Conversion to Mormonism?

[Stephen168]

You said JS, so I assume partly. But the BoM too?

I’m a cradle Catholic. When I was 12 (1968) I moved to a small town and asked a few classmates where the local Boy Scout troop was located. They invited me to theirs held at the Mormon Church. While attending for over 5 years, I learned about the Book of Mormon. Scientist were already saying the Book of Mormon story could not be true. If Joseph Smith lied about that, then why take anything he claimed to be true? It was this experience that inoculated me from ever taking Mormonism seriously.

 

[Porknpie]

Yes. For me, it’s just the opposite. I don’t care about the social aspects of a church. It’s the doctrine. My jaw sort of falls to the floor when you say you find the Catholic doctrine is more credible. Most of the ex’s here seemed to loose it after studying the history–is that the case or no? You said JS, so I assume partly. But the BoM too?

Where does the Book of Abraham stand in relation to the BoM? Do Mormons believe both are the Word of God?

PnP

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes. For me, it’s just the opposite. I don’t care about the social aspects of a church. It’s the doctrine. My jaw sort of falls to the floor when you say you find the Catholic doctrine is more credible. Most of the ex’s here seemed to loose it after studying the history–is that the case or no? You said JS, so I assume partly. But the BoM too?

I left because, in a nutshell, I didn’t believe what I was being taught. None of it, but it built over time, starting with being taught that dark skin was a curse from God, then onto the only role for women is wife/mother, LDS temple ideas never made any sense to me, I didn’t believe the world was going to end any day now, and the LDS God, I didn’t believe in at all.

I left for atheism. This was before the internet. I read one book on Mormonism after I left, specifically chosen from an outside view, and specifically chosen as a scholarly work. That’s the first time I had ever heard of a peep stone in a hat, and Smith’s arrests for “glass looking”. After being raised in a LDS environment where Smith was on a pedestal as a man near perfection, I was more than a little shocked.

When a family member, who was also ex-Mormon, went back to being a Mormon, I got on the internet for the first time to read about Mormonism. I thought I’d take another look and see if maybe I misunderstood what I had been taught.

Nope. It was worse than I thought when I left. Plus, things I had been taught as God’s Truth, were being denied by Mormons and called anti-Mormon lies.

So, the message was for me, I was lied to, only it wasn’t by anti-Mormons, it was by every teacher I ever had. All of them active, true believing Mormons.

I found no compelling reason to believe anything of Mormon claims. What is God’s Truth today is anti-Mormon lies tomorrow.

 

[iepuras]

Where does the Book of Abraham stand in relation to the BoM? Do Mormons believe both are the Word of God?

PnP

They are both canonized LDS scripture and are considered to be the word of God by Mormons.

 

[iepuras]

Yes. For me, it’s just the opposite. I don’t care about the social aspects of a church. It’s the doctrine. My jaw sort of falls to the floor when you say you find the Catholic doctrine is more credible. Most of the ex’s here seemed to loose it after studying the history–is that the case or no? You said JS, so I assume partly. But the BoM too?

Catholic doctrine is far more credible and has a solid philosophical foundation. When I was LDS, I thought that the Trinity and everything the Catholic Church taught (Mary, Saints, Purgatory, Original Sin, Real Presence in the Eucharist, etc) were ridiculous. That was because I didn’t actually know what the Catholic Church taught. I ridiculed the strawman of modalism rather than the actual Trinity. I had no idea for the Biblical basis for what seemed to be crazy beliefs. When I actually started reading the Bible with open eyes, reading the Catechism and other books and listening intently in RCIA, it all made sense. I saw the beautiful love story between God and man that is Catholicism.

When I determined that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, I had to reject everything that came from him. BOM, Plan of Salvation, everything, no matter how nice I thought it was. I left the LDS church over polyandry/wife stealing and exchanging eternal salvation for sex with a 14 year old girl. It was after that, I read all the “anti-Mormon” stuff about everything else. Zina Jacobs and Helen Mar Kimball were just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes. For me, it’s just the opposite. I don’t care about the social aspects of a church. It’s the doctrine. My jaw sort of falls to the floor when you say you find the Catholic doctrine is more credible. Most of the ex’s here seemed to loose it after studying the history–is that the case or no? You said JS, so I assume partly. But the BoM too?

Yes. As an attorney, the 9 versions of the First Vision are very problematic. The Book of Mormon, written from a language that has never existed in King James English by an American in the 1800s is problematic. The lack of any evidence of the Book of Mormon is problematic. The plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon AND in the temp,e ceremony is problematic. Sooo many failed prophesies.

You say you love the doctrine…but which? The original? what is was 50 eyas ago? What it is now? It constantly changes as evidence appears that makes old doctrine bad.

