Contract Urges Catholic School Teachers to Live Moral Teachings

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I have never said that we do not need Confession. We do need to confess our sins, recognizing that we are guilty. I believe that shame can actually take us farther away from God, as it can cause despair. I know from personal experience that when I was going through a rough patch and felt awful about it I shied away from the Church out of shame. It was being reminded of God’s willingness to forgive that brought me back. Consider the prodigal son. Yes, he repented. As soon as he did so, his father welcomed him back with open arms and slaughtered the fattened calf. I believe this is a wise pastoral approach. I believe that we are in a habit of focusing intensely on a handful of sins and assuming that those individuals are not repentant. People have pointed out that we don’t know if this woman had sex outside of wedlock once or one thousand times. Imagine if she made a horrible one-time mistake and feels guilty and ashamed. She is contrite and repents but is still fired. Some might say it is an employment agreement, but I find the fact that we want to consider our teachers as lay ministers telling. Ministers have more than a mere job, and the Church’s public activities are different than other employers’ activities. The Church’s role is to proclaim Christ in all her activities. When we as the Church pay no attention to her contrition, we send the message that because her sin falls into a certain category her repentance is not enough. I can only speak based on the scripture, but my impression of Jesus is decidedly different. We, as the corporate Church, have an opportunity to treat her as Jesus treated the sinful women he encountered, encouraging them to move forward and go and sin no more! If I would have observed the living of this message during my childhood in Catholic schools, perhaps I would not have stayed away from the Church when I most desperately needed her. Considering that more than 90% of people falter sexually before marriage, some of the children of today will falter. They need to be taught to repent, but once they have repented, we must show them God’s unfailing mercy. What better way to do so than by having something positive come out of a sinful situation.

I understand what you’re saying but it will not go the way you described. Good role models were common when I was growing up, including some people in show business. But today? Very few. Christ won’t abandon those who make a mistake, the Church won’t abandon someone who makes a mistake, but our children are our future and Catholic School Teachers should be held accountable. The media is constantly promoting unmarried sex as a good, normal, average, “Hey. What’s the big deal?” thing. Kids need to see those who are in temporary authority over them in a Catholic school take the responsibility to model good behavior with the proper seriousness. It needs to be black and white. No more vagueness. No more sex (and pregnancy) without marriage comes with zero consequences.

I watched the radicals say, “WE only want this” but when they got it, they always wanted more. We owe it to the next generation to get the best of the best. He or she will not be drummed out of the Church - no priest will come to wherever you live and start pounding on the door because you missed Mass on Sunday, but lines need to be drawn. A lot of lines. If we’re going to raise good Catholics, they need to know that even their teachers have rules they can’t break.

The “progressives” want their version of progress, which mostly consists of convincing people that sexual sin - which represents the bulk of our current social ills - is perfectly fine. Abort, contracept, have sex with whoever, divorce (not because you or the kids were abused) because It’s No-Fault now, and the grass is greener elsewhere. Marriage? Who cares? We’ll just live together. Get a vasectomy.

I’m meeting way too many people with two divorces under their belt. I know one person who is on marriage number three. I saw a little kid cussing out mom in a parking lot. It’s gone too far. Waaaaaay too far. Rules? What rules?

I know a lot of people were gradually led away from the faith by those who hate the Church. Their trust was abused. But instead of realizing that there are people, especially the media, continuing to lead them astray, there are some who come to realize that whatever they’re doing might actually be wrong. They might even get to the point where they realize that those “alternative lifestyles” were really bad choices. Some may look back on that abortion, series of sexual encounters and others things and feel like the Church/God can’t forgive them. They feel afraid. Don’t be afraid. They feel ashamed. That’s OK. That’s why the Church started Catholics Come Home. They are waiting for their prodigal sons and daughters:

catholicscomehome.org/

We need to end the vagueness. In the past, I heard it all: “The nuns are too strict! Your parents are too strict! All you do is listen to the Pope!” From personal experience, even though I did my share of bad/wrong things, all of that strictness shaped me and molded me into an adult who looked back and appreciated the fact that I got what I needed. That the so-called strictness was for my benefit, and made me a better person who got what the Church was telling me. And though it was painful to me each time a new wrong freedom was granted in our country, I knew it was wrong. And the more people who openly, publicly deviated from all that — well, here we are. And it’s not better. No, the past was not perfect but it was a lot better than what we have now.

It’s time to draw this line.

