Conversion to Mormonism?

[KathleenGee]

Sabacthani,

I had to chuckle about your response … the words of Jesus…well, some how…I picked up you are a Mormon…I have read some of their texts and the names they have used.

But I believe you are truly seeking the One True Lord.

Keep seeking Him and keep asking questions and ponder. Seek the use of reason.

There is so much more to life than procreating when you live it for the sake of the Kingdom.

The Church is full of history of those who laid down their lives for Jesus. Last night I was watching the Pope’s meetings with religious leaders in the Holy Land and EWTN was visiting with a Franciscan priest who was providing music lessons to the children there, who really have no future.

He was speaking about the Franciscan presence there in the Holy Land and how over time 800 Franciscans had been killed for inviting Muslims to know Christ. They simply went out to Muslims and invited them to know Christ and they were immediately killed.

For those who give up all for the sake of the kingdom expand it among us through the laying down of their lives.

In ancient Christian times during the plagues, the bishops exhorted the Christians to go out to help the pagans who were dying in the streets and this in turn brought about conversions. What is missing many times in our materialistic, sex oriented culture is the sacrifice of self in ordinary life.

 

[Sabacthani]

My comment was to inform you that if I say something, it is true. Nothing more. Relax

You are never mistaken, then?

“I spent 6 years active.”

Awesome. Where did you serve?

Panama- Ft. Clayton, Honduras- JTF Bravo, Ft. Sill, Oklahoma, Ft. Hood, Texas. I am considered a disabled vet as I injured my knee in Panama that has resulted in 6 surgeries so far and screws in my leg. Which is nothing compared to those who have lost more…

Indeed. Thank you for your service.

I’ve never had the chance to talk to someone who served in the Panama action. Would love to hear your stories.

 

[Sabacthani]

You should have more faith in God. it is a shame that you must believe that God had no other ideas but to make two people and sit around and hope they would disobey Him…

I don’t think that CS Lewis lacked faith in God. Did you read his Perelandra series?

God’s intent wasn’t to be disobeyed, but he may have intended them to partake of the fruit at a later time, without transgression but with the full understanding that they were undertaking a fall, allowing for death and reproduction. Because of the transgressive nature of the fall on this world, we have here the most wicked of the Creator’s world’s. And the only world that would crucify their God.

There’s a curious short story by Ray Bradbury, “The Man,” in his book "The Illustrated Man…

 

[TexanKnight]

You are never mistaken, then?

When I say things about me or my intentions? No.

Indeed. Thank you for your service.

I’ve never had the chance to talk to someone who served in the Panama action. Would love to hear your stories.

I loved my time there. It was right after Just Cause and there was a lot of folks who did not like us. We still had the Canal and the military installations. That is no longer true.

 

[TexanKnight]

I don’t think that CS Lewis lacked faith in God. Did you read his Perelandra series?

God’s intent wasn’t to be disobeyed, but he may have intended them to partake of the fruit at a later time, without transgression but with the full understanding that they were undertaking a fall, allowing for death and reproduction. Because of the transgressive nature of the fall on this world, we have here the most wicked of the Creator’s world’s. And the only world that would crucify their God.

There’s a curious short story by Ray Bradbury, “The Man,” in his book "The Illustrated Man…

perhaps. But the Mormons believe that it HAD to happen. That the only way we are all here is because they disobeyed. With that, my comment is spot-n.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

This is a teaching unique to the Book of Mormon. See 2 Nephi 2:19:

In other words, before the Fall of Man, there was no death and no births, the garden remained in the state it was when that God created it.

Right. But it doesn’t state that there would be no births. And in Genesis God specifically commands Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply.”

 

[Sabacthani]

perhaps. But the Mormons believe that it HAD to happen. That the only way we are all here is because they disobeyed. With that, my comment is spot-n.

It’s probably the predominant LDS interpretation, but not the only one. I remember this discussion in a number of BYU classes.

FabiusMaximus:

And in Genesis God specifically commands Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply.”

The way my BYU profs had it, on other worlds the first parents eventually came around to God and asked how to carry out God’s command, and that’s when God gave them consent to eat the fruit, with the understanding that suffering and death would come about as well.

It takes a while for the theology to catch up to the new scripture.

But it doesn’t state that there would be no births.

There are many sources that describe the same incident, and it’s common for some sources to describe details not present in other sources .

I loved my time there.

Was it Panama where you were wounded?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The way my BYU profs had it, on other worlds the first parents eventually came around to God and asked how to carry out God’s command, and that’s when God gave them consent to eat the fruit, with the understanding that suffering and death would come about as well.

It takes a while for the theology to catch up to the new scripture.

