Convert from Catholic to Orthodox

[lobster]

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

For me the main reason I have not made such a switch is the papacy. Also while the Orthodox are a communion of Churches, IMHO that communion is weak with out the papacy. It is more like the Anglician communion. (I know this may get me yelled at by others but it is, as I said my opinion.)

Here is what the CCC says;
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”
Notice the bold emphasis I have added… No Orthodox bishop is going to give approval for a Catholic to receive the Eucharist within his Church and this (the approval) must be gotten before one could receive. Also approval of your pastor (who represents your bishop) is also required.

 

[dcointin]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), Section 1399, states:

‘The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”’

My understanding is that a Catholic should, under ordinary circumstances, only commune in a Catholic liturgy. If this is not possible for reasons such as distance from a Catholic parish, they he may, with prior approval from his bishop, commune in an Orthodox liturgy. Orthodox priests, however, will not usually commune a Catholic, though I’ve heard that significant intercommunion exists in the Middle East. The Catholic Church allows this as an “economia” as we call it in Orthodoxy, a deviation from normal practice due to particular circumstances, but this should be the exception, not the rule.

As an Orthodox I can’t answer why he should remain Catholic, but I can tell you the differences between our churches as I see them which he should have resolved in his mind before making his decision.

One, ecclesiology (how we understand the nature of the Church and its governance). Orthodoxy rejects the primacy of the Pope as it’s understood and exercised in the Catholic Church since the schism between our churches.

Two, the filioque (the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son). I’ve come to believe that this matter is mostly a misunderstanding based on language and theological traditions, but it’s usually cited as the most significant dogmatic difference between our churches.

Three, the Immaculate Conception. Orthodox understand original sin slightly differently, and haven’t dogmatized the IC, though many believe it’s an acceptable theological opinion. It is often cited as a theological difference however.

Some of the issues that were important centuries ago such as azymes (whether or not to use leavened or unleavened bread in the Eucharist), are no longer considered important today. There is also a different basic theological approach between the two churches, the west generally being more rational and legal, and the east more mystical and medicinal, and some would say that either approach is inappropriate, but I consider them a difference in emphais, not dogma.

I’ll leave others here to give you more specific responses!

 

[lobster]

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Two, the filioque (the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son). I’ve come to believe that this matter is mostly a misunderstanding based on language and theological traditions, but it’s usually cited as the most significant dogmatic difference between our churches.

I believe this is the truth of the matter. The Eastern Catholic Churches do not recite the filioque in the Creed at their (our) Liturgies.

 

[Aramis]

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

The only real issue is the denial of the papacy. That’s it. The other differences claimed by the RO are in fact polemical… because RO position is not outside what the church permits, it’s just not the normal face.

 

[5Loaves]

Welcome to the Eastern Catholicism section!

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

Others have already addressed concerns you raise. I would however encourage you to read for yourself HH John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen.

If your friend was referring to the Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen then he or she has mis read it if s/he understood HH JPII to be saying the Orthodox “holds more fast to tradition”. Both East and West are bearers of tradition and I don’t think in any writing of a Pope you’d find a claim that the East, Catholic or Orthodox, “holds more fast to tradition”. We of the East, Catholic and Orthodox, do hold fast to our traditions which are distinct from those of the Latin Church of Rome.

There are times when the use of the breathing with both lungs seems to refer to the Latin lung and the Eastern Catholic/Oriental Catholic lung. Other times this image seems to refer to the Western Church and the Eastern Churches (EC/OC and Orthodox/Oriental).

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

…that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

We Eastern Catholics often refer to Orientale Lumen, and especially quotes like " the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it" to mean that Latin Catholics need to wake up to the fact of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches and appreciate that “Catholic” isn’t just the Roman Rite of the Latin Church. I’ve come to think however that it is more likely HH John Paul is referring to all of the Eastern Catholic Churches, Oriental Catholic Churches and Orthodoxy in these quotes.

 

[Hesychios]

The only real issue is the denial of the papacy. That’s it.

Even if you were correct, it is not so simple as it sounds.

The ultramontanist Catholic position is enshrined in no less than two dogmas and a host of canons. Just one heresy is enough to preclude communion and the mere suspicion of heresy or even indiscipline is enough to prevent concelebration or commemoration, but here we have an entire complex of errors and innovations. That mess has to be cleaned up first.

 

[Aramis]

Even if you were correct, it is not so simple as it sounds.

The ultramontanist Catholic position is enshrined in no less than two dogmas and a host of canons. Just one heresy is enough to preclude communion and the mere suspicion of heresy or even indiscipline is enough to prevent concelebration or commemoration, but here we have an entire complex of errors and innovations. That mess has to be cleaned up first.

I’ve seen more issues of it from the Orthodox side than the Catholic one. After all, the Catholic church considers the Orthodox “Catholic Enough” for communion. (But also the PNCC qualifies.)

 

[dvdjs]

Even if you were correct, it is not so simple as it sounds.

The ultramontanist Catholic position is enshrined in no less than two dogmas and a host of canons.

That is not the perspective of the Catholic church. Your perspective our position illustrates the problem that we face, but it is not Catholic teaching.

the mere suspicion of heresy or even indiscipline is enough to prevent concelebration or commemoration, but here we have an entire complex of errors and innovations

. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Practice has varied greatly over time in the EOC.

That mess has to be cleaned up first.

Would be nice if the EOC would respond to the invitation to articulate a coherent perspective on the the meaning of papal primacy in the first millenium.