So much.

Then, on studying the Scriptures, I realized that for the LDS Church to be true, God had to be a liar, weak and cruel. And I could not accept that.

But the Catholic Church is ongoing. Started by Jesus and His Promises.

But, I loved being LDS

 

[PaulDupre1]

My jaw sort of falls to the floor when you say you find the Catholic doctrine is more credible.

I think that’s because your leaders tell you a caricature of Catholic beliefs. Probably the best example is the misrepresentation of the trinity as modalism. I have often heard Mormons laugh and say that Catholics believe Jesus prayed to Himself and other ridiculous things. There are many other LDS myths about the Catholic faith and most Mormons believe every one of them.

If I thought that Catholics believed those things (and for while, when I was LDS, I thought they did) then my jaw would fall to the floor, too.

BTW, why do your leaders find it necessary to poke fun at other religions, even in General Conference? They must think it is necessary in order to convince their flock that they are superior to all those silly and ignorant Christians. That’s the way it seemed to me when I was LDS.

I remember, when my family lived near Boston, sitting in a sacrament meeting where our area 70 was visiting and gave the main talk. He spent nearly his entire time misrepresenting and making fun of Catholic beliefs. My Catholic father, whom we were trying to convert at the time, was there because I had told him that the area 70, a real General Authority, would be speaking; so he was curious enough to attend. I was so embarrassed that this idiot was representing my religion to my dad.

In all my years as a Catholic, I have never heard any other religion even mentioned at church or in any church-related setting. Even when I went through RCIA with my adult son when he converted, there was never a mention of other religions. I guess to a Mormon that is unimaginable.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[rmcmullan]

I guess I’m hijacking the thread here but frankly, one of my sons (grown and married with two kids) is starting to go through the same thing as many of you have. He sounds exactly like you guys and is concerned about many of the same subjects that you’ve just now mentioned. But I still don’t understand it.

PaulDupre1: True, Catholics are very tolerant. I learned this on my mission, they never hassled us. Usually it was the Baptists or evangelicals. But I do know what Catholics teach, I was brought up in a Catholic school and I’ve spent too much time here. I still find the Godhead more “right” than the Trinity. And I know the LDS leaders are only men and sometimes misspeak. I’m not so crazy about the current Pope either though.

TexanKnight: I’m talking about the doctrine right out of the BoM. The fall of Adam and the atonement. There’s nothing like it that I’ve heard. I could never understand why people used to say that Jesus died for my sins until I came across the justice/mercy passages in the BoM. But also the pre-existence, three different kingdoms of glory, plan of hapiness, Godhead instead of Trinity, use of temples, all men to be resurrected, role of prophets, lay priesthood, continuing revelation, restoration and apostacy. You might have seen that “17 points of the true church” which the missionaries don’t seem to use any more. All that still applies. Yeah, I can’t get past any of those basic and re-embrace my Catholic faith.

RebeccaJ: The things that you cite (with the exception of the women’s role) are exactly what my son is concerned about. I don’t know if he’ll take the same path as you and go athiest but it looks like it’s a possibility!

 

[TexanKnight]

I guess I’m hijacking the thread here but frankly, one of my sons (grown and married with two kids) is starting to go through the same thing as many of you have. He sounds exactly like you guys and is concerned about many of the same subjects that you’ve just now mentioned. But I still don’t understand it.

PaulDupre1: True, Catholics are very tolerant. I learned this on my mission, they never hassled us. Usually it was the Baptists or evangelicals. But I do know what Catholics teach, I was brought up in a Catholic school and I’ve spent too much time here. I still find the Godhead more “right” than the Trinity. And I know the LDS leaders are only men and sometimes misspeak. I’m not so crazy about the current Pope either though.

TexanKnight: I’m talking about the doctrine right out of the BoM. The fall of Adam and the atonement. There’s nothing like it that I’ve heard. I could never understand why people used to say that Jesus died for my sins until I came across the justice/mercy passages in the BoM. But also the pre-existence, three different kingdoms of glory, plan of hapiness, Godhead instead of Trinity, use of temples, all men to be resurrected, role of prophets, lay priesthood, continuing revelation, restoration and apostacy. You might have seen that “17 points of the true church” which the missionaries don’t seem to use any more. All that still applies. Yeah, I can’t get past any of those basic and re-embrace my Catholic faith.

The 17 points are hugely problematic. I have debunked all of them. And the Book of Mormon steals its doctrine from the Bible…further, the LDS Church does not follow the “doctrine” from the Book of Mormon". Finally, the Book of Mormon was writrten by a man copyoing from many sources. He tried to make it sound Biblical, so he wrote it using King James English…and by using “and it came to pass” so often is is nauseating.

