Converting to Another Faith

[Anna_Scott]

JL: I enjoyed your post, I think you would be a great Catholic. I will pray for you.

[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED of THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were made PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED the good WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN unto repentance; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY to themselves THE SON of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

Paul is addressing a Hebrew Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Paul warns BELIEVERS, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those ONCE Christian Hebrews, who LEFT fell away from the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, thereby loosing the indwelling Holy Spirit, returning to Judaism placing their faith in circumcision and animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin.

It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance. [Mk3:28 Verily I say unto you, ALL SINS SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 BUT he that shall BLASPHEME AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST HATH NEVER FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation.] Blasphemy against the Holy Spriit is basically resisting and rejecting every grace to repent. Yet Hb3:29 says, IS IN DANGER OF ETERNAL DAMNATION, not domed to damnation. So there is still hope till one is actually dead.

jlhargus,

Thank you for your kind words and for your comments.

I appreciate the insight into the passages in Mark and Hebrews. Those are, also, passages I have not totally understood. It does seem right that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is resisting and rejecting every grace to repent–as you said. I have wondered if there is another chance at any point as one is dying or after death.

As for whether or not I would make a good Catholic, I would say the “jury is still out” on that one. So far, I have failed miserably at being a good Protestant. Maybe that’s a good thing. I’m not quite sure.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[GraceDK]

jlhargus,

Thank you for your kind words and for your comments.

I appreciate the insight into the passages in Mark and Hebrews. Those are, also, passages I have not totally understood. It does seem right that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is resisting and rejecting every grace to repent–as you said. I have wondered if there is another chance at any point as one is dying or after death.

As for whether or not I would make a good Catholic, I would say the “jury is still out” on that one. So far, I have failed miserably at being a good Protestant. Maybe that’s a good thing. I’m not quite sure.

In Christ,
Anna

Surely dear sister you have not failed… You are an adopted daughter. God knows what He is doing and He knows what plans He has for you- Good plans about life and peace… Christ is our victory because in Him alone we stand justified with His own justification before the Father. Protestants are good at pointing that out… sometimes even better than the Catholics, even though its all in the Bible
Walk with Christ, indeed let Him carry you like a helpless child in His heart… The deepest saving act of cooperation on our part is humility.
One of your biggest Christian duties is this, to let your self be loved.

Peace be with you and thanks for pointing out to me that I had misunderstood the thread-topic.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Siddhartha,

Romans were polytheists, but Hindus are not.

Is there a technical term that applies to Hindus?

It is not my intention to debate, but only to get a clearer understanding of the point here.

For instance, do Hindus believe that Jesus is a god? Is it that some Hindus do and some do not?

Do Hindus believe that there is another god besides Jesus?

My understanding of some of the major categories of thought on the divine:

• atheism: the position that deities do not exist
• polytheism: the belief in or worship of a plurality of gods
• henotheism: the belief in the existence of many gods but the worship or acknowledgment of only one
• monotheism: the belief in or worship of a single, transcendent god
• pantheism: the belief that God (or the divine) is identical with the world (or in modern thought, perhaps the universe)

Does the fact that some Hindus worship Jesus as a divine reality in some way fit into this framework or constitute another category of thought/belief system?

Thanks, and peace to you

 

[Hesychios]

… when a statement is made - especially one strongly opposed to the point being made - the burden of proving the point is on the person making it.

Therefore, if you want to make a case and state you have evidence for it, please bring it forward. I have done the work, and I can cite scripture to state my case - I only ask you to do the same.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of mythologizing out there in the world.

Sometimes they are “little white lies”, I think. Told to make someone feel better or achieve some other objective, but not really supportable.

For instance, when parents tell their children “you were the prettiest little girl in heaven, and God sent you directly down to us!” they are really teaching a heresy, for the church specifically condemned the teaching of the preexistence of souls!

