Conversion to Mormonism?

[Sabacthani]

(three beings: Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and one finger on the one hand (in one person).

Really? I thought that Catholicism professed “One God in THREE PERSONS.”

Which is correct, the Nicene Creed, or Porknpie’s version of Cecilia’s version of the Trinity?

 

[Sabacthani]

You get what you pay for. If you want a priest who has studied the Bible, theology and counseling and has time to actually care for his flock, then you need to pay him or otherwise provide for his temporal needs. In the LDS church, the local lay leaders have little to know training in their scriptures or theology. They receive no training on counseling or pastoral care. They are simply given a book of instruction and can talk to someone higher up who also has had no training. LDS bishops also have day jobs so they don’t have much time to dedicate to their flocks. Their families often suffer from not seeing dad all that much.

I understand the sentiment and it sounds good but it doesn’t really work all that well in reality.

Thank you for a respectful and intelligent counterpoint, iepuras. I think you’re quite mistaken on the “no training” part; I received considerable training myself, even though I never advanced to a pastoral calling (thank heavens!). Good point on the families getting limited by time. But many families also benefit from the example of spirituality and service.

From what I’ve seen, mormon families of church leaders often suffer because the priesthood leader takes on ADDITIONAL service projects or interests beyond the calling and the career.

 

[iepuras]

Thank you for a respectful and intelligent counterpoint, iepuras. I think you’re quite mistaken on the “no training” part; I received considerable training myself, even though I never advanced to a pastoral calling (thank heavens!). Good point on the families getting limited by time. But many families also benefit from the example of spirituality and service.

From what I’ve seen, mormon families of church leaders often suffer because the priesthood leader takes on ADDITIONAL service projects or interests beyond the calling and the career.

My father has held numerous leadership positions, including bishop. He didn’t get much in the way of training and he was never taught any counseling skills. That would take longer than what a 2 hour priesthood leadership meeting would provide. I also spent time serving in the Relief Society and the most training I ever got was being given a short instruction manual and a phone number for my counterpart at the stake level. We were then left to our own devices.

I was already an adult when my dad was a bishop so it wasn’t a problem for us. Only my youngest sister was in the house.

I don’t think zaffiroborant was being impolite or uncharitable. It is true that the higher ups in LDS leadership (70 and apostles) get paid pretty well. She is correct that there is nothing special about the fact that local LDS leadership are unpaid. The LDS church itself often touts the fact that their local clergy are not paid and that the missionaries pay to serve missions with the underlying assumption that it is somehow preferable to having educated/trained, paid clergy.

Married clergy is a separate issue from paid clergy. The Catholic Church does have married clergy with the diaconate, Eastern Catholic priests and Roman Catholic priests who were clergy in another church and converted. The rule is that they must be married prior to receiving Holy Orders. If they become widowed, they are not allowed to remarry.

 

[iepuras]

When I was teaching (especially Gospel Doctrine, which is a class for Mormons, while Gospel Essentials is a course on the basics for potential converts or those new to the LDS faith) some of my brighter students asked difficult questions that I didn’t know the answer to. Like when I was a missionary, I would say “I don’t know, but I’ll look it up for next time”. Then I would go home and start digging.

One book that I had that I forgot to mention before was “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce R. McConkey, who got to be an apostle the old-fashioned way - he married the prophet David O. McKay’s daughter.

Mormon Doctrine was at that time the equivalent of the Catechism of the Catholic Church because it was the only comprehensive compendium of LDS teachings. In the 1970s and 1980s if there was a doctrinal dispute, you would take Mormon Doctrine off the shelf, look up the doctrine and that was the end of the debate. Of course, these days the LDS have thrown McConkey and Mormon Doctrine under the bus because Mormon Doctrine (even the sanitized 2nd edition that I have) contains all the racism, sexism, virulent anti-Catholicism and other unpopular stuff that the LDS have recently tried to distance themselves from.

Mormon Doctrine, with its many references to the standard works, The History of the Church and the Journal of Discourses (similar to the way the CCC is chock full of references to the Bible, the Early Church Fathers, church councils and papal bulls and encyclicals throughout the centuries), was always a good place to start. Then we would follow to the source documents for the full context. I still do the same when I study the CCC.

