Conversation with a Mormon

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dianaiad said:
Rebecca: you are a prime example of the sort of person that was meant when it was said 'they leave, but they don’t leave us alone."

You don’t see that your own bitterness is flavoring the stew here.
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Diana, I am a Catholic on a Catholic forum. I believe it would go more along the lines of Mormons can’t leave us alone.

I have my experiences. If you find them bitter, so be it.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Diana, I am a Catholic on a Catholic forum. I believe it would go more along the lines of Mormons can’t leave us alone.

I have my experiences. If you find them bitter, so be it.
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Rebecca, you are a Catholic on a "non-Catholic religions’ forum engaging mostly in threads about Mormonism.

Wanna try that again?
 
dianaiad said:
Care to give us a quote or two?

I’m very, very, VERY tired of the insults being thrown around here without any back up.

Yes, Hitler was, evidently, given a proxy baptism by a cousin or somebody. Personally, I don’t mind…it’s very much a ‘coals of fire’ sort of thing. However, a proxy baptism (that, quite frankly, cements his condemnation far more than it would ‘save’ him) is hardly on the same level as having been born, baptized and raised Catholic, is it–and never having been excommunicated?

In reality, Hitler was…whatever he thought his audience wanted him to be, whether that was Christian, or pagan, or atheist. You can find quotes from him that support pretty much anything–except, of course, LDS. 😉

However, his mother was a devout Catholic and she raised him that way. That, unfortunately, is historical fact. Again, sorry about that.
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Diana, who’s venturing into Godwin’s law now?

Perhaps I’ll roll out every criminal with a Mormon background. Gary Gilmore? Sorry, raised LDS. Mark Hoffman, sorry, same.

Hitler was about as Catholic as whyme. (not saying whyme is Hitler)

“The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth H_bener and the Mormons in the Third Reich” available for download (PDF) at Sunstone Magazine.
"In their eagerness to coexist with the [Nazi] government, American officials of the German Church resorted to public relation efforts . . . Probably the clearest example of this tendency is an article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled ‘In the Land of the Mormons.’ The article appeared in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ Der Volkische Beobachter dated April 14 1937. In the Editor’s Preface to the article, President Rees is called ‘the representative of the Church in Germany,’ who ‘paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship.’ Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race), and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, ‘Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere.’ But the significance of these linguistic gaffes is magnified by hindsight. More disturbing is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing ‘the practical realization of the German ideal: “the common good takes precedence over the individual good.”’ Rees concluded by assuring his readers that ‘Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action.’
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I suggest you read the whole article. It is short.
 
dianaiad said:
Rebecca, you are a Catholic on a "non-Catholic religions’ forum engaging mostly in threads about Mormonism.

Wanna try that again?
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Perhaps you are lost. The URL you type to get here is catholic.com. In case you didn’t realize it, this is a Catholic apologetic website. The entire site is about as Catholic as you can get.

You seem to be irritated that I engage in Mormon topics. Sorry, I’m not going anywhere.
 
Stephen168 said:
You’ll have to be more specific. Who is ‘we?’ In what ‘way do they have it now?’
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I dunno, you were pretty specific yourself. I was referring to your notion that if we had been around at the time of Christ, that we would have disappeared.

Actually, you are quite right. We WERE around at the time of Christ.

And we did. Disappear, that is. Something quite different took our place.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Perhaps you are lost. The URL you type to get here is catholic.com. In case you didn’t realize it, this is a Catholic apologetic website. The entire site is about as Catholic as you can get.

You seem to be irritated that I engage in Mormon topics. Sorry, I’m not going anywhere.
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"irritated?

That’s hardly the word, Rebecca.

But you will notice that I am nowhere else on this Catholic website. I am here in 'non-Catholic religions." period, a forum specifically designed for religions that are NOT Catholic. The moderators of this forum have set aside a specific place for the discussion of non-Catholic religions; a sort of ghetto, if you will…and invited us in as guests.