Likewise when a friend tells a grieving parent that “I am sure that your unbaptized child is in heaven right now smiling down upon you” to console them, he is quite frankly contravening the teaching of the Catholic church. We would like to believe him, in fact we must, to keep our sanity in such a horrible circumstance, but that is not what the Latin Catholic church has taught.

This may be that this “one last chance” concept is a similar case. It might represent “folk religion”, not the teaching of the church, or it might be an example of extended logic applied to other theological ideas.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Surely dear sister you have not failed… You are an adopted daughter. God knows what He is doing and He knows what plans He has for you- Good plans about life and peace… Christ is our victory because in Him alone we stand justified with His own justification before the Father. Protestants are good at pointing that out… sometimes even better than the Catholics, even though its all in the Bible
Walk with Christ, indeed let Him carry you like a helpless child in His heart… The deepest saving act of cooperation on our part is humility.
One of your biggest Christian duties is this, to let your self be loved.

Peace be with you and thanks for pointing out to me that I had misunderstood the thread-topic.

GraceDK,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I needed to hear them today.

May God bless you and your family. Have a happy Christmas, as we celebrate the birth of our Lord.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Unfortunately, there is a lot of mythologizing out there in the world.

Sometimes they are “little white lies”, I think. Told to make someone feel better or achieve some other objective, but not really supportable.

For instance, when parents tell their children “you were the prettiest little girl in heaven, and God sent you directly down to us!” they are really teaching a heresy, for the church specifically condemned the teaching of the preexistence of souls!

Likewise when a friend tells a grieving parent that “I am sure that your unbaptized child is in heaven right now smiling down upon you” to console them, he is quite frankly contravening the teaching of the Catholic church. We would like to believe him, in fact we must, to keep our sanity in such a horrible circumstance, but that is not what the Latin Catholic church has taught.

This may be that this “one last chance” concept is a similar case. It might represent “folk religion”, not the teaching of the church, or it might be an example of extended logic applied to other theological ideas.

I’m just shocked that many times I run into people who seem to think their personal opinion is canon over what 2000 years of Church tradition and scriptural understanding has taught. The only person who ever said, “I say this” and could do it with such authority was Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

RomanCath379:

Please open the Catechism to Paragraph 1021 (Page 266). Whoever gave you the advice that you have one more chance after death is in error according to the teaching of the Catholic Church:

“Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ… each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.” (CCC p. 266, par. 1021)

You may want to show this to your religious friend.

God bless.

 

[SteveVH]

Anna Scott:

Your experience with the Mormons struck at my heart (see my thread Mormon “Apostasy and Restoration”). I am a Catholic youth minister and am trying to recover a former student of mine who has just converted to the LDS church. I’ve been spending much time trying to educate myself about this strange religion. Your honest quest for truth is so admirable. I wish someone like you could speak with this young girl about what she is getting herself into.

Anyway, know that I am praying for you. God loves a heart that is honestly seeking him.

God bless you.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

When a Christian converts to another faith, such a Islam, Judaism, etc., in effect he/she is rejecting Christ. In your opinion, is salvation still possible for that person, or has that person condemned him/her self to hell, or…?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I think if that person, in life, never turns back to Christ their salvation is questionable. But I always remember the criminal crucified with Jesus. He did not have to confess his sins or perform deeds or declare anything other than his belief in Jesus. Jesus with all of his infinite love and compassion that man (and for us) told him that he would be in paradise with him. (This is not to say we should live sinful lives until the moment of death - God knows our hearts and intentions better that we do.)

How great and compassionate is our God! How big is His heart for us? It’s bigger than anything we could all imagine or invent. Peace to all.

 

[RomanCath379]

RomanCath379:

Please open the Catechism to Paragraph 1021 (Page 266). Whoever gave you the advice that you have one more chance after death is in error according to the teaching of the Catholic Church:

“Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ… each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.” (CCC p. 266, par. 1021)

You may want to show this to your religious friend.

God bless.

