Conversation with a Mormon

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

What about the apostles and prophets that needed to be an acting presence in the church “till we all come in the unity of the faith,… to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”? (It hasn’t yet happened.)

Are you serious? What do you think Jesus was doing here on earth? You think he was here to tell us that a prophet who will have the rest of the truth, will be here in 1800 years, until then wing it?..What don’t you get? Beware of your blindness! This earth is only for a short time; you’re not worried in the least bit that you may be in the wrong about your beliefs? You know you see the truth! You are, consciously or subconsciously, trying to falsify everything Christ taught! He was here building his body. His body can not be disemboweled!!! Not now, not never!

What about Ephesians 1 verses as follows:
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

Ephesians emphasize the unity in the church of Christ that has come about for both Jews and Gentiles within God’s household.

In answer to your question, I would have read the Bible, trusted that I needed to ask in prayer for the “spirit of wisdom and revelation”, and do that very thing. Joseph Smith did that. I have done that. Millions have done that. The answer comes by the “spirit of wisdom and revelation” to those who ask “in faith, nothing wavering.” (James 1:6)

Maybe you are not taking the signs God is giving you at this very moment. The only thing left for God to do is come down here and tell you that you are being misguided. Sometimes it is very hard to accept the truth. Remember, “The truth was crucified” for that very reason. People were scared of it because it went against what they had been practicing for so long. Anything that goes beyond our comfort zone, is going to be scary of course! But, if you seriously think you are in the truth now, I know God is a loving God, and he would never foresake you because you were misguided. But, if you do see the truth, and are turning a blind eye to it, than beware of what God says will happen to people who dare not follow “the word” he sent to guide us!
Matthew 24
11 Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; 12 and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Perseveres to the end will be saved…the end of what?

 

[ParkerD]

Are you serious? What do you think Jesus was doing here on earth? You think he was here to tell us that a prophet who will have the rest of the truth, will be here in 1800 years, until then wing it?..What don’t you get? Beware of your blindness! This earth is only for a short time; you’re not worried in the least bit that you may be in the wrong about your beliefs? You know you see the truth! You are, consciously or subconsciously, trying to falsify everything Christ taught! He was here building his body. His body can not be disemboweled!!! Not now, not never!

Ephesians emphasize the unity in the church of Christ that has come about for both Jews and Gentiles within God’s household.

Maybe you are not taking the signs God is giving you at this very moment. The only thing left for God to do is come down here and tell you that you are being misguided. Sometimes it is very hard to accept the truth. Remember, “The truth was crucified” for that very reason. People were scared of it because it went against what they had been practicing for so long. Anything that goes beyond our comfort zone, is going to be scary of course! But, if you seriously think you are in the truth now, I know God is a loving God, and he would never foresake you because you were misguided. But, if you do see the truth, and are turning a blind eye to it, than beware of what God says will happen to people who dare not follow “the word” he sent to guide us!
Matthew 24
11 Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; 12 and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
Perseveres to the end will be saved…the end of what?

Lamb of God Girly,
I suppose you think I am deceived even though I have a full knowledge of how the spirit of revelation works, what Elijah was talking about when he described the “still small voice”, what led Moses to say “Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets…”, what led the Apostle John to write, “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” I have not one iota of doubt about it.

But anyone in the world who has a pre-conceived agenda when praying about such things, and who is thus satisfied with what they have, will certainly not be dissuaded by any impression they have which they associate with the Spirit of Truth. Jesus could well have said, “Ask for what you want, and God will give it to you.”

So if God has given you what you want, then who am I to dissuade you from being as happy as you can with what you have? I’m tremendously happy, fulfilled, renewed in the spirit daily, with the gifts of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit spoken of by Paul manifest abundantly in my life and the lives of those around me.

God’s plan encompasses all people all over the world from all ages of time. See 1 Peter to read about how Christ liberated those “imprisoned” in the spirit from the time of the flood. He cares about all of those souls as well as all who have ever lived. I imagine that He is grateful you have found the truths you have found that guide your life. May you be blessed abundantly in living by those truths.

 

[h2001st]

I want to thank you Jerusa for bring to the attention of so many people just how significant The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is in the religion discussion. I think we get more interest because of you and others who who sling mud at us than by all the polite and responsible posters put together. I know I get much more interest when I respond to the nasty people politley than I do responding to the polite people. You do us a great service and I want to publicly thank you.

As my 2nd post, I’m amazed at how ignorant and intolerant some of the responses are against non-Catholics… we don’t all think like this…

JL- I look forward to your contributions!

 

[JohnVIII]

According to St. Paul, God gave us the Church so that we may know with certainty the truths of the faith. This is by no means the only reason for the existence of the Church, but it is a central reason.
"Christ was directing the faithful to obey the Church that he established and that we can be confident about doing so because the true Church to which Jesus was leading us would never steer us away from God.

