Conversation with a Mormon

[sweetnay]

ParkerD, you presuppose what JSmith said is true. There’s no way myself or any Christian would come away from those passages thinking that we would ever attain godhood. Unless–of course, you read into them the heresies espoused by Mormonism.

As I"m sure you already know, the Bible is a compellation of books, all different writing styles and genres–some even differ within the same book itself. I’m sure you would understand this as you, or at least your church, doesn’t take John 6 “for what he says” or you would believe in the Real Presence.

A Christian would most likely take these versus as analogous hyperbole written to Jews and Gentiles of that era. The Jewish audience they were written for would certainly understand these to mean great things were to come for them living with God and that “eye has not seen” the glories that await us. They would certainly find what you claim them to be as heretical as they are monotheistic and the belief in polytheism or the plurality of gods would be blasphemous!

Again, as I mentioned earlier, the Bible must be ready contextually and as a whole, OT in light of the NT, and most especially in light of the the verses posted by DClarke. Otherwise, this leaves the door open for any heresy–most especially a fictional one created in 1830.

I pray that you put your feelings aside, examine the facts, and come to know the real Jesus…

 

[dianaiad]

First time I have posted but I find this interesting
I see President Spencer Kimball in the Official Declaration -2 in my Doctrine and Covenants book extended the Priesthood to all worthy members “without regard for race or color” I remember that on the news and thought it was convenient but a day late and a dollar short. I do not believe in theological racism. I believe this makes Spencer Kimball and authority in the LDS church. Spencer Kimball in an address to Institute of Religion students, cited in Doctrines of Gospel Student Manual, 29 stated, “Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and God,” He continued, “You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people.”
I think it takes quite an ego to believe that you personally can become a God. I also believe it is against all logic and my heart. God is the first cause, all knowing, infinite, omnipresent Everything started with God. Before creation there was only God. Everything after the first cause, God, is a mere creature of God and not God. There can only be one first cause. Anything after the first cause may be a superior being than myself but not God. I will not worship a superior being. I see people who are superior to me every day. There are Angels who are obviously superior. But they are not God. My heart will only allow me to worship the one true God, the first cause who always exists. Yahweh
If the LDS church does not teach that they can become Gods I should like to know and only from the horses mouth. LDS memebers only. I have always tried to ask just Mormons about their religion and like Catholics I often get conflicting responses. That is more human error than church error. That is why I think it was good for the prior writer to ask for sources. I ask for civility in responses and have been suprised by some caustic comments in this thread. I have always had pleasant conversations with Mormon missionaries and prefer to ask questions and answer questions when they are asked of me. I am happy just to have a conversation with someone excited about God outside of Catholicism. I find my inner spiritual peace in my prayer life, Mass and the eucharist.
God bless you all for caring about God.

It is interesting that you should criticize those who make caustic comments in a post that contains one.

I appreciate that you do not share our beliefs. Most people do not. However, I do not figure that only people with overweening egos could become Saints in the Catholic sense of the word, or could have any idea of what heaven will be like for them–or that (as some Christians believe) that they are headed for heaven no matter what they do. Their faith is their faith. It is true that some Calvinistic beliefs may prompt such feelings of superiority in those who don’t examine the foundations of their own faith closely, but other than that?

Not so much.

I have found that the thought that we might be God’s children, and be able to become heirs and joint-heirs with Christ, is an idea that fosters humility far more than it does ego. After all, if all of us have that opportunity (as we believe all of us do) then what is there to be egotistic over? That would be like feeling superior because I breathe the air two feet north of you. It makes no sense.

 

[ParkerD]

First time I have posted but I find this interesting
If the LDS church does not teach that they can become Gods I should like to know and only from the horses mouth. LDS memebers only. I have always tried to ask just Mormons about their religion and like Catholics I often get conflicting responses. That is more human error than church error. That is why I think it was good for the prior writer to ask for sources. I ask for civility in responses and have been suprised by some caustic comments in this thread. I have always had pleasant conversations with Mormon missionaries and prefer to ask questions and answer questions when they are asked of me. I am happy just to have a conversation with someone excited about God outside of Catholicism. I find my inner spiritual peace in my prayer life, Mass and the eucharist.
God bless you all for caring about God.