These days, whenever I look at Mormon Doctrine, I am truly repulsed and wonder how I could ever have believed any of that nonsense.

Anyway, that was what started my journey.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Thanks for sharing your story, Paul. I cannot tell you how much you and all the other ex-Mormon Catholics have helped me on my journey.

I was relieved when I finally realized Joseph Smith was a false prophet. A very heavy burden was lifted. I was BIC and tried so hard to make sense of it all and please my parents. It was ultimately polygamy and polyandry that filled my shelf and finally caused it to collapse. I didn’t know about the polyandry and when I was finally unafraid to research how polygamy was really practiced and how both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young stole the wives of other men, I knew that they were false prophets. God would never command a prophet to steal another man’s wife. My husband never believed and he was waiting patiently for me.

Unfortunately, I have had all kinds of issues with my very Mormon family, particularly my parents. I didn’t think through what could happen when I told them I was leaving, but I soon realized that I was willing to give up my family completely to protect my children from the teachings of a false prophet and to come to know the true God.

 

[Sabacthani]

My father has held numerous leadership positions, including bishop. He didn’t get much in the way of training and he was never taught any counseling skills. That would take longer than what a 2 hour priesthood leadership meeting would provide.

Of course it would. I had considerably more training than that, in anticipation of possible future leadership roles which I never received. But I can respect your view that even what is provided, is not enough.

Married clergy is a separate issue from paid clergy. The Catholic Church does have married clergy with the diaconate,

It might theoretically be a separate issue, but you just relinked them with the diaconate, which, like I said, is both unpaid and marriage is allowed.

Again, I appreciate your replying to my points with specifics. It’s always nice to talk to someone who has something to say.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Yes, that was a blessing. I have studied several languages, but never to the extent that I was immersed in Mandarin.

The great thing about learning another language is that it provides you with a new way to think. You know that after the age of 5 or so, we stop thinking in pictures and start thinking in words (because it is so much more economical). So the more words we know (and the more ways of expressing those words) the greater our power to think and conceptualize. Often, the way another language phrases something can give insight into the true meaning of the word, just by seeing it in a different way.

One of my favorite examples from Mandarin is the word for “repent”. It is pronounced like “Hway Guy”. The Hway character means “turn around”, and the “Guy” character means to change. So “repent” in Mandarin means “turn around and change”.

Cool, huh?

It was also a great blessing that I studied German in High School. Many of the sounds in Mandarin that are most difficult for Americans to pronounce also occur in German. An example is the “tz” sound. It is like the double Z in “pizza”. My German teacher, when teaching us the word “zehn” which means ten (pronounced “tzayn”, would have us say “pizza, pizhen, zehn”. I learned to make that sound. So when I was learning Mandarin, I had a huge advantage over the missionaries who had no exposure to German and many of whom could never quite get those sounds right.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

That is part of the reason why I love languages, because you learn so much from knowing multiple languages that most people would never realize. Even a simple example like Matthew 16:18, the “Peter the Rock” verse. If you read it in Italian, it makes more sense, because it says* “Tu sei Pietro, e su questa pietra edificherò la mia chiesa…”*

The word play becomes immediately clear.

Amazing how the pronunciation in German assisted you in learning Mandarin. I would have never expected something like that.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I didn’t want to be a member of a church that would give me the priesthood. Don’t get me wrong, I like the whole unpaid lay priesthood thing, and I hope you Catholics catch onto it. But the push on ordaining all males to the priesthood seems a bit much.

But ultimately, if you believe that the LDS is the true Church, then wouldn’t you accept that directive? Or did you come to disbelieve that through their priesthood?

 

[Sabacthani]

But ultimately, if you believe that the LDS is the true Church, then wouldn’t you accept that directive? Or did you come to disbelieve that through their priesthood?

From a mormon perspective, better to remove yourself from the covenant than remain in it and not live up to it.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

From a mormon perspective, better to remove yourself from the covenant than remain in it and not live up to it.

That doesn’t make much sense. Wouldn’t it be better to work through the difficulties within the Church? If you really believe that the Church is true and that it has the fullness of the restored gospel, then shouldn’t you accept its teaching?