So now that we know that the Mormon Church has always taught us the truth, then we must now believe what the prophet Brigham Young taught about who God is. We must believe that Adam is God the Father and is married to Eve, one of His wives, who gave birth to all the spirit children to be sent to live in bodies on planet Earth. These spirit children would, of course, include Jesus as well as His spirit-brother Lucifer. Is this the “truth” that the Mormon Church restored?

I once spoke, face to face, with Mormon Apostle Mark E. Peterson, who told me that the prophet Brigham Young did teach all of this (and even excommunicated those who didn’t believe him). Mark E. Peterson also told me that I can believe in Brigham Young’s Adam-God Doctrine if I wanted to, but that I can not teach it to anyone or else I would be excommunicated.

So before you tell us that the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic have completely fallen away from the truth, the Mormon Church needs to get it’s truth strait. Who is God the Father? Is he Adam? Is he Elohiem? Does he have a body of Flesh and bones as the Doctrine and Covenents say, of is he only a body of spirit as the Book of Commandments say? How did the virgin birth occur? The Prophet Brigham Young said it happen the same way any other birth happened, namely by sexual relations between Adam and Mary! But the Mormon Church doesn’t teach that today, instead the Mormon Church teaches that it happened by relations between Elohiem and Mary!

You should read the book “Divergent Paths of the Restoration”. You will see a long list of break-off churches that all believe in the Book of Mormon. They all claim priesthood authority, but deny that authority to be anywhere else. They all have different ideas about who God really is. And some practice polygamy and some reject the practice. - If there is a complete apostasy somewhere it would make much more sense to conclude that it has happened among those who believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God then to believe that it happened between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches, who only disagree over one single word (filioque) in our confession of Faith!

 

[ParkerD]

John VIII from CO,
The quote you had attributed to me was from “Lamb of Godly Girl”, a faithful Catholic.

One would expect that there would be a great number of break-off splinter groups from the LDS church, since a lot of people want to think that they are smarter or more spiritual than anyone else including a church leader.

You can believe what you want and say what you want or teach what you want in your own church. As I said in an earlier post, the only LDS doctrine that should be called “doctrine” can be found in either the standard works (with more than one point of reference) or in the agreed-upon written words of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Any quote attributed to Brigham Young alone is not only not doctrine, it was his opinion and he often spoke without giving a lot of thought to what he was saying. You have wasted a great deal of time if you have given yourself over to trying to make sense or seriously study the words attributed to him on the subjects you mentioned. But if you wanted a straw man to tear down so you could feel good about your own path, then you found one I suppose… Have at it.

 

[LDSGuy]

agreed. Especially when much has been written about limbo, and yet it isn’t Catholic doctrine. Anyone can say anything, including prophets, but that doesn’t mean they are speaking doctrine. Just as when the Pope is speaking, he isn’t always infallible, except in certain situations, when certain criteria are met.

 

[LDSGuy]

You should read the book “Divergent Paths of the Restoration”. You will see a long list of break-off churches that all believe in the Book of Mormon. They all claim priesthood authority, but deny that authority to be anywhere else. They all have different ideas about who God really is. And some practice polygamy and some reject the practice. - If there is a complete apostasy somewhere it would make much more sense to conclude that it has happened among those who believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God then to believe that it happened between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches, who only disagree over one single word (filioque) in our confession of Faith!

Anyone can claim anything. There are many churches that broke off from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Even the Orthodox Church believes that the Catholic Church broke off from it. Your logic isn’t making any sense. Just because various groups claim to use the Book of Mormon doesn’t make them all true, just as various groups use the Bible alone and yet come to differing conclusions. Also, are you seriously claiming that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches “only” disagree over the filioque?

 

[reff]

Let me get this straight: you admit to your history and claim to have learned from your errors, and this learning from those errors makes everything just peachy now.

Even though those errors resulted, quite literally, in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people; deaths that were quite often intentionally horrific.

But it’s OK now, because you admit that you did it, and have learned from it.

But the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though it has done nothing to any where near the level that the Catholics have, are (insert any one of the very insulting and derogatory names you have used) because of the things that we used to do (like polygamy) but that we no longer do.

I think that’s a fairly accurate description of your position, is it not?

Wanna think about that a little bit?

For goodness sakes dianaiad, the poster never said everything is just peachy.

 

[reff]

agreed. Especially when much has been written about limbo, and yet it isn’t Catholic doctrine. Anyone can say anything, including prophets, but that doesn’t mean they are speaking doctrine. Just as when the Pope is speaking, he isn’t always infallible, except in certain situations, when certain criteria are met.

I agree with you on this one. You don’t know how many times I was told by seminary teachers that God had a physical relationship with Mary to conceive Jesus, or that God was previously a man, but it was only the teachers’ speculation or theory. Just like the theory of Limbo in the early Church.