Banarick,
Thanks for your thoughts. Perhaps you have read what LDS Guy posted earlier on this subject. I am active LDS for over 50 years, and during that entire time I remember perhaps only a dozen times when the subject of humankind’s potential to “become a god” was discussed in a class setting. We just don’t “go there” very much, because it’s pointless, other than to acknowledge that Christ said the faithful who overcome will inherit all things and become “joint-heirs” with him. We don’t gloat over it, or feel egotistical about the idea of it at all. My usual thought is that the only reason that could appeal to me would be when I feel a tremendous outpouring of love and unselfishness for people, and think how it would be to have that kind of feeling all of the time. Call it agape, charity, or unconditional love–it is a wonderful feeling to have, and I’m grateful to even have had a glimpse of it deep inside occasionally in my life.

Elder Kimball was trying to get those youth to “reach for the stars” with yearning to live better lives and not to get caught up in a lot of the foolishness that goes on in the world. When Christ said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” He really meant it and meant it is possible (not for us in this life, but in the eternal world to come.)

I do feel love for all people all over the world, and wish we would all get along better. I also look forward to the day when we we no longer “see through a glass darkly” (Paul wrote that). Then we won’t have so many misgivings about people whose frame of reference we don’t personally understand.

I love the Bible. I love the literal words of it, as they are in the English King James, but I’m sure I would equally love the Hebrew or the Greek if I could read those languages. I have no problem believing the Bible exactly as it is written.

I am so glad you have inner spiritual peace. I feel that also, and am grateful for a wife and children who convey spiritual peace in their lives as well. We love reading the scriptures (including the Bible) together as a family. We do it often, but not often enough, but at least we have family prayer daily, and enjoy that, too.

May God bless you every day of your life, sincerely.

 

[jacobprixon]

I am a 25 year old Roman Catholic that was mormon for 24 years. My family became mormon when my Great-Great grandfather traveled to Utah with Brigham Young. I went to BYU and have studied the mormon faith extensively for 3 years. I had many questions that weren’t answered by the LDS Church like, The Plurality of Gods, Polygamy that exists in heaven, Race, the idea that the gospel (keys) left earth when Christ said he wouldn’t leave his church, and plenty more. When I went to the Catholic faith and studied the catholic teachings and the readings of the Early Church Fathers I knew that the priesthood and the keys where in-trusted within the Catholic Church. I have “Come Home” to the Catholic Church.

I urge others to explore and ask questions about their faith and not just follow along with what others say. There have been many times when at BYU religious professors would tell me “that is what it is” and I was expected to believe it. It’s important to always ask questions to further your understanding of your faith.

 

[LDSGuy]

I am a 25 year old Roman Catholic that was mormon for 24 years. My family became mormon when my Great-Great grandfather traveled to Utah with Brigham Young. I went to BYU and have studied the mormon faith extensively for 3 years. I had many questions that weren’t answered by the LDS Church like, The Plurality of Gods, Polygamy that exists in heaven, Race, the idea that the gospel (keys) left earth when Christ said he wouldn’t leave his church, and plenty more. When I went to the Catholic faith and studied the catholic teachings and the readings of the Early Church Fathers I knew that the priesthood and the keys where in-trusted within the Catholic Church. I have “Come Home” to the Catholic Church.

I urge others to explore and ask questions about their faith and not just follow along with what others say. There have been many times when at BYU religious professors would tell me “that is what it is” and I was expected to believe it. It’s important to always ask questions to further your understanding of your faith.

 

[kevangreen]

the problem is this great apostasy never occurred in the church, it occurred in the hearts of men , so yes there was a apostasy, but it occurred in the hearts of men not the church that Jesus left on earth. without this event the mormon church as well as most protestant churches are shown to be incorrect in there gospel which in reality is how Catholics look at it, i mean if Jesus were to walk into a mormon church of today i don’t think he would understand it LOL
The church that Jesus left us does not just just loose its power, if that were the case then Jesus was no prophet and we would be Jews.
it is hard to compare what you FEEL and what you believe to be the TRUTH to hard core science and history the stories just get blown away with the wind which holds more truth I believe.

 

[dianaiad]

the problem is this great apostasy never occurred in the church, it occurred in the hearts of men , so yes there was a apostasy, but it occurred in the hearts of men not the church that Jesus left on earth. without this event the mormon church as well as most protestant churches are shown to be incorrect in there gospel which in reality is how Catholics look at it, i mean if Jesus were to walk into a mormon church of today i don’t think he would understand it LOL
The church that Jesus left us does not just just loose its power, if that were the case then Jesus was no prophet and we would be Jews.
it is hard to compare what you FEEL and what you believe to be the TRUTH to hard core science and history the stories just get blown away with the wind which holds more truth I believe.

