Conversion experience

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ZenFred

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Hello everyone,

If any of you have seen my past posts I have waffled a lot of my faith and keep changing my religious identity.

Today I need to make a decision and take that step of faith. I have faith that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I’ve been reading The Jesuit Guide to (almost) Everything by Fr James Martin. First off, he explains truths about spirituality I’ve struggled on my own to learn the hard way. He puts it more clearly and with greater insight. The theology I thought was so original wasn’t.
Then today I was in the grocery store thinking about the Jesuit practice of seeing and finding God everywhere. In this spirit, I started up a conversation with an older man. He said he wasn’t feeling well. I told him I’d pray for him and I went to my car to pray. Mid prayer, the Jesus prayer came out of my lips (I spent some time going thru a desert father phase). Then when I got home I saw the sun coming thru the trees making them glow and the birds flying. I was mad! I can’t understand how Jesus could be the messiah or even if there going to be a messiah, let alone Jesus as God. A trinity doesn’t make any sense to me at all. The church has to be wrong and I’m clever and wise enough to see it. But yet Christ Jesus is Lord. I can’t explain it. Just like I can’t explain why sun hitting leaves makes them glow and makes them beautiful. I give up. I’m learning to trust that intuitive knowledge, that gnosis from God or maybe simpler put just to listen when God speaks to me. Even if it doesn’t make sense. Also I know my belief will come and go likely with each new book I pick up. But I don’t want to waffle anymore. I choose faith.

Lord Jesus Christ,
Son of God,
Have mercy on me,
Forgive my arrogance
And thinking I understand you or anything,
I don’t know who or how or why you are.
But You are.
And I will follow you,
Because you and the Father speak with one voice
One love
And I know the voice of my God
And trust His promises.

-Fred
 
Be careful with Father James Martin while some of his prayer stuff and spiritual stuff isn’t bad there’s a lot of his stuff you want to avoid especially if you’re sincerely considering Catholicism.
 
adamhovey1988 said:
Be careful with Father James Martin while some of his prayer stuff and spiritual stuff isn’t bad there’s a lot of his stuff you want to avoid especially if you’re sincerely considering Catholicism.
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Could you elaborate? It would helpful to know in what ways he’s seen as contraversial.

I’m not really considering Catholicism. I go to an episcopal church with my family. I’m considering looking deeper into Jesuit and Ignatian spirituality. I’m also interested in Hebrew Catholics as I’m currently practicing some orthodox Jewish practices (but I don’t have a Jewish community or subscribe to Rabbinical Judaism per se, especially now that I’m “Christian” again).

It does seem Martin is very inclusive. He even says non Christians can practice and modify the Ignatian exercises.
 
Tomorrow is the Feast Day of the founder of the Jesuits: Ignatius Loyola.
Read some sites about his life and ministry! 😉
 
My best advice is to go before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Spend time with Him and express your doubts to Him. If He is Lord; if He is truly present in the Eucharist, you must know this. It is often not primarily an intellectual equation, but spiritual.
 
ZenFred said:
H. A trinity doesn’t make any sense to me at all…
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The Trinity is a great mystery, beyond our comprehension. For me, I just think of it as three aspects of God – the Creator, the Word (and Savior) and the Teacher/Comforter.
I choose faith.
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Congratulations. That is a step you will not regret.
God bless.

.
 
If you have the time and resources, I would urge you to make an Ignatian retreat. You don’t have to be Catholic to make one, and it is a very powerful experience. Not only would you have a spiritual director to guide you into how to listen for God’s voice, but you will have the resources to learn about God and yourself. Even an eight day retreat would be immensely beneficial.

As far as Father Martin’s books, there is nothing wrong with his early ones. I think Adam is trying to caution you because many Catholics feel that Father Martin has really started to cross the line with his views on homosexuality and inclusion in the Church. But if his book has been of great help to you in understanding some of the faith that you didn’t before, than that’s awesome. Ignatius spirituality has a unique quality all its own and can really inspire people.
 
Viki63: “I just think of it as three aspects…” I’m not Catholic so I can’t say for sure but you may wish to speak to your priest or spiritual director if you have one about this viewpoint.
I believe this is the view Hindus have of all those deities they venerate or pray to. Each is viewed as an aspect of God the creator of which they believe there is one(I think). These folks are viewed by many to be pagan and idol worshippers partly for this reason.
If the Trinity really were simply different aspects of one God then I and probably many others wouldn’t have a hard time with that belief but I think that view is the beginning of a slippery slope away from Christian teachings. Be well-May you have good fortune on your journey.
 