Peace,
Ed
 
Um, note that I said repentant. If you are repentant, would you teach these things are OK? Nope. What you would do is point out that we are called to follow the commandments. You have failed in this. Everybody else falls into sin at some point too! The good news is that through repentance you can be redeemed. We’re all sinners in need of repentance. You would admit your wrongdoing and seek forgiveness. I want teachers who are living lives of conversion, no matter what sin they may have committed. Why should only teachers who have committed sexual sins be drummed out? What about the teacher who once shoplifted or the one who denied the faith but has come back? How is saying, for instance, I sinned when I (fornicated, lied, stole, etc.) a problem? I am trying to do better. We are called to conversion. As a teacher of the Church’s wisdom, I’d encourage you not to go down the same path. At the same time, when you do fail, you can always repent. How is this so difficult? I feel like we don’t have the same definition of basic terms like repentance
 
If we won’t let repentant sinners teach, who’s left?
There are other private groups that have rules. Break them and you’re out. One of the biggest lies spread during the Hippie era was “If two consenting adults want to have sex, it’s OK.” Time to end that kind of thinking, which is based on another lie. “Most people cannot control their sexual desires.”

It’s time to wake up, my fellow Catholics. Wake up and realize we’ve been on the wrong road for over 40 years. Time’s up. Progress usually means diminishing our sensitivity to sin. That’s got to end now. It’s time to show young people that there are Catholics who are committed and willing and able to live a Clean Life. That want to live their lives according to what the Church teaches and not follow the way of the world. We need high standards. Higher standards. Because low standards are not going to help anybody. By being good role models in word and deed, their students will realize “it is possible. Being a good, solid Catholic who does as the Church teaches is possible.”

The Hippie-era counter-culture has worked hard to be the predominant culture or, at least, that part of our society that gets the most press. That culture needs to be rejected. Not the people but the behaviors. Wrong is wrong and right is right. Not black is white and up is down.

It should be very, very clear that a lot of false and harmful freedoms have been legalized, but are they for us? No. And no. By having such teachers, our children will more likely be morally upright and renew the culture, both for Catholics and all men of good will.

Peace,
Ed
 
I honestly believe I am just unusual for this board. I don’t know many people who can claim a Clean Life. There seems to be a majority of people here who have one. I have to rely on God’s mercy with my best efforts or there is no place for me in heaven. If the Church is a private club where you are out if you break a rule, I’ve been deceived by the Pope. These are the times when I sort of lose hope.
 
I don’t think anyone is calling for Catholic school teachers to live perfect, sin free lives…But to promote one’s impossible “marriage” to a member of the same sex and live that relationship in the public spotlight, contravening the Church’s clear, infallible teaching, is not an example of a “repentant” Catholic school teacher…
 
Um, note that I said repentant. If you are repentant, would you teach these things are OK? Nope. What you would do is point out that we are called to follow the commandments. You have failed in this. Everybody else falls into sin at some point too! The good news is that through repentance you can be redeemed. We’re all sinners in need of repentance. You would admit your wrongdoing and seek forgiveness. I want teachers who are living lives of conversion, no matter what sin they may have committed. Why should only teachers who have committed sexual sins be drummed out? What about the teacher who once shoplifted or the one who denied the faith but has come back? How is saying, for instance, I sinned when I (fornicated, lied, stole, etc.) a problem? I am trying to do better. We are called to conversion. As a teacher of the Church’s wisdom, I’d encourage you not to go down the same path. At the same time, when you do fail, you can always repent. How is this so difficult? I feel like we don’t have the same definition of basic terms like repentance
You are splitting hairs here. The reason certain teachers and school staff have been terminated is that they were NOT repentant, did NOT renounce their sinful past and wanted to continue being employed.

We are all sinners and we have hopefully sought reconciliation and are trying each day to live a more Christlike life. The point is that the issue being discussed is when people refuse to abide by their contracts and want to continue in their sinful state. Not only does this violate their contract but it also violates the agreement that the school made with the parents who are paying extra money to have a CATHOLIC education with positive role models not openly sinful lifestyles.

So one more time and quit trying to have both sides covered; if a teacher under contract at a Catholic school breached the contract (say a gay teacher “married” or a single female teacher was involved in a sexual relationship) and refused to comply with the contract should we still “forgive” them by allowing them to retain their jobs?