 

[Stephen168]

I didn’t want to be a member of a church that would give me the priesthood. Don’t get me wrong, I like the whole unpaid lay priesthood thing, and I hope you Catholics catch onto it. But the push on ordaining all males to the priesthood seems a bit much.
zaffiroborant;12019812:

I don’t see what is so special about an unpaid clergy, nor are all lds clergy unpaid, just the lowly ones.

I refuse

to engage in a prideful and therefore sinful contest of whose church or former church is better.

You get what you pay for. If you want a priest who has studied the Bible, theology and counseling and has time to actually care for his flock, then you need to pay him or otherwise provide for his temporal needs.

Thank you for a respectful and intelligent counterpoint, iepuras.

Technically iepura made a point. To make a counterpoint, you would have had to make a point, which you refused to do.

 

[debbie_h]

I don’t see what is so special about an unpaid clergy, nor are all lds clergy unpaid, just the lowly ones.

Growing up LDS we were taught & reminded many times that all callings within the LDS was unpaid. There was certainly no mention of anyone higher up being paid for ‘doing the Lords work’ so that is what I believed.
I was taught that this is one of the many signs of the LDS being the only true church on earth.

 

[TexanKnight]

I refuse to engage in a prideful and therefore sinful contest of whose church or former church is better. It’s not polite and it’s not charitable either.

I know many wonderful Catholic priests and nuns and I think it’s a tragedy that your lower clerical orders are prohibited marriage and family. I don’t mean that makes your church bad. I mean that it hurts you, because your best and most spiritual people are banned from reproducing and raising their own children. I’m happy to see the Catholic Church making more use of their deacons, and hope that there will be more part time lay clergy who have jobs and families.

huh? Do you even know the Catholic Church? It is not a prohibition…it is a CHOICE. They KNOW the rules when they CHOOSE. That is like you saying it is a shame that interstate truck drivers have to drive from state to state.

 

[iepuras]

Of course it would. I had considerably more training than that, in anticipation of possible future leadership roles which I never received. But I can respect your view that even what is provided, is not enough.

What do you consider to be considerable training? Is it the equivalent of a bachelor’s degree in theology?

It might theoretically be a separate issue, but you just relinked them with the diaconate, which, like I said, is both unpaid and marriage is allowed.

Again, I appreciate your replying to my points with specifics. It’s always nice to talk to someone who has something to say.

I am curious as to why you consider the diaconate to be lay and not professional? They attend seminary. If they have a job other than being a deacon, they are not supposed to be paid but many dioceses pay them anyway.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Paul & Texan,
You both served missions, what was the convert retention rates? Did you meet anyone who had maybe shaken your faith up a little (or a lot)? Thinking back to my own ward I can’t say that many new converts lasted very long. While I was part of a large ward, it was mostly BIC families. I had one new convert say to me during YSA Sunday school that he only got baptised & was only there for his girlfriend & that he didn’t care for the YSA activities (he left as soon as the relationship ended after a few months).

Thanks for asking, Debbie.

In Taiwan the convert retention rate was about 5% when I was there (1977 - 1979). I was assigned to one town where even the president of the branch was inactive. Literally no one showed up on Sunday. I made it my mission to re-activate the president and his counselors. It didn’t work. I ended up as acting branch president while I was there. I baptized 8 people on my mission. I never tried to keep up a correspondence or relationship with any of them, so I don’t know if any of them stayed active. Statistically I would guess not.

By the way, although (then apostle) Ezra Taft Benson told us when he came to speak at a mission conference that we were not there to convert the Buddhists, we were there to convert the Christians, all of the 8 people I baptized were Buddhists. I see now that is is weird that he didn’t want us to lead the pagans to Christ, he wanted us to lead the Christians to Joseph Smith.

The only people I met there who made me doubt my faith a bit were Catholics - a priest and a young couple we tracted out. The priest was a wonderful man from England who had been at the same parish for over 30 years. His Mandarin and his Taiwanese were impeccable and he discussed religion and philosophy with me very openly and without trying to tear down my faith. I found myself attracted to Catholicism a bit. My companion was very uncomfortable around this Godly man. When I asked him why, he could not really explain it; he just said the spirit was confirming to him that Catholicism was satanic. He and I must have been feeling two very different spirits.

