes decession, to avoid argument.

Please know, as Pope JP II makes extremely clear in his Godpel of Life", **that it is NEVER permissible to “do an evil act inorder to accomplish a good.” **

Thus, this would be a Mortal Sin.

Additonally the fact that the husband is “the head of the household” and at least morally accountable to be such, and as a Catholic is further morally obligated to practice his face in full -communion with the RCC teachings.

You need to start with trying your absolute best to understand the Church’s teaching on contraception, and why NFP is allowed in grave circumstances.

Amen, again I say AMEN!

I was like you about 2 1/2 years ago. I am 22 years old, and have been with my now husband since I was 16. We knew we would be married by the time I was 18, but decided to wait until I was done with college. We both couldn’t understand why on Earth it was so horrible for us to show our love to eachother through sex. We would never share it with another, we would be married, we would lovingly accept any children that were sent our way.

I am SO GLAD I finally saw the light. I cannot tell you how much it has helped our relationship. I started reading a lot of threads on here and noticed a lot of people liked Christopher West’s talks on Theology of the Body. I went to Catholic school for 13 yrs, so I knew what Theology of the Body was. From the mouth of a sinner, Mr. West tells how he came to understand TOB so well. My then fiance and I listened to a 4 hr talk on CD on our long drive back to school and were amazed by how much we didn’t know. I was finally finding out the “whys” behind all the things I was told “don’t do it, because it’s against the Church”. But Why? That’s what I really needed to understand, and once I did, and once we did together our relationship became even better (at a time when I thought we were as close as we could be).

I really think your first step, if you really see yourself as Catholic, is to try to understand the Church’s teachings. After all, your job as a husband is to get your wife to heaven, and how can you do that if you’re not even sure what you believe?

Great post:clapping:

 

[Luke65]

Does everybody know why we are here? This Creation has but one purpose: To bring children into the eternal Kingdom of God. We are merely pilgrims here, trying to help expand the Kingdom. And that is why living a life of sacrifice for others, for the sake of the Kingdom, is the most pleasing thing to God. Our Lord asks us to nail our will to His Cross and do His will. And He tells us His grace is sufficient for us to do that. Do we trust Him? Do we trust that He gave us His Church so that we would know exactly what He requires of us, to help us stay on that straight and narrow path that leads to Him? To give us the gifts of the Holy Spirit - sacramental graces - that help us discern what His will is for us and live our lives accordingly? Please trust God, He knows what He is doing. Obey His Church, even if you don’t understand or agree with any particular teachings. If you stay in His grace He will explain it all to you, just be patient and persevere until the end. The reward is eternal - and the more the merrier! God bless.

 

[GailMac4]

Dear Sinner 1 - you state:"

Although I’m certainly not at that point yet, I have been thinking about marriage. The thing is, though, she is not Catholic.

I personally have issues with the Church’s stance on contraception. I have read a lot of literature on the subject, but I just don’t agree with it. The whole thing makes me kind of mad, to be honest. But as much as I hate the contraception issue, I would willing to follow the Church’s teaching. (Grumbling the whole way, I’m sure!)

What I’m wondering now is how things would work out if I were to marry a non-Catholic. I don’t think I would be able to win her over with arguments on why we should use NFP; especially since I don’t buy the arguments myself.

If we couldn’t come to an agreement on using NFP, would I be required not to get married to her? Or can I get married with knowledge that she will be using contraception, even though she knows I’m opposed to it? Would it be a mortal sin to have sex when you know the other person is contracepting, even if you have voiced your objections?

I would really hate the idea of not being able to get married to somebody I deeply care for all because of a church teaching that I can’t stand.

I don’t intend for this thread to be a debate on contraception so I don’t need everybody responding with literature I should read on why NFP is good.

It is obvious that you aren’t ready for marriage. You can’t think about using either contraception or the ignorance of another person to “get away” with it. You’re supposedly Catholic. We don’t use chemical or other means to abort babies. If you think that this is an open issue, then perhaps you need to have a long talk with your parish priest before you ruin yourself for marriage. Sins have consequences. You’re thinking of knowingly commiting mortal sins AND trying to use the ignorance of another person to “get away” with it.

You’re really dumb. The goal of marriage is to get you and the soul of you’re loved one to Heaven. That’s quite a commitment. Once that realization has sunk in, then you get to think about the souls of you’re children.

But I don’t think you’re of that type of mind, are you? Instead you’re here at Catholic Answers looking for excuses to use to “help” you sin mortally. Mortal sins will get you Hell.

So, if you’d like to go there…

Peace,

Gail