My first instinct was to leave this alone, and I probably should. But I’ll jump in and make some observations.

I have been studying conversions (from anything to anything), and I have come to the conclusion that there are basically three reasons people convert: 1) a search for authority–they want someone to tell them what to do 2) an emotional response of some kind–to a dream, a coincidence, a “sign,” etc. 3) logic.

It seems to me you are solidly in the #2 category. I personally have never gone through a conversion process, but to me logic would be the way to approach it. The biggest leap, I would think, would be to acknowledge there is some power (God, if you like) that created the universe. Once you have done that, then logic would tell you that this power would obviously contact mankind directly to reveal his existence (not just through nature, which can be explained away, but actual communication). All sorts of religions claim to have contact with this power. It seems to me to be a relatively easy process to decide, logically, which revelation is true and which is false. That there will be some truth in most (if not all) religions is a given. So you have to sift out the truth from the untruth.

As for the Trinity, I personally don’t understand objections to it. You are making the huge assumption that you can understand the nature of God. Do you also understand quantum physics? String theory? All the intricacies of genetics? No? And yet the concept of God, who created all this, would be literally infinitely more difficult to understand. And you think you should be able to understand it? I think the Greeks had a word for this: hubris. Have a look at Isaiah: “My ways are not your ways…” and of course there is ample evidence in the New Testament that there is, in fact, a Trinity.

I also don’t understand the need to be a sort of spiritual guru. Why isn’t it enough to live a good life? Has there ever been a human being who achieved the sort of spiritual understanding you seem to require? Why are you torturing yourself with a search for the incomprehensible and the unachievable?
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
My first instinct was to leave this alone, and I probably should. But I’ll jump in and make some observations.

I have been studying conversions (from anything to anything), and I have come to the conclusion that there are basically three reasons people convert: 1) a search for authority–they want someone to tell them what to do 2) an emotional response of some kind–to a dream, a coincidence, a “sign,” etc. 3) logic.

It seems to me you are solidly in the #2 category. I personally have never gone through a conversion process, but to me logic would be the way to approach it. The biggest leap, I would think, would be to acknowledge there is some power (God, if you like) that created the universe. Once you have done that, then logic would tell you that this power would obviously contact mankind directly to reveal his existence (not just through nature, which can be explained away, but actual communication). All sorts of religions claim to have contact with this power. It seems to me to be a relatively easy process to decide, logically, which revelation is true and which is false. That there will be some truth in most (if not all) religions is a given. So you have to sift out the truth from the untruth.

As for the Trinity, I personally don’t understand objections to it. You are making the huge assumption that you can understand the nature of God. Do you also understand quantum physics? String theory? All the intricacies of genetics? No? And yet the concept of God, who created all this, would be literally infinitely more difficult to understand. And you think you should be able to understand it? I think the Greeks had a word for this: hubris. Have a look at Isaiah: “My ways are not your ways…” and of course there is ample evidence in the New Testament that there is, in fact, a Trinity.

I also don’t understand the need to be a sort of spiritual guru. Why isn’t it enough to live a good life? Has there ever been a human being who achieved the sort of spiritual understanding you seem to require? Why are you torturing yourself with a search for the incomprehensible and the unachievable?
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I’m very glad you did decide to jump in! There’s a lot there.
First off when you say you are studying conversions what do you mean exactly, just looking into it or doing scholarly research?
I’ve unfortunately have had multiple conversion the most significant being Christian to Buddhism to Judiasm/noahide to now. It can be rather traumatic.

I think you’re right about three main reasons for conversion. I might add #1 could be just as much be about wanting to belong in a community. For me, in the past it’s been mostly searching using reason but that always fallen short. I’ve been learning to listen more closely to God and receive the gifts of His knowledge and wisdom.

You bring up a good point. Why do I feel the need to so frantically search for truth? Why can’t I just settle for being a good Christian or Jew since I know these paths are good ones? The answer is that I have the gift of spiritual hunger, I’m not satisfied with surface or second hand knowledge. A mystic is like a fish swimming in the ocean that says it’s thirsty. It doesn’t mean I’m wiser or holier, just hungrier.
 