The young couple on the other hand, especially the wife, were real on-fire apologists and tore apart every doctrine of Mormonism with a superb knowledge of the bible and history, but with kindness and good humor. They kept feeding us while they explained why our religion was not even remotely Christian. They got me doubting, and I guess that doubt grew in the back of my mind for the next 8 years until I left the church. They also made me realize that I and my fellow Mormons knew nothing about the bible. I studied the bible much more after that, which contributed to my eventually realizing that the LDS church could not be “true”.

In fact, I was impressed with all of the Catholics I met there. They all had nice clean homes and well-dressed and -mannered children and seemed generally quite educated, cultured, prosperous and happy. They also seemed more open-minded than most and willing to discuss most anything so long as we were polite. They were comfortable in their own skins (and faith) unlike nearly all of the Mormons I knew then and have known since.

They all made me sorry for the typical LDS anti-Catholic feelings and prejudices I had picked up during my short time in the church. I liked and admired these people very much.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre1]

^^ The textbook example of the Lord working in mysterious ways.

Did you ever feel, Texan, that perhaps God allowed your stay in Mormonism so that once you converted to Catholicism, you’d be armed with arguments to defend it from LDS claims?

I certainly feel that way.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre1]

I didn’t want to be a member of a church that would give me the priesthood. Don’t get me wrong, I like the whole unpaid lay priesthood thing, and I hope you Catholics catch onto it. But the push on ordaining all males to the priesthood seems a bit much.

Is that like “I wouldn’t want to join a club that would have me as a member”?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre1]

I was reading a little bit about the third century saint, St Cecilia, and was impressed how she died as a great witness to the Christian faith, including her belief in the Trinity. For refusing to marry, she was sentence to be executed by beheading, but three strokes of the sword failed to do so but left her mortally wounded (the first two strokes inflicted little damage). She died three days later professing her belief in the Trinity by displaying three fingers on one hand (three beings: Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and one finger on the one hand (in one person). The outline of her body is shown in the image below.

No where in the early church do we read of an LDS type belief of people ascending to be God’s and becoming God’s of their own planets. Rather what we read of is an understanding of the Trinity, three persons in one being.

What a wonderful witness she was to the Christian faith passed on by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants.

PnP

Beautiful! Thank you for posting it.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I refuse to engage in a prideful and therefore sinful contest of whose church or former church is better. It’s not polite and it’s not charitable either.

I know many wonderful Catholic priests and nuns and I think it’s a tragedy that your lower clerical orders are prohibited marriage and family. I don’t mean that makes your church bad. I mean that it hurts you, because your best and most spiritual people are banned from reproducing and raising their own children. I’m happy to see the Catholic Church making more use of their deacons, and hope that there will be more part time lay clergy who have jobs and families.

I think it’s prideful to get offended when someone suggests that Catholicism might learn something useful from the Mormons. I’m willing to bet that a number of good Catholics will agree with me there.

Hmmm, yup. whyme.

 

[TexanKnight]

Hmmm, yup. whyme.

I thought the posting was familiar…so i went back and read Whyme’s posts.

wow

 

[PaulDupre1]

You get what you pay for. If you want a priest who has studied the Bible, theology and counseling and has time to actually care for his flock, then you need to pay him or otherwise provide for his temporal needs. In the LDS church, the local lay leaders have little to know training in their scriptures or theology. They receive no training on counseling or pastoral care. They are simply given a book of instruction and can talk to someone higher up who also has had no training. LDS bishops also have day jobs so they don’t have much time to dedicate to their flocks. Their families often suffer from not seeing dad all that much.

I understand the sentiment and it sounds good but it doesn’t really work all that well in reality.

Yes, there is a derisive term in the LDS church: BK (bishop’s kid). It denotes a young person who has rebelled against the benign neglect (s)he has suffered because his/her father was always at church rather than at home. BKs are assumed to be wild and promiscuous. I don’t know if that is consistently true, but the only bishop’s daughter I knew well was quite bitter that her father preferred the church over his wife and daughters.

Yet another good argument for priestly celibacy.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)