I say no and that we are not the appropriate party to be offering forgiveness since we are not a party to the contract or the sin

Lisa
 
If someone is not repentant, we must let them go. I am not splitting hairs! I am worried that a legal contract will leave little room for truly repentant persons. When we fail here, we fail at the entire purpose of the Faith. It’s pretty serious to my mind and deserves consideration. I was the kid who could recite every rule. I’d rather my child come home and say, “You know, Miss Smith made a serious mistake. She had a baby out of wedlock. She said it’s really hard, but she is trying to do the best she can from now on. I’m so glad God forgives. I’m so glad God made rules for our well being and that he never forsakes us in the valley of the shadow of death.” Give me that kid over the Pharisee I was anytime.
 
I honestly believe I am just unusual for this board. I don’t know many people who can claim a Clean Life. There seems to be a majority of people here who have one. I have to rely on God’s mercy with my best efforts or there is no place for me in heaven. If the Church is a private club where you are out if you break a rule, I’ve been deceived by the Pope. These are the times when I sort of lose hope.
We are to strive to be holy. We don’t wake up one day and poof, we’re holy.

cuf.org/2004/11/called-to-be-holy/

The Bible and Jesus tell us what to do, along with the Church He established. The farther Catholics get from even trying becomes an obstacle. I recall Pope Benedict stating in an article that I read that if we could just spend 5 minutes a day with God, it would help us.

Comparing the topic of school teachers to being a sinner and suggesting the Pope is deceiving anyone is… I don’t get it.

I’m just at risk as the next guy regarding getting into heaven. Extremist comments are not helping move this discussion along.

Peace,
Ed
 
If anything, the Pope has made it a point that the Church is not a exclusive club but an open invitation. If you are right with your private club comment, then the Pope must be wrong. I would have been deceived!

I didn’t think basically saying we should make sure to love sinners and consider the Pope’s recent exhortations on love and self-conversion would be extremist. You all obviously know far more than I do.
 
If someone is not repentant, we must let them go. I am not splitting hairs! I am worried that a legal contract will leave little room for truly repentant persons. When we fail here, we fail at the entire purpose of the Faith. It’s pretty serious to my mind and deserves consideration. I was the kid who could recite every rule. I’d rather my child come home and say, “You know, Miss Smith made a serious mistake. She had a baby out of wedlock. She said it’s really hard, but she is trying to do the best she can from now on. I’m so glad God forgives. I’m so glad God made rules for our well being and that he never forsakes us in the valley of the shadow of death.” Give me that kid over the Pharisee I was anytime.
Well if you are not splitting hairs you are trying to put God and Mammon back together again. A contract is one thing and if valid should be upheld even if the person breaching the contract has negative consequences. Forgiving someone for past sins isn’t even relevant to the discussion of an employment agreement. I don’t know why you think you can mix’nmatch completely different concepts.

This doesn’t mean anyone who wishes a valid contract to be upheld is sinless nor do they claim to be nor has ANYONE said that if you sin you’re voted off the island. Catholicism isn’t a club with rules and no one has suggested this at all. You are trying to pretend that somehow it’s “more Catholic” to allow someone to breach a contract when this is a secular element of life, not a religious practice. The sinful teacher is welcome to return to Mass and interact with all the rest of us sinners but she doesn’t get her job back.

Lisa
 
I’m actually just pointing out that if we argue for teachers as lay ministers and therefore subject to unique requirements, then we cannot turn around and separate school and Church when dealing with problem teachers. If teachers and administrators are representatives of the Church, then we must be concerned with contracts providing the fullness of Catholicism. If school and Church are separate, then the contract is legally problematic. You can’t combine Church and school to increase expectations without embracing the entire sin-repentance truth. The very basis of the legal argument is that Church and school are not separate. School is not a secular matter here. This contract makes it very much a religious matter!
 
I’m actually just pointing out that if we argue for teachers as lay ministers and therefore subject to unique requirements, then we cannot turn around and separate school and Church when dealing with problem teachers. If teachers and administrators are representatives of the Church, then we must be concerned with contracts providing the fullness of Catholicism. If school and Church are separate, then the contract is legally problematic. You can’t combine Church and school to increase expectations without embracing the entire sin-repentance truth. The very basis of the legal argument is that Church and school are not separate. School is not a secular matter here. This contract makes it very much a religious matter!
No I truly do not think you understand contracting. One can request any provision unless it is illegal. Many of these cases are not even with respect to Catholic schools but to other religious or private schools that require their teaching staff and even the admin staff to adhere to specific requirements. It’s NOT a religious issue other than the morals clauses might reflect a specific religion’s teaching. For example if it were a Hebrew school, the teachers might be required to be Orthodox and adhere to the dietary laws whereas if it were a Catholic school that would be irrelevant but there would be restrictions against same sex relationships or out of wedlock pregnancies.