That paragraph has NOTHING to do with what I said. I personally believe, that Christ, because of his unending mercy, gives us one more chance at the moment of death. I don’t care what the Catechism says about that. There have been recorded evidence when for example, an atheist died and at that last moment, he is actually dead, he calls out the name of JESUS. He is given another chance on earth and comes back to become a Catholic priest. THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED!

 

[SteveVH]

RomCath379:

Maybe I misunderstood you. It all depends on which side of death you are talking about. When you say “at the moment of death” do you mean you have died or are just a the point of death? If you have died, sorry you’re out of luck. If you are at the point of death then I agree that you have a chance, if you have true contrition and step out in faith toward Christ at that moment. Receiving the sacrament of “last rites” can also help. Don’t get me wrong. We should never despair but always hope in the eternal mercy and goodness of God. I’m thankful that He is the judge, not me or you. It is His desire that all be saved.

Certainly, His mercy is stronger than His judgment, but we have this life only to prepare for heaven. We don’t get another chance. To assume that we can pretty much do what we want and then get one last chance after we die is a seriously wrong assumption. It’s kind of like fighting for the enemy until you are captured and then saying “I want to be on your side now”.

As for your comment that the paragraph I cited from the Catechism has nothing to do with it - please explain. I think it clearly has everything to do with it. When you say “I don’t care what the Catechism says about that” but choose to give more validity to your own personal feelings on the matter you are stepping into dangerous territory. The Catechism is the official teaching document of the Catholic Church. Those who choose their personal beliefs over the teaching of the Church are, by definition, Protestant. There is a distinct possibilty here that I have just totally misunderstood your point so you are welcome to correct me. I certainly mean no offense to you.

God bless.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

That paragraph has NOTHING to do with what I said. I personally believe, that Christ, because of his unending mercy, gives us one more chance at the moment of death. I don’t care what the Catechism says about that. There have been recorded evidence when for example, an atheist died and at that last moment, he is actually dead, he calls out the name of JESUS. He is given another chance on earth and comes back to become a Catholic priest. THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED!

First, you are responding emotionally. If you are speaking what you believe is the truth, there should be no need for this. Explanation of your faith should be a show of love, not a cry of wrath.

Second, please prayerfully review what you have just written:

I personally believe…

I don’t care what the Catechism says…

Isn’t your screen name a shortened form of “Roman Catholic”? Don’t you claim to be a Catholic? Then the catechism should mean something to you, and the traditions of the church should mean something to you as well. What makes your personal opinion trump them? Who gave you this authority? By what power do you hold sway over the catechism? As Paul asked the Galatians, what has bewitched you? You have not presented any evidence from Divine Scripture or Holy Tradition for your cause, yet you have stated “I personally believe” based on an opinion derived from some stories you’ve heard.

Like I said before, the only person in history who could ever say “I personally believe” in regards to theology and not blaspheme God was our Lord Christ.

 

[RomanCath379]

First, you are responding emotionally. If you are speaking what you believe is the truth, there should be no need for this. Explanation of your faith should be a show of love, not a cry of wrath.

Second, please prayerfully review what you have just written:

I personally believe…

I don’t care what the Catechism says…

Isn’t your screen name a shortened form of “Roman Catholic”? Don’t you claim to be a Catholic? Then the catechism should mean something to you, and the traditions of the church should mean something to you as well. What makes your personal opinion trump them? Who gave you this authority? By what power do you hold sway over the catechism? As Paul asked the Galatians, what has bewitched you? You have not presented any evidence from Divine Scripture or Holy Tradition for your cause, yet you have stated “I personally believe” based on an opinion derived from some stories you’ve heard.

Like I said before, the only person in history who could ever say “I personally believe” in regards to theology and not blaspheme God was our Lord Christ.

Remember, a little drama will get you nowhere.

 

[dzheremi]

Remember always first the plank in your own eye, folks. This sort of diversion is going nowhere fast except maybe to Locked Threadville.