 

[mardukm]

The only real issue is the denial of the papacy. That’s it. The other differences claimed by the RO are in fact polemical… because RO position is not outside what the church permits, it’s just not the normal face.

I think this is the case, as well. It’s interesting that in the last 19th/ early 20th centuries, the EOC seems to have been willing to consider the ordinations of Anglicans (at least High Anglicans) to be valid, even though Anglicans (at least High Anglicans) accept pretty much everything that the Catholic Church teaches.

It seems the papal dogmas are indeed the defining distinction.

Blessings

 

[Pakesh]

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

I wonder if your friend consider switching his/her canonical enrollment to become an Eastern Catholic? Your friend would remain Catholic, but would experience the beautiful traditions and spirituality of Eastern Christianity.
God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[trophybearer]

I have a friend who just recently converted from Roman Catholic to Russian Orthodox. He claims that the sacraments and Eucharist are valid, they have validly ordained priests, and they have apostolic succession. He also claims that the CCC-1399 encourages Catholics to communicate in Orthodox churches and orientale-lumen praises the Orthodox church and says it holds more fast to tradition. Therefore, for him, there is no compelling reason to choose RC over RO.
I am not very familiar with Orthodoxy at all. What are some good reasons I can give him why this is not acceptable?
Thanks.

Here’s an idea: mind your own business and let your friend work it out for himself. It doesn’t sound like he’s unaware of the differences, so he must have put some thought into this. If it were me I’d tell you to bugger off.

 

[Hesychios]

I wonder if your friend consider switching his/her canonical enrollment to become an Eastern Catholic?

Then he wouldn’t be Orthodox, which is what he seems to want.

Making the EC a halfway house for ‘want-to-be’ Orthodox does not work. Sooner or later they will move on and the EC will be misused once again.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know I started to comment on this yesterday but for some reason I didn’t. Anyway really what we have here is “he said, she said” nonsense. Because the fact of the matter is we don’t have a CLUE on the thinking behind the switch, on the person who is actually switching churchs?

Speculation my friends speculation. So we should go with what one “claims” his friend said?

Maybe its me?

 

[bkovacs]

For me the main reason I have not made such a switch is the papacy. Also while the Orthodox are a communion of Churches, IMHO that communion is weak with out the papacy. It is more like the Anglician communion. (I know this may get me yelled at by others but it is, as I said my opinion.)

Here is what the CCC says;
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. “These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy.” A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged.”
Notice the bold emphasis I have added… No Orthodox bishop is going to give approval for a Catholic to receive the Eucharist within his Church and this (the approval) must be gotten before one could receive. Also approval of your pastor (who represents your bishop) is also required.

I cannot argue with you on this particular point. Your right. There is a better structural unity with the Papacy, but a unifying base for the Orthodox Churches is SCOBA. Keep in mind that most liberal Anglicans don’t even believe that God exists. So comparing the Orthodox with these heretics (Anglican Communion) is a mute point. But the Orthodox do offer a more wholesome Byzantine Experience than Byzantine Catholic Churches do as a whole. Example, do most Byzantine Catholic parishes offer vespers and matins every week. Versus the pre-Sunday Obligation, Saturday Liturgy, for those who are unable to get out of bed on Sunday morning (The Lords Day)?. Most likely not. I also find that the Orthodox Churches have way more resources for learning about the Byzantine traditions on the web, versus Byzantine Catholic sites. Orthodox Christian Network (OCN), Ancient Faith Radio, etcc … as a couple of examples.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I cannot argue with you on this particular point. Your right. There is a better structural unity with the Papacy, but a unifying base for the Orthodox Churches is SCOBA. Keep in mind that most liberal Anglicans don’t even believe that God exists. So comparing the Orthodox with these heretics (Anglican Communion) is a mute point. But the Orthodox do offer a more wholesome Byzantine Experience than Byzantine Catholic Churches do as a whole. Example, do most Byzantine Catholic parishes offer vespers and matins every week. Versus the pre-Sunday Obligation, Saturday Liturgy, for those who are unable to get out of bed on Sunday morning (The Lords Day)?. Most likely not. I also find that the Orthodox Churches have way more resources for learning about the Byzantine traditions on the web, versus Byzantine Catholic sites. Orthodox Christian Network (OCN), Ancient Faith Radio, etcc … as a couple of examples.

You make a good point here but I think some of the Orthodox jurisdictions are just as bad as us Byzantine Catholics on the issue of Vespers and such.

For example I have yet to find a Greek Orthodox Church that offers Great Vespers on Saturdays.

 

[dcointin]

I just checked the websites of the 3 Greek Orthodox parishes in my area (St. Louis), and all 3 offer Orthros, and just 1 Vespers. Clearly there’s room for improvement on both sides, Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic!

 

[lobster]

I wonder if your friend consider switching his/her canonical enrollment to become an Eastern Catholic? Your friend would remain Catholic, but would experience the beautiful traditions and spirituality of Eastern Christianity.
God Bless,
Pakesh

It is actually more complicated than that, since it involves his soon to be wife, who currently lives in Russia. But that is interesting though, I didn’t know you could switch rites.

 

[lobster]

Here’s an idea: mind your own business and let your friend work it out for himself. It doesn’t sound like he’s unaware of the differences, so he must have put some thought into this. If it were me I’d tell you to bugger off.

Don’t worry, I will stay out of your business. Thanks for your two cents.