If the only thing you think can be ‘Truth’ is that which is proven by 'hard core science" then you might have a problem. Science doesn’t actually deal with the stuff of Truth, but of fact…and even then it doesn’t deal with what is, but only in what we perceive things to be. That perception changes. It wasn’t all THAT long ago that hard core science thought that illness was caused by ‘ill humours’ or that there weren’t any other planets in the universe…or that the Big Bang was a ludicrous idea (thus the name ‘Big Bang.’…that name was not given it by the folks that LIKED the idea, y’know.)

Our ideas of God are not proven by science; can’t be. They are not proven by history, either…and any idea that history can be placed in a factual sense along with science is naive at its very best. There are few greater Truths than this: “the winners write the history.” Everything we read or ‘know’ about history is seen through biased eyes, everything.

But religious truth? That can only be found through faith–or rather, faith can only be found through means other than science. If you want to call that "feelings,’ I suppose you can, but for me the witness of religious Truth through the power of the Holy Ghost is like ‘feelings’ the way an atomic explosion is akin to a firecracker. The similarities aren’t even superficial–except in the eyes of those who want to diminish it for their own reasons. Nobody who has actually FELT that witness will ever be able to dismiss it as ‘heartburn.’

 

[kevangreen]

it wasent so long ago that mormons practiced polygamy hardcore so if we want to dig up history then that would be a good place to start.
As for this feeling i had felt it to but that is only because at the time i was in depression and was looking for something to make me happy and another thing god dosent work by feelings the bible even says the heart is deceitful
and that is most likely the devil who IS of this world at work to make true follows of jesus fall to a mere cult.
if we went by feelings and what the heart says there would be alot more babies in this world LOL

 

[RebeccaJ]

Our ideas of God are not proven by science; can’t be. They are not proven by history, either…and any idea that history can be placed in a factual sense along with science is naive at its very best. There are few greater Truths than this: “the winners write the history.” Everything we read or ‘know’ about history is seen through biased eyes, everything.

But religious truth? That can only be found through faith–or rather, faith can only be found through means other than science. If you want to call that "feelings,’ I suppose you can, but for me the witness of religious Truth through the power of the Holy Ghost is like ‘feelings’ the way an atomic explosion is akin to a firecracker. The similarities aren’t even superficial–except in the eyes of those who want to diminish it for their own reasons. Nobody who has actually FELT that witness will ever be able to dismiss it as ‘heartburn.’

Faith and science are not at odds. This is something that Mormons will never be able to reconcile.

As to “winner” making history. Mormons just make it up, and call belief “history”. History is based on facts, not belief.

You believe there was an apostasy, therefore, it is a historical fact.

 

[ParkerD]

If the only thing you think can be ‘Truth’ is that which is proven by 'hard core science" then you might have a problem. Science doesn’t actually deal with the stuff of Truth, but of fact…and even then it doesn’t deal with what is, but only in what we perceive things to be. That perception changes. It wasn’t all THAT long ago that hard core science thought that illness was caused by ‘ill humours’ or that there weren’t any other planets in the universe…or that the Big Bang was a ludicrous idea (thus the name ‘Big Bang.’…that name was not given it by the folks that LIKED the idea, y’know.)

Our ideas of God are not proven by science; can’t be. They are not proven by history, either…and any idea that history can be placed in a factual sense along with science is naive at its very best. There are few greater Truths than this: “the winners write the history.” Everything we read or ‘know’ about history is seen through biased eyes, everything.

But religious truth? That can only be found through faith–or rather, faith can only be found through means other than science. If you want to call that "feelings,’ I suppose you can, but for me the witness of religious Truth through the power of the Holy Ghost is like ‘feelings’ the way an atomic explosion is akin to a firecracker. The similarities aren’t even superficial–except in the eyes of those who want to diminish it for their own reasons. Nobody who has actually FELT that witness will ever be able to dismiss it as ‘heartburn.’

Diana,
Agreed!
I love the concepts expressed in 1 Cor. 2:9-14. We can receive “spiritual discernment”, but not naturally. The natural man will consider the things of the Spirit as “foolishness,” moreso today than ever before.

 

[dianaiad]

it wasent so long ago that mormons practiced polygamy hardcore so if we want to dig up history then that would be a good place to start.

OK…was there a point to that?

As for this feeling i had felt it to but that is only because at the time i was in depression and was looking for something to make me happy and another thing god dosent work by feelings the bible even says the heart is deceitful
and that is most likely the devil who IS of this world at work to make true follows of jesus fall to a mere cult.
if we went by feelings and what the heart says there would be alot more babies in this world LOL

OK, and how DO you know that the bible is true?

 

[kevangreen]

seeing is believing not believing is seeing in history any LOL

 

[dianaiad]

Faith and science are not at odds. This is something that Mormons will never be able to reconcile.