 

[SteveVH]

RomanCath379:

Wow. I’m a little dissapointed that you won’t attempt to respond to both my post and that of Byzantine_Wolf concerning your apparent lack of respect for the Catechism. You can do better than that.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Remember always first the plank in your own eye, folks. This sort of diversion is going nowhere fast except maybe to Locked Threadville.

Apologies if it seems that way. I am not trying to get off topic, but I think the accusation that a person has one last chance after they die (related to the topic of those who convert to another faith and lose Christ) needs to be addressed, especially if others are going to believe in it or think it might be a good idea.

Remember, a little drama will get you nowhere.

I am not seeking drama, and I don’t believe SteveVH is either. I think most can recognize that. We are only asking you, as siblings in Christ, to seriously consider what you are saying.

 

[RomanCath379]

Apologies if it seems that way. I am not trying to get off topic, but I think the accusation that a person has one last chance after they die (related to the topic of those who convert to another faith and lose Christ) needs to be addressed, especially if others are going to believe in it or think it might be a good idea.

I am not seeking drama, and I don’t believe SteveVH is either. I think most can recognize that. We are only asking you, as siblings in Christ, to seriously consider what you are saying.

If I want to believe that Christ gives us one more chance at the time of death, I will think and hope that. There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong for you to assume otherwise.

 

[Splinker]

RomanCath379:

Please open the Catechism to Paragraph 1021 (Page 266). Whoever gave you the advice that you have one more chance after death is in error according to the teaching of the Catholic Church:

“Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ… each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.” (CCC p. 266, par. 1021)

You may want to show this to your religious friend.

God bless.

I thought this was an excellent piece to quote. Never heard it before and I think these are words that cathoclis would do well to keep close to their heart. (It couldn’t hurt for others to remember it as well). When I read it, it seems to say that it is not simply the acceptance of non-acceptance of Jesus that one is judged on. But how they lived their life and how they loved/had faith in God.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

If I want to believe that Christ gives us one more chance at the time of death, I will think and hope that. There is nothing wrong with that.

Even when this contradicts what your church believes, and what most of your faith believes? Again, what do you know that the writers of the Catechism as well as 2000 years of Church tradition do not know?

I must again, respectfully, point out that you are answering with emotional arguments. When I ask for evidence you simply accuse me of being arrogant. When I ask again for evidence and SteveVH even cites the Catechism against you, you simply respond with, “It’s my belief, I don’t care what anyone says.” When we point out that this is a dangerous theology to take, you accuse us of drama. When we again explain that we are only warning you, you repeat the argument of, “It’s my belief, I don’t care what anyone says.” So far, you have not presented any scriptural or patristic evidence for your case - you’ve only responded with, “I believe it, so there.”

This only shows us that, in actuality, you had no real argument to begin with, and all of this is simply a personal opinion backed by nothing but emotion.

 

[RomanCath379]

Even when this contradicts what your church believes, and what most of your faith believes? Again, what do you know that the writers of the Catechism as well as 2000 years of Church tradition do not know?

I must again, respectfully, point out that you are answering with emotional arguments. When I ask for evidence you simply accuse me of being arrogant. When I ask again for evidence and SteveVH even cites the Catechism against you, you simply respond with, “It’s my belief, I don’t care what anyone says.” When we point out that this is a dangerous theology to take, you accuse us of drama. When we again explain that we are only warning you, you repeat the argument of, “It’s my belief, I don’t care what anyone says.” So far, you have not presented any scriptural or patristic evidence for your case - you’ve only responded with, “I believe it, so there.”

This only shows us that, in actuality, you had no real argument to begin with, and all of this is simply a personal opinion backed by nothing but emotion.

Since you are not a Catholic, and don’t believe in the things we believe as the church established by Christ etc…try and cast the first stone, otherwise stop with the drama. I am done responding to you. Post all you want.