 

[Stephen168]

As I said in an earlier post, the only LDS doctrine that should be called “doctrine” can be found in either the standard works (with more than one point of reference) or in the agreed-upon written words of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

Is this definition in the standard works?

 

[RebeccaJ]

agreed. Especially when much has been written about limbo, and yet it isn’t Catholic doctrine. Anyone can say anything, including prophets, but that doesn’t mean they are speaking doctrine. Just as when the Pope is speaking, he isn’t always infallible, except in certain situations, when certain criteria are met.

If this comparison is going to be the LDS answer, I think you need to consider how these were speculations at all.

God has not revealed the specifics of Salvation pertaining to unbaptized innocents. Limbo is a conclusion based on what God has revealed. Therefore, it is doctrinally correct.

Are the LDS “speculations” doctrinally correct? How were these conclusions arrived at?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Anyone can claim anything.

Of course they can. Such as the claims of JS. Anyone.

There are many churches that broke off from the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Even the Orthodox Church believes that the Catholic Church broke off from it.

Both Orthodox and Catholic see each other in schism. We recognize that each Church is valid. We recognize the Sacraments of each Church as valid. In Mormon terms, we recognize each other’s priesthood authority as valid. (The Sacrament of Holy Orders.)

Your logic isn’t making any sense. Just because various groups claim to use the Book of Mormon doesn’t make them all true, just as various groups use the Bible alone and yet come to differing conclusions.

Yes, just as various Reformation or Restoration groups make all kinds of claims. Doesn’t make them true.

Also, are you seriously claiming that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches “only” disagree over the filioque?

I think you can read a little further up and see what Jarek posted abouted the schism, and what the issues are. They are real. And they are serious. It occurred beginning with a disagreement of the filioque, add in human stuborness and ego, and the two bishops excommunicated eacth other.

The Orthodox churches do not recognize papal infallibilty, which goes hand in hand with their stance on the filioque and anything else they disagree on.

At any rate, comparing the schism between East and West is an invalid comparison to any Mormon splinter group. There exists no splinter group that recognizes the priesthood authority of any other. There exists no splinter group tht recognizs the other each as a valid church.

To make this comparison shows ignorance.

 

[ParkerD]

Is this definition in the standard works?

Stephen,
Speaking of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the Savior told a group of Nephites and Lamanites in ancient America (see 3 Nephi 21):

4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

Section 1 of the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the standard works, contains the promise:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

The prophecies, the promises, the commandments, and the covenants of the gospel would be the doctrine.

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen,
Speaking of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the Savior told a group of Nephites and Lamanites in ancient America (see 3 Nephi 21):

4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

Section 1 of the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the standard works, contains the promise:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

The prophecies, the promises, the commandments, and the covenants of the gospel would be the doctrine.

So your prophet does not prophesies because only prophecies in the standard works can ever be doctrine.

 

[ParkerD]

Stephen,
If you’re a Bible student, you would be familiar with Revelation 19:10, which says,
“And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

A prophet doesn’t have to give the world “prophecy” to be a prophet. They give the world revealed knowledge and counsel, consistent with what has already been given in the Holy Scriptures.

The LDS have the “Proclamation on the Family” that reflects the “united voice” of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles.

We also have from 1978 a revelation that reflected the united voice of that group then living, that provided a change in policy (not new doctrine) that implemented the timing of existing doctrine from Genesis 22 and Abraham 2 that through Abraham’s seed
16 "By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;…
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Abraham 2 from the Pearl of Great Price also says of Abraham,
11 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.

 

[Stephen168]

A prophet doesn’t have to give the world “prophecy” to be a prophet. They give the world revealed knowledge and counsel, consistent with what has already been given in the Holy Scriptures.

Ok, so no prophecy from the prophet. What is revealed knowledge? And when is it revealed?

 

[LDSGuy]

Ok, so no prophecy from the prophet. What is revealed knowledge?

No he didn’t say that. He said that a prophet does not have to give the world prophecy to still be a prophet.

 

[Stephen168]

No he didn’t say that. He said that a prophet does not have to give the world prophecy to still be a prophet.

What is the difference between prophecy and doctrine?

 

[RebeccaJ]

No he didn’t say that. He said that a prophet does not have to give the world prophecy to still be a prophet.

That’s like saying, a writer does not have to write to be called a writer.

 

[ParkerD]

What is the difference between prophecy and doctrine?

Stephen,
Doctrine is “a body of principles or a system of beliefs”. The use of the word doctrine in religion implies that the people following the doctrine embrace the beliefs with all their heart, make covenants pertaining to those beliefs, and live by those covenants. The covenant making energizes their ability to live by the beliefs, and to strengthen one another as well as their children to be able to live by them also.

Prophecy is, according to Peter (2 Peter 1:21), “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” Peter also taught that “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (v. 20)