So the contract REFLECTS the religion but they are separate concepts. As Catholics we are not supposed to be prideful for example. A prideful teacher is engaging in sin but it’s unlikely this is part of her contract. However if the teacher gets pregnant and isn’t married, this would be a breach of the contract as well as being a sin. But the teachers are not being fired for sin but for specific immoral acts.

Lisa
 
Ahhh, I misunderstood! I still think it sends the wrong message, but lots of things that are technically legal still do. I’d encourage further dialogue with outsiders and uniformity among institutions. I’d also encourage the spirit instead of the letter of the law in practice. Thank you for the clarification!
 
Ahhh, I misunderstood! I still think it sends the wrong message, but lots of things that are technically legal still do. I’d encourage further dialogue with outsiders and uniformity among institutions. I’d also encourage the spirit instead of the letter of the law in practice. Thank you for the clarification!
 
Ahhh, I misunderstood! I still think it sends the wrong message, but lots of things that are technically legal still do. I’d encourage further dialogue with outsiders and uniformity among institutions. I’d also encourage the spirit instead of the letter of the law in practice. Thank you for the clarification!
Thanks for the response. When dealing with contracts, regardless of the spirit of the law or the good intentions or the negative consequences to those breaching, I believe that it’s necessary to consistently apply the provisions of the contract regardless of the personal appeal of the person breaching. Unfortunately the media is so secular, so anti-Catholic that when stories such as the teacher who was terminated for a same sex “marriage” occur, the Church is demonized and criticized for simply upholding the contract that the person willingly and freely signed.

My thought is that it sends a worse message to allow those who are supposed to uphold Catholic teaching to ignore those teachings and thus lead others to sin or to conveniently ignore those teachings that they do not wish to follow. Further when one is hired and paid by a religious organization and one of the contract provisions is knowingly violated, the person who violated the contract should not be the party getting the sympathy. People are responsible both for the contracts they sign and for not breaching the contract. Saying “oh neverrmind…” is not appropriate.

Lisa
 
If anything, the Pope has made it a point that the Church is not a exclusive club but an open invitation. If you are right with your private club comment, then the Pope must be wrong. I would have been deceived!

I didn’t think basically saying we should make sure to love sinners and consider the Pope’s recent exhortations on love and self-conversion would be extremist. You all obviously know far more than I do.
I know enough about psychological warfare to be disappointed to see it happening here.

Ed
 
I am sorry you took the comment that way. I should have been less facetious. My intention was not to engage in psychological warfare of any type. I was merely frustrated that you seemed to be accusing me of having unstable morals, including being in favor of illegal drug use and an “absolutely anything goes mentality.” I did not feel my comments were out of line with recent Papal sermons. As far as warfare, I feel you repeatedly accused me of things I never stated. However, I should have handled that better. I apologize.
 
I am sorry you took the comment that way. I should have been less facetious. My intention was not to engage in psychological warfare of any type. I was merely frustrated that you seemed to be accusing me of having unstable morals, including being in favor of illegal drug use and an “absolutely anything goes mentality.” I did not feel my comments were out of line with recent Papal sermons. As far as warfare, I feel you repeatedly accused me of things I never stated. However, I should have handled that better. I apologize.
I understand. The part I don’t understand is why you made some of the conclusions you did when I did not explicitly say certain things. Also, as a moderator elsewhere, it always surprises me when I or someone else makes a general statement and one or more people accuse me (or another person) of referring to them in particular. The topic is the primary subject and my comments are generally intended for all. I am sorry you felt I was accusing you in particular. I was not.

Peace,
Ed
 
If we won’t let repentant sinners teach, who’s left?
Which teacher repented. The one that got pregnant out of wedlock? She is living with her girlie friend and got pregannat on purpose! She is now suing the school. Doesn’t sound repentant to me. How about the Homo that got married to his boifriend. Nope no repentance there.

What exactly are you talking about? Are you saying the school district should not be allowed to have moral contracts for their teachers because of the past child abuse in the church? Pope BXVI basically fired/defrocked/laicized over 400 hundred priests for their conduct. This isn’t good enough for you?

Hmmm, you are really not making sense. I have an 8 year old daughter in a wonderful Catholic school. I don’t want her exposed to anything like the junk these so called teachers are throwing at there students.

It really is intolerable!

Peace:thumbsup:
 
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