Actually, we have considerably fewer problems with that than most.

As to “winner” making history. Mormons just make it up, and call belief “history”. History is based on facts, not belief.

You believe there was an apostasy, therefore, it is a historical fact.

We believe that there was an apostasy, therefore, we believe that there was an apostasy. The history of the Catholic church was written by the Catholics; if we interpret that a little differently than you do, we still haven’t changed what you guys wrote down.

 

[kevangreen]

unfortunately for you mormons the Christians wrote history the Christians who followed jesus
are catholic only due to the protestant reformation in 1500’s and 1600’s without them mormon church would certainly not be around

 

[kevangreen]

and mormons totally interpret it different almost completely destroying the original message of jesus

 

[ParkerD]

unfortunately for you mormons the Christians wrote history the Christians who followed jesus
are catholic only due to the protestant reformation in 1500’s and 1600’s without them mormon church would certainly not be around

Kevan,
Very good point. The Book of Mormon says as much.
If it weren’t for William Tyndale and John Wycliffe, the Mormon Church probably wouldn’t be around either. Thank goodness they wanted their people to be able to read the Bible in English, even if it cost them their life!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Actually, we have considerably fewer problems with that than most.

We believe that there was an apostasy, therefore, we believe that there was an apostasy. The history of the Catholic church was written by the Catholics; if we interpret that a little differently than you do, we still haven’t changed what you guys wrote down.

So you’re going with Protestant propaganda. Nifty.

 

[kevangreen]

you see there is a belief that when you change the bible from latin to english you loose the burning feeling about god that mormons often describe. Possible a reason catholic dont go to church as much after Vatican 2
as for those two they are just the same as traitors because the church is not what you FEEL is rite it is what jesus left us if that were the case mormons would be rite cause mormons feel what they do is rite kinds like how the germans believed there were rite in the holocaust

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kevan,
Very good point. The Book of Mormon says as much.
If it weren’t for William Tyndale and John Wycliffe, the Mormon Church probably wouldn’t be around either. Thank goodness they wanted their people to be able to read the Bible in English, even if it cost them their life!

…speaking of…

 

[dianaiad]

Faith and science are not at odds. This is something that Mormons will never be able to reconcile.

<snip…

One word.

Gallileo.

Mormons have never so persecuted scientists as a result of their scientific endeavors and/or discoveries. Mormons have, in fact, been at the forefront of scientific discovery for quite some time, from Henry Eyring (who was the first to apply quantum mechanics to chemistry) to Harvey Fletcher (who invented the hearing aid), to H. Tracy Hall, who was the first to produce synthetic diamonds, to physicists like Normon Tolk, Joseph Merrill and Steve Jones. We have TV invented by Philo Farnsworth, the electric traffic light by Lester Ware, to the “father of video games” Nolan Bushnell (he invented “Pong”…but he is an ‘inactive’ Mormon, so he might not count, thank heaven…)

Lessee…the electric guitar; Alvino rey, the repeating rifle (Browning) the flatbed scanner, the artificial heart (Robert Jarvik)

Who discovered the mechanism by which ATP (remember high school biology?) works? Paul Boyer. Mormon…and won a Nobel prize for doing so.

Now…these people are Mormons…but are they ‘good’ Mormons, or are they simply nominal Mormons, or cultural ones?

Well…a man named Wooton did, not one, but four studies examining whether LDS scientists actually believed in the religion they claimed. In all four studies, it turns out that between 91 and 96% of LDS scientists…men and women who are well respected in their individual fields, published in peer reviewed journals and holding solid and prestigious positions in universities all over…believe that Joseph Smith was inspired of God in the formation of the church, and had strong personal testimonies of the truth of the gospel of Christ.

The reason he did four studies?

Because similar studies of scientists who were raised in other faiths all showed that ***less ***than 40% of THEM found no problems in reconciling their professed religion and the science they devoted their working lives to.

Including, Rebecca, the Catholics.

So I’ll leave it to you whether scientists in general have problems reconciling religion and science, or rather non-scientists in general can…

but Mormons?

We don’t have any problems at all with it. At least, our scientists don’t…and given that Russell M. Nelson (world recognized physician) Richard G. Scott (worked with General Hyman Rickover directing the development of nuclear fuel) Henry Eyring (mentioned earlier; physicist) are in the First Presidency and/or in the Quorum of the Twelve, (the rest of them are businessmen, lawyers, judges, teachers…and one airline pilot…) I hardly think that science and religion have a huge problem clashing in the LDS worldview.

(shrug) But please, don’t let mere fact get in the way of already cemented opinions.