I behave as one. That is, I choose not to engage in Catholic forums that discuss only Catholicism, such as apologetics sites or fellowshipping sites, and you will notice that I am not proselyting on the MORMON threads, either. I am simply defending my beliefs against attacks upon it. If I were proselyting, I would be posting to other threads and forums.

But you choose to come to threads that discuss Mormonism. Your absolute right, and your choice. Your choices tell something about you…and if your choices say that you can’t leave your old religion alone, well then…what are you going to say about that? You can’t.

And you can’t seem to stop being insulting and disrespectful while you do so. If this is the way you behave towards your Mormon relatives and friends, I can understand why they would not, after awhile, be all that welcoming. People being people, it is difficult to be welcoming forever when one is treated as disdainfully as you seem to feel appropriate.

As I said; your absolute right and your choice. I am neither irritated nor pleased; I simply describe your behavior. If you don’t like the description, then change the behavior. If you like the behavior, then don’t object to the description.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Diana, who’s venturing into Godwin’s law now?

Perhaps I’ll roll out every criminal with a Mormon background. Gary Gilmore? Sorry, raised LDS. Mark Hoffman, sorry, same.
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That would be Jerusha, who, bless her heart, confirmed it by calling me a Nazi and claiming that Hitler was a jack-Mormon. (grin) I will admit, that was unique.

I know that Gary’s brother Mikhal was baptized, but I’m not sure Gary ever was. He certainly wasn’t raised in the belief system. That’s one of THE most dysfunctional families I have ever read about. However, (shrug) his mother was LDS, even if she never did go to church, so I’ll give you that one.

As for Mark Hoffman–you DO realize that I have already mentioned him myself, right?
RebeccaJ said:
Hitler was about as Catholic as whyme. (not saying whyme is Hitler)
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He was certainly at least as Catholic as
Gary Gilmore was a Mormon; more. At least Hitler was TAUGHT Catholicism, and actually attended Mass from time to time.
RebeccaJ said:
“The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth H_bener and the Mormons in the Third Reich” available for download (PDF) at Sunstone Magazine.

I suggest you read the whole article. It is short.
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dianaiad said:
I was referring to your notion that if we had been around at the time of Christ, that we would have disappeared.
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Oh, you mean how Mormons have it now. Yes, Mormonism has a history of conforming to the political will. So yes, if Joseph Smith invented his religion 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, they would have stayed Jewish and disappeared into history.
 
dianaiad said:
"irritated?

As I said; your absolute right and your choice. I am neither irritated nor pleased; I simply describe your behavior. If you don’t like the description, then change the behavior. If you like the behavior, then don’t object to the description.
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If you want to work on behavior, how about you work on your arrogant, self righteous, self.
 
Dianaiad,
the myth of “hitlers pope”, snore, now you’re the one arguing from a third grade protestant manual! Interesting how you forgot how to add that in 1944, the chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholocism and changed his name to Eugenio, the Christian name of Pope Pious XII in honor of him saving more jews than Schindler. Pious’ current admirers include chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog of Israel, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Israels first president Chaim Weizmann. In fact Rabbi David Dalin is advocating that Pious be honored w the title “Righteous Gentile”

Unless, of course, they were all in on it too.

But all that wouldn’t fit in the evil Catholic Church belief you so adhere to-regardless of the facts.
 
Thanks, friends, for taking over for me. I was just too wroth to contend with her. I’m glad we only have one like her here. The others are more rational.

Jack-Mormon, in my vocabulary specifically refers to those people like the Gilmore family. They drift out of the LDS church, carrying with them all the negative baggage of Mormon culture, including easy justification for murder. And this all refers to the original way in which the term was originally used, by Thomas Sharp.

ex-Mormon refers to those who leave, carrying with them all the POSITIVE baggage of Mormonism, realizing that the negatives far outweigh the positives.