ZenFred said:
I’m very glad you did decide to jump in! There’s a lot there.
First off when you say you are studying conversions what do you mean exactly, just looking into it or doing scholarly research?
I’ve unfortunately have had multiple conversion the most significant being Christian to Buddhism to Judiasm/noahide to now. It can be rather traumatic.

I think you’re right about three main reasons for conversion. I might add #1 could be just as much be about wanting to belong in a community. For me, in the past it’s been mostly searching using reason but that always fallen short. I’ve been learning to listen more closely to God and receive the gifts of His knowledge and wisdom.

You bring up a good point. Why do I feel the need to so frantically search for truth? Why can’t I just settle for being a good Christian or Jew since I know these paths are good ones? The answer is that I have the gift of spiritual hunger, I’m not satisfied with surface or second hand knowledge. A mystic is like a fish swimming in the ocean that says it’s thirsty. It doesn’t mean I’m wiser or holier, just hungrier.
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I went to an RCIA class a couple years ago and individually interviewed the 20+ people who were converting. NONE of them were particularly interested in logic or reason. Most had some emotional reason (which I mistrust) and a few just wanted someone to order them around–some people join the army for the same reason. Incomprehensible to me, but I know some people do it. I’ve also read various books and articles about the subject.

Mysticism exists, and certainly Buddhists have learned real techniques for bringing themselves into some sort of mystical state, but of course Catholics believe that any mystical experience is a gift from God, it’s not something you can just “do” on your own. But even then, think of all the saints and obviously holy people who never had a mystical experience. Mother Theresa springs to mind. It seems to me (= my personal opinion) that it’s better to just be an ethical person in your everyday activities. That’s hard enough nowadays. And certainly there is no shortage of problems in the world you could devote yourself to if you wanted to spend your life doing good. It seems to me that God would value that above a basically self-centered life devoted to contemplation. Perhaps harsh, but just giving my personal opinion.

Judaism is certainly a valid religion, but which type of Judaism? “Judaism” runs a vast continuum from extremely orthodox on one end to cultural Judaism + atheism on the other, with a lot of choices in between.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
I went to an RCIA class a couple years ago and individually interviewed the 20+ people who were converting. NONE of them were particularly interested in logic or reason. Most had some emotional reason (which I mistrust) and a few just wanted someone to order them around–some people join the army for the same reason. Incomprehensible to me, but I know some people do it. I’ve also read various books and articles about the subject.

Mysticism exists, and certainly Buddhists have learned real techniques for bringing themselves into some sort of mystical state, but of course Catholics believe that any mystical experience is a gift from God, it’s not something you can just “do” on your own. But even then, think of all the saints and obviously holy people who never had a mystical experience. Mother Theresa springs to mind. It seems to me (= my personal opinion) that it’s better to just be an ethical person in your everyday activities. That’s hard enough nowadays. And certainly there is no shortage of problems in the world you could devote yourself to if you wanted to spend your life doing good. It seems to me that God would value that above a basically self-centered life devoted to contemplation. Perhaps harsh, but just giving my personal opinion.

Judaism is certainly a valid religion, but which type of Judaism? “Judaism” runs a vast continuum from extremely orthodox on one end to cultural Judaism + atheism on the other, with a lot of choices in between.
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I agree with you that mysticism shouldn’t be primarily something you do. Then it’s magic or yet another ego advancement scheme, like you said being an aspiring guru. I didnt really choose mysticism, God called and chose me. I don’t really think you want a defense of mysticism. A lot of people don’t understand the draw to contemplative life especially these days. You’re right you can be just as holy and virtuous without it.

I think you’re also right that very few people make religious decisions based on reason. Even atheists tend to have a strong, emotional reaction to religion that outweighs the reason of their arguments. Agnostics are perhaps the most logical. I don’t want to be so haughty to say my religious search was based on reason alone. Of course I felt drawn to the peace of meditation or the poetry of the Torah and the exotic-ness of Jewish prayer. For me, though however it was really a search for Truth. I found myself unable to trust the faith I grew up in and needed an objective view in order to make a truly independent and directly experience or logically based decision. This is impossible and I became very frustrated. I sensed traces of God in each faith but the conflicting doctrines and cultural inventions kept me from experiencing Him fully. But then I started learning to listen and to have faith in the intuitive truth that was a gift from God, not a product of my own reasoning. My searching for God on my terms failed, but God revealed Himself all along the way.

