Contradiction/Falsehood in Catholic Funeral Liturgy?

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cornelius-ve

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Hello,

I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that a person cannot know that he or she is saved. Could you help me understand why these following quotes are present in the Catholic funeral liturgy?

"May our farewell express our affection for him/her; may it ease our sadness and strengthen our hope. One day we shall joyfully greet him/her again when the love of Christ, which conquers all things, destroys even death itself.”

“Although this congregation will disperse in sorrow, the mercy of God will gather us together again in the joy of his kingdom. Therefore let us console one another in the faith of Jesus Christ.”

“Into your hands, Father of mercies, we commend our brother/sister (N.) in the sure and certain hope that, together with all who have died in Christ, he/she will rise with him on the last day.”

With these quotes from the Catholic funeral liturgy, could we not safely assume that the deceased person is in Heaven, and that the Christians assembled at the gathering with meet the departed in Heaven again?

Thank you for your time in helping me to understand this seeming contradiction.
 
Hello Fauken,

Thank you for your quick answer. Why do the quotes assume that the meeting at the final judgement will be joyful? Can the deceased and all present at the Mass assume that they are saved? Those who are damned will not experience joy, but weeping and gnashing of teeth, no?
 
If the Catholic Church, by writing this liturgy, assumes that the meeting at the last judgement will be joyful for the deceased and all gathered, would that not indicate that the Catholic Church is telling people the deceased and those gathered are all saved?
 
Welcome!

I hope that your picking and choosing is not meant with ill will. Having said that:

When seeming contradictions arise in the 2,000 year old Church which Christ founded, it is always best to doubt ourselves first. The liturgy is the most well-vetted human procedure on earth, scrutinized by the masters of the faith over the millennia and lead by the Holy Spirit.

Saint Paul wrote that we have a “sure hope” of achieving God’s Kingdom if we run the race so as to win. But, “hope”, while being the second of the theological virtues is no absolute guarantee, as God is Sovereign and is no respecter of men and their ideas.

What we DO NOT have is the arrogant assumption that we must be saved, that we cannot lose our salvation and that God has no power to judge us, regardless of our sin. That is a European fabrication. Of course, we do not and cannot believe in that.
 
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The first and third quote express hope and the second and third quote reference God’s mercy. None of these are iron clad guarantees. And we are directed not to judge others. Using these as guidelines it is reasonable to pray for the best outcome.

Patrick
AMDG
 
cornelius-ve said:
With these quotes from the Catholic funeral liturgy, could we not safely assume that the deceased person is in Heaven, and that the Christians assembled at the gathering with meet the departed in Heaven again?
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The prayers refer repeatedly to the theologival virtue of Hope, “by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit” (CCC 1817). “We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.” (CCC 1821).

We aren’t “assuming” anything. If you read carefully, the passages refer to a “sure and certain HOPE”, not a certainty that the person is going to Heaven and so are we. We are sincerely expressing our Hope that one day we will all be together in Heaven. Getting together to pray for the deceased at a Catholic funeral is a good step towards the goal.
 
Hello po18guy,

Thank you for your response. I assure you, I mean no ill will, and I genuinely want to understand why these words are written as they are. I doubt myself, which is why I want to hear other perspectives if anyone knows how to reconcile these words from the funeral liturgy with Catholic doctrine.

Indeed, Paul tells us we have a “sure hope” “if”, but can we safely assume that the deceased and those gathered to mourn have fulfilled that “if”, as the liturgy seems to assume?
 
cornelius-ve said:
Indeed, Paul tells us we have a “sure hope” “if”, but can we safely assume that the deceased and those gathered to mourn have fulfilled that “if”, as the liturgy seems to assume?
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A “sure HOPE” is still just hope. It is NOT certainty. If Paul had meant “Certainty” he would have said a certainty, or a sure knowledge, etc. Not “a sure HOPE”.

To have Hope and to trust in God’s mercy is the best we can do. And if we love God, that’s enough.
 
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Hello Tis_Bearself,

Doesn’t the first quote state " One day we shall joyfully greet him/her again when the love of Christ, which conquers all things, destroys even death itself."? This uses the simple future tense to indicate that it will happen, does it not?

The second quote does the same: " “Although this congregation will disperse in sorrow, the mercy of God will gather us together again in the joy of his kingdom."

Doesn’t the simple future tense indicate certainty? If I tell someone, “I will go to your wedding”, aren’t I indicating a relative certainty that I’ll be there, rather than “I hope I’ll go to your wedding”?