[Juicy rant deleted]
 
And please don’t insult our intelligence (and disappoint us in yours) by stating mormonism existed 2000 years ago.

Seriously.
Oh, btw, it must have fallen into apostacy too, since it disappeared and all;)
 
Stephen168 said:
Oh, you mean how Mormons have it now. Yes, Mormonism has a history of conforming to the political will. So yes, if Joseph Smith invented his religion 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, they would have stayed Jewish and disappeared into history.
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A ‘history of conforming to political will.’

You mean…render unto Caeser that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s?"

Or telling slaves that they should not rebel against their masters, but should serve willingly and well?

Like that?

We understand quite well that there is nothing that we can do that would cause people like you to approve of us. If we (for instance) kept polygamy or continued to withhold the priesthood from blacks of African descent, then we would be criticized for being sinners and bigots. However, if we give up the one and extend the priesthood to the other, why then it is because we are 'conforming to political will," and are then subject to criticism for being hypocritical.

since there is no way to win with you, I guess we should continue to do what we think is right, whether you like it or not…or even IF you like it.

Now me? I know that it takes courage to go against the will of the government, the majority opinion or the will of one’s enemy.

It takes considerably more courage, I think, as well as considerably more humility, to do the right thing when it IS the ‘will of the government, the majority opinion or the will of one’s enemy.’ Especially if doing the right thing means that your enemy gets to gloat and think he won something.

I think…it is well that we think of the opinions of those like you as completely irrelevant; since the only opinion that really counts, eternally, is not…yours.
 
sweetnay said:
Dianaiad,
the myth of “hitlers pope”, snore, now you’re the one arguing from a third grade protestant manual! Interesting how you forgot how to add that in 1944, the chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholocism and changed his name to Eugenio, the Christian name of Pope Pious XII in honor of him saving more jews than Schindler. Pious’ current admirers include chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog of Israel, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Israels first president Chaim Weizmann. In fact Rabbi David Dalin is advocating that Pious be honored w the title “Righteous Gentile”

Unless, of course, they were all in on it too.

But all that wouldn’t fit in the evil Catholic Church belief you so adhere to-regardless of the facts.
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Did I say 'Hitler’s Pope?"

Nope. I mentioned two historically accurate events; the concordat of 1933 and the letter of congratulations sent in 1939. Are you going to pretend that neither existed?

The point is, the Catholics attempted to work WITH the Reich for many years before it was finally brought home to them what it was like–and you will notice, if you would actually READ, that I did mention that the Catholics DID wake up. They did save many people–but they came late to the party. The ovens were in full fire before they did. It took that to make people understand the evil they were dealing with. Before that, I don’t suppose the Reich was any worse than many other governments…including Catholic run governments. You have to admit that most governments run under Catholic rule were not kind to the Jews.

My point is pretty simple: you can’t point fingers at any other religion (except the Jehovah’s Witnesses’) for attempting to get along during that time without acknowledging the FACT that the Catholics did, too.

So here it is, folks; even though I disagree with the Jehovah’s Witnesses on just about everything doctrinally and culturally, they are the ONLY religion I will accept criticism from in regard to anything we did, or did not do, with Hitler and the Third Reich. The Catholics have no legs to stand on here, with anybody…

And unless someone starts getting holier than thou with ME, I have no right to criticize anybody else, either. NOBODY understood the depth of evil the world was dealing with at that time. Nobody–except perhaps the victims in the concentration camps–and even they didn’t understand the totality of it until the survivors started putting information together.
 
Thank you , Rebecca. I did not have full access to that article before. It certainly explains the ambivalencies in LDS doctrine that permitted a great injustice to Huebener, in that he did not enjoy the support of his ward in his effort, and was therefore arrested and executed. 😦 Doubtless, he would, if he were living in today’s USA, he would have ended up “apostasizing”. A very tragic hero of WWII Germany.
 
That article alone could be enough to get them to start ex’ing people like Diana, if only they had enough b----- to do it.
 
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