RebeccaJ: The things that you cite (with the exception of the women’s role) are exactly what my son is concerned about. I don’t know if he’ll take the same path as you and go athiest but it looks like it’s a possibility!

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I guess I’m hijacking the thread here but frankly, one of my sons (grown and married with two kids) is starting to go through the same thing as many of you have. He sounds exactly like you guys and is concerned about many of the same subjects that you’ve just now mentioned. But I still don’t understand it.

I hope your son finds peace and that you do too, whatever decision is taken. It must be very hard for you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ: The things that you cite (with the exception of the women’s role) are exactly what my son is concerned about. I don’t know if he’ll take the same path as you and go athiest but it looks like it’s a possibility!

Mormonism leads to atheism for a lot of people. I think especially Mormons who are BIC and believe God is as Mormonism has taught them.

I’m the opposite of you. When I read Romans and the Gospel of John I understood for the first time what Jesus did for me. He is where I belong. I never had a sense of belonging to God as a Mormon.

To think it is possible to not understand forgiveness without a 19fh century novel is not even reasonable to me. 1800 years of Christians getting it.

There is one thing I learned as an atheist. People believe all kinds of thing as truth. Absolutely and with conviction. Truth is subjective, and within Mormonism truth is subject to each person’s feelings. Atheism is an answer to subjective truth, on the surface, but remains subject to time and circumstance.

Catholicism is the only place I found an objective truth, who is a person, Jesus Christ. I have never come across a Mormon who understands this. Every Mormon is the center of their own truth. It is easy to take a self centered idea of truth, into atheism.

 

[PaulDupre1]

…all men to be resurrected…

You think Catholics don’t believe that all humans will be resurrected? Then you don’t know as much about the Catholic faith as you think you do.

I hear this from Mormons a lot. They somehow have the idea that they are the only ones who believe in a literal, physical, bodily resurrection of all humans, both good and evil.

Weird.

Catholicism has been teaching it for 2000 years.

 

[rmcmullan]

You think Catholics don’t believe that all humans will be resurrected? Then you don’t know as much about the Catholic faith as you think you do.

I hear this from Mormons a lot. They somehow have the idea that they are the only ones who believe in a literal, physical, bodily resurrection of all humans, both good and evil.

Weird.

Catholicism has been teaching it for 2000 years.

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

 

[TexanKnight]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

ah…so polls are now important?

I have polled at least 100 Mormons and not a single one agreed about where the Book of Mormon too place.

so what does that tell you?

 

[Marie5890]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

Polls? Really rmcmullan? Polls???

Oy Vey…

 

[iepuras]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

So you blame the Catholic priests and teachers for not teaching you about the resurrection. What about your parents? Were they Catholic? If so, did they not teach you anything about the faith? Did you ever attend Mass on Sundays? Did you not pay attention to the Creed? Or attend Mass on Easter?

Sorry, but the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is professed far more often in Catholic rituals than in the LDS church. How many times is the Resurrection professed in the LDS temple or during sacrament meeting?

From the Creed which is professed every Sunday:

"I believe… in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontiac Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead… I believe in… the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. "

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Originally Posted by PaulDupre1
You think Catholics don’t believe that all humans will be resurrected? Then you don’t know as much about the Catholic faith as you think you do.

We repeat this belief at every mass

The ending of The Apostles’ Creed:
I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints
The forgiveness of sins
The resurrection of the body
And the life everlasting. Amen.

The ending of The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear.

Did you ever attend mass?

 

[PaulDupre1]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

Maybe you, like I when I was young, simply were not interested in the faith and didn’t pay attention. When I finally felt like I needed God I found I didn’t know anything worthwhile about the bible or religion; the Mormon missionaries were the first ones who came along with any answers so they got me. Sure glad it wasn’t the Hare Krishnas!

 

[RebeccaJ]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

Maybe you took for granted your own belief that not all are resurrected. Did someone teach you this?

 

[LivingWaters7]

So you say but if you polled 100 random Catholics, how do you think the poll would come out? I was brought up and educated Catholic and for whatever reason, that was never made clear. It was the Mormon Elders (that taught me) who first pointed it out to me with Bible verses. If it’s a Catholic teaching great, but it seemed to me at the time that it was more important to the Elders that I know this than it was to all the teachers and priests at the local parish where I grew up. Maybe they took it for granted I knew it. But I am wondering how that poll would turn out.

A “poll” is irrelevant. You can find official Catholic doctrines in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is quite simple to find and read instead of polling individual Catholics who may or may not know the beliefs of the Church (which makes no logical sense anyway).

It is quite clear that the resurrection of all is basic Catholic doctrine, for 2000 years.