Would anyone know if this possibly a translation error into English?
 
cornelius-ve said:
Doesn’t the simple future tense indicate certainty? If I tell someone, “I will go to your wedding”, aren’t I indicating a relative certainty that I’ll be there, rather than “I hope I’ll go to your wedding”?
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“Thank you for the invitation to your wedding. I accept. I will go to your wedding, unless it happens that I get hit by a truck on my way there, or I am prevented for any other reason, or your fiance leaves you standing at the altar, or your wedding is cancelled for any other reason.”

I most certainly hope I will be there, but I cannot assume with certainty so.
 
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You’re cherry-picking words out of the whole context, which I believe someone earlier in the thread told you that you should not do.

The first quote contains the discussion of “Strengthen our HOPE” just before it goes into the sentence you said. Both sentences should be read together in context. You don’t pull out one sentence, start interpreting it in a vacuum and claim you caught the Church in a mistake. That’s very shortsighted and is an approach usually used by sola scriptura Protestants and people looking to “get something” on the Church rather than truly understand.

The second quote refers to the “mercy of God” which as Patrick explained to you already is not a sure thing, but it is one in which we trust. Trust does not mean it’s going to happen just the way we’re thinking. Trust means that we trust in God to do the right thing here.

The purpose of a funeral is to express our hope in Jesus Christ and our trust in God’s mercy in the context of the deceased leaving their earthly life, and also to comfort the mourners by assuring them that they should have hope and that God is merciful. The funeral liturgy is not meant to be a cut-and-dried theology textbook recitation of what the Church believes about death. Many people are already worried enough about the fate of their deceased loved one, or themselves, without the Church using the funeral liturgy to make a speech about how we shouldn’t forget that we or our loved one might end up in Hell.

And no, it’s not a “translation error into English”. It’s a bit hard to take you seriously when you accuse a standard liturgy of having “translation errors” after 10 people have already given you good explanations that you seemingly just don’t want to accept.
 
cornelius-ve said:
Why do the quotes assume that the meeting at the final judgement will be joyful?
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We will be joyful to see them again. This doesn’t imply that we, or they, will attain to eternal life in heaven; just that we will be joyful to see them at the Final Judgment. No contradiction there.
 
Just to make sure that this topic doesn’t close, I did want to mention that I believe my questions are related to potential errors in translation. As a French and Spanish speaker, I looked over the funeral liturgies in French and Spanish and noticed that they were quite different from the English. I’ll have more to write on this topic when I get the chance to research more in depth.

I’m not a scholar of Latin, unfortunately, but Bishop Elliot of Melbourne wrote an insightful article about translation issues for the new Mass (post 1969) that have come up in the past: Why We Need the New Translation of the Mass

He didn’t cover specifically the funeral liturgy, but some others that might be related…
 
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Suggestion: Get an old Latin Missal and compare the Requiem Mass with the Mass of Christian Burial.
 
Again, just so this topic won’t close!

The French has many more options, curiously, and the Spanish is closer to the English but lends itself to a far more orthodox interpretation of the words.

Because the Spanish is more comparable, it might be good to take a look at a quick example:

English: "Before we go our separate ways, let us take leave of our brother/sister. May our farewell express our affection for him/her; may it ease our sadness and strengthen our hope. One day we shall joyfully greet him/her again when the love of Christ, which conquers all things, destroys even death itself. ”

Spanish: "Antes de separarnos, despidámonos de nuestro hermano, y que este adiós final sea signo de nuestro amor y de nuestro afecto, mitigue nuestro dolor y aliente nuestra esperanza. Esperamos que un día lo volveremos a encontrar con gozo en el Reino de Cristo; donde el amor que todo lo vence superará a la misma muerte. "

The Spanish’s direct translation into English: Before we separate, let us take leave of our brother/sister, and may this goodbye be a sign of our love and affection, mitigating our pain and encouraging us in hope. We hope that one day we will joyfully greet him/her in the Kingdom of Christ; where the love that conquers all things will conquer even death itself. "

As you can see, a person’s salvation is communicated more in the conditional sense in the Spanish compared to the English–more clearly communicating the idea that we cannot know that the person is saved.
 
cornelius-ve said:
As a French and Spanish speaker, I looked over the funeral liturgies in French and Spanish and noticed that they were quite different from the English
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Do share them, I don’t know Spanish, but I’d be interested in reading the French. Edit: I see you have shared the Spanish, what does the French say?
 
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The final meeting will be joyful because at teh end of the world all of the souls in Purgatory will go to Heaven.
 
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