There are many sources that describe the same incident, and it’s common for some sources to describe details not present in other sources .
\

My issue is that this kind of interpretation doesn’t appear to be logical or correct on its face, so therefore a person must believe in the LDS Church to accept it, I (respectfully) don’t buy it. I think the scriptures seem clear… So now the discussion would theoretically shift from the interpretation of Genesis to whether Mormonism is true.

 

[Sabacthani]

My issue is that this kind of interpretation doesn’t appear to be logical or correct on its face, so therefore a person must believe in the LDS Church to accept it, I (respectfully) don’t buy it. I think the scriptures seem clear… So now the discussion would theoretically shift from the interpretation of Genesis to whether Mormonism is true.

Theoretically but in practice that would be proselytizing, and I’m not allowed to do that in this board. So I’m content to simply explaining what the church teaches, and what I believe. Sort out the doctrines from the rumors of doctrines.

 

[TexanKnight]

It’s probably the predominant LDS interpretation, but not the only one. I remember this discussion in a number of BYU classes.

Well, in my time at the MTC, and in my time as a missionary, and in my time as a member, that was the only interpretation I heard

Was it Panama where you were wounded?

it was in Panama my knee was injured

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a teaching unique to the Book of Mormon. See 2 Nephi 2:19:

In other words, before the Fall of Man, there was no death and no births, the garden remained in the state it was when that God created it.

No wonder Mormons are so confused.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t think that CS Lewis lacked faith in God. Did you read his Perelandra series?

God’s intent wasn’t to be disobeyed, but he may have intended them to partake of the fruit at a later time, without transgression but with the full understanding that they were undertaking a fall, allowing for death and reproduction. Because of the transgressive nature of the fall on this world, we have here the most wicked of the Creator’s world’s. And the only world that would crucify their God.

There’s a curious short story by Ray Bradbury, “The Man,” in his book "The Illustrated Man…

Why would you think God intended a fall?

Been a long time since I read “The Illustrated Man”, what are you alluding to? Bradbury’s “Dandelion Wine” is my favorite of his work.

 

[Sabacthani]

Why would you think God intended a fall?

Been a long time since I read “The Illustrated Man”, what are you alluding to? Bradbury’s “Dandelion Wine” is my favorite of his work.

Haven’t read DW. Illustrated Man was my favorite of his works. “The Man” is about an earth space-ship landing on a planet and being upset that no one’s paying attention to them. After asking questions, they find out that Christ has just visited.

 

[rmcmullan]

Right. But it doesn’t state that there would be no births. And in Genesis God specifically commands Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply.”

It does state there would be no more births. Take a look at the following paragraph:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

And it’s a consistent concept. But there were conflicting commandments that required a choice. They either had to obey the Word of God or exercise their free will and multiply. That’s why Mormons call it a transgression and not a (Original) sin, because there were consequences either way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Haven’t read DW. Illustrated Man was my favorite of his works. “The Man” is about an earth space-ship landing on a planet and being upset that no one’s paying attention to them. After asking questions, they find out that Christ has just visited.

Love it.

 

[Sabacthani]

It’s kind of cool that the text never names Him, referring to him as “the man” throughout.

 

[Telstar]

It does state there would be no more births. Take a look at the following paragraph:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

So, Mormons believe Adam & Eve would never have any joy in Paradise, because they had no misery, even though they were with God every day? And, that they would never do anything good, because they didn’t know about sin, even though they were with God, the *** very source of all goodness***?

That is completely inconceivable to the mind (or heart) of any Catholic that I know. It’s totally illogical. Even Spock would have to raise an eyebrow to that one. :ehh:

 

[Sabacthani]

I was not aware that Spock was Catholic.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

It does state there would be no more births. Take a look at the following paragraph:

And it’s a consistent concept. But there were conflicting commandments that required a choice. They either had to obey the Word of God or exercise their free will and multiply. That’s why Mormons call it a transgression and not a (Original) sin, because there were consequences either way.

Again, the very concept is illogical. If God wanted to drive us to take the fruit, then why were there consequences for that? Why wouldn’t God simply encourage us to eat the fruit if it was a positive outcome?

So Genesis commands us to multiply and fill the Earth, but apparently according to the Book of Mormon God needed us to sin first, which, as a consequence, kicked us out of the Garden, which was paradise.

 

[Sabacthani]

Again, the very concept is illogical. If God wanted to drive us to take the fruit, then why were there consequences for that? Why wouldn’t God simply encourage us to eat the fruit if it was a positive outcome?

So Genesis commands us to multiply and fill the Earth, but apparently according to the Book of Mormon God needed us to sin first, which, as a consequence, kicked us out of the Garden, which was paradise.

Transgression but not sin, there can be no sin without knowledge of good and evil.

Again, not sure if an actual transgression was necessary. It may have been that God would have in time explained the act and consequence that would bring about the mortality workshop.