I studied orthodox Hassidic Judaism. I still practice many of the observances.

I don’t know if I’m reading a combative tone in your posts that isn’t there. I’m not really looking to argue nor feel the need to fully explain myself. I know that God is good and has revealed Himself thru the church. I know that you are “right.” For me it’s not about being right anymore.
 
ZenFred said:
I don’t know if I’m reading a combative tone in your posts that isn’t there. I’m not really looking to argue nor feel the need to fully explain myself. I know that God is good and has revealed Himself thru the church. I know that you are “right.” For me it’s not about being right anymore.
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I’m not trying to be combative. Just giving my opinions. When it comes down to it, in a sense each person has his own religion. Best of luck.
 
If its meant to be God will guide your heart to Him. There is a lot to take in but have faith in the Lord. It seems to me that your heart is in the right place but your mind causes you doubt. It is okay. We are human, we doubt things all the time. Even with the gifts God gave me (visions) I still sometimes doubt but He always pulls me back from the darkness and into the light. Continue to pray to Him and he will lead you on the correct path. Stay humble friend.
 
ZenFred said:
For me it’s not about being right anymore.
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Well it should be. Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
That Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
 
johnnyc176 said:
Well it should be. Jesus said I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
That Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
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Thanks. I was feeling pretty frustrated when I write this. Our finite capacity experience God’s infinite grace and love is frustrating and humbling. I think you are right, we shouldn’t give up or fall into realitivism or dispair.

Instead we should remember in faith that God is real and in fact the source of all reality and truth. Our theology should be one of listening.
 
adamhovey1988 said:
Be careful with Father James Martin while some of his prayer stuff and spiritual stuff isn’t bad there’s a lot of his stuff you want to avoid especially if you’re sincerely considering Catholicism.
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I’m sorry to hear you say this. I know people who find an open heart in Fr Martin’s writings, and have considered returning to Catholicism because of him. He is one of your strongest spiritual writers today.
 
I think we search for God because He is searching for us.

I’m a convert… I read the post on the first page with reasons people gave why they converted… The reason I converted was in one way reason and in one way not. Catholicism is reasonable so there will be reason. But conversions happen from grace. What happened is I read a truth of the faith (I guess that’s the reason part), and God gave me a moment of light where I somehow realized what the truth was. Thats how it started but I still wasn’t too open after that… because I really wanted to stay in my Protestant faith (i was Protestant in university) and now God was showing me to go somewhere else. In the next while, it was a combination of God’s grace and later reading and researching.

Simply research is not enough because we need grace to realize the truth of what we read. I’m not talking about emotion. I’m talking about learning to listen to God, surrender our will… This can be painful. I was very attached to my own understanding and at times my conversion was difficult. It wasn’t from me, it all came from God’s Mercy.

Earlier I also had a time when I decided that I believe in Christ’s Divinity. I did not grow up with any religion. When I was a child the only time I heard about Christ, without any background about who He is, (I did not even know church existed…this was right after the fall of the Soviet union in Russia), - it affected me greatly. I didn’t even know why. And it was like my secret that I wouldn’t tell anyone. So later, I still liked Christianity, though at one point I was a relativist and thought Christianity is too simple, and at another (dark) time I was interested in pagan religions.

At one point I had a bit of a crisis and didn’t feel sure if God existed. I decided to believe in Christianity when I read CS Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”, because it made sense to me why its this and not another religion. So it was logic in a way, but not only logic, because as a child I sought God because I felt I needed Him. That helped me to open up to Him. He uses suffering too.

I hope its ok if I shared some of my story… I just recommend prayer with research, and why not spend some time with Jesus and pray to Him to show you who He is? Don’t try to make yourself feel anything. The answer could come then or later. Do you know about Eucharistic Adoration? Jesus is physically present in Catholic churches in the Eucharist. Sometimes the priest puts the Host in a golden container where people can see the Host. Even though you don’t see Jesus, He is there, because in the Eucharist only the appearance of bread remains. There is no more bread in reality, but the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ. People can come and pray before Him. Do you live near a Catholic church that has this? Or even if you go into a Catholic church. Jesus is truly present there in the Eucharist, which is kept in the church always. Personally I often seem to receive more graces when I pray there before Him. Why not come and just simply BE with Jesus for a while, and talk to Him about everything? 🙂

God bless you!
 
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