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RomanCath379
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Furthermore, look to your own soul.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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That’s still not an answer
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Anna_Scott
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RomanCath,
I’ve been following this discussion. I’m really curious regarding why you disagree with Catechism on this issue. I thought Catholics did not rely upon private interpretation.
Would you say your belief that “Christ gives us one more chance at the time of death,” is based on your own private interpretation?
If not, could you identify the source of this belief? I’m not taking sides on the issue. I’m just trying to understand why there are different views among Catholics on this particular issue.
Thanks,
Anna
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RomanCath379
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I absolutely would never disagree with our Catechism because it is derived from Scripture itself. I am loyal to the Magesterium with all my heart because that is what Christ wanted. Because of stories documented outside my Catechism, people with evidence of life after death, have convinced others that they were given a chance at the moment of death. I would also like to add, yes, I to believe that God is a merciful God, why wouldn’t He comfort us at that hour? If you died as an atheist, and cried out Jesus, is that not a chance at that moment?
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dzheremi
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There’s a difference between convincing others and teaching solid Church principles, however. I don’t know or really even care to know what sort of evidence these people might have. I care whether or not what they say fits in with scripture and our sacred tradition. I have never heard this concept of a last chance at the moment of death. If you want to believe it, fine, but don’t present it as though it is sound and anyone who questions you about it is arrogant or dishonest.
This is a definite misdirect. We can all agree that God is merciful. He is also vengeful and jealous (Rom. 12:19: “Vengeance is mine, I will repay”). Which is greater than the other? I wouldn’t speculate! This is why we would be wise to reject anything which overly relies on His mercy (as great as it is) to the degree that it overshadows other things we are told of Him in the scripture and in tradition. Sure, it’s NICE to think that we will be given one last chance before we die, but I would rather just take my salvation seriously in the first place than hope that God will turn a blind eye to a life of willful rejection of Him just because I am scared at the moment of death. There is a way out of needing such a “last minute save”, and you and I both know* who He is…*whatever someone else might or might not be offered is really beside the point. That’s a perfect reason, in fact, to reject your idea: Because why trade the true path to salvation for one we don’t know? There is a good reason why not every idea can be found in the writings of the apostles or the early church fathers, and it is not necessarily because all those ideas are “wrong”, but because not all of them can be shown to be right, so it is best to be conservative, and to stick to what it is handed down without adding anything.
Did you watch the video I posted earlier? After death, there is no chance! That is a certain truth we need not speculate on. Ba’ad el mout mafesh forsa! :sad_yes:
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Byzantine_Wolf
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RomanCath379
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Stop trying to play God here. NO ONE KNOWS until that time…
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Dzheremi wasn’t playing God at all. Again, another emotional reaction to an honest response.
I have a feeling Jesus could come down from heaven and tell you you’re wrong, and you’d just say, “I don’t care what you say! I believe it! No one knows until that time! But I still follow your every word!”
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Siddhartha
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Yes: Monotheism.Hi Siddhartha,
Is there a technical term that applies to Hindus?
Some Hindus who believe in Vishnu as the Transcendent Deity believe that Jesus is an avatar, or an incarnation, of Vishnu. Other Hindus who belong to other traditions might see Jesus as an advanced Yogi, or a Siddha (a really advanced Yogi).
Many Hindus believe in the existence of many avatars, or incarnations, of the Transcendent Deity.
Most Hindus are not atheists. It is possible to be an atheist and a Hindu, just like it’s possible to be an atheist and Jewish.
Hindus are not “polytheists” because polytheism in the West means “multiple deities, totally separate from one another, none of whom are Infinitely Transcendent”. Whereas Hindus do believe in multiple devas (which are divine persons whose source is the Transcendent Deity, and who thus are not totally separate from one another), but these devas are not given the same attention that is given the Transcendent Deity. So Hinduism might be called “polydevaic”, but not “polytheistic” – since there is only One Theos, the Transcendent Deity.
Some Hindus might be labeled henotheistic, but a more accurate term would be henodevaic – the awareness of multiple devas while choosing to worship one particular deva. Hindus who worship a deva, nevertheless, would see that deva as a particular manifestation of the One Transcendent Deity.
Pantheism would equate the One Transcendent Deity with Nature – which would be a contradiction, because the Transcendent Deity necessarily transcends, or goes beyond, Nature. So few Hindus, if any Hindus, would be pantheistic.
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josie_L
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I think that God is always calling upon us to believe in him even at the very moment of death so to some extent you are correct. I recollect a story which I posted here on CAF (there are many stories like this) that showed how merciful God is even to unbelievers in that He gave this man a “last chance” to cry out to God and thus be saved (and yes, technically he was dead when this happened). We none of us know what goes on in the minds of those who are about to die, did they at some point recognize the truth of God? Only God knows this.
p.s. I had a friend of mine who killed himself (a mortal sin) and I know in my heart of hearts that God being merciful would take into account who he was before this happened. I prayed for many years that his soul would find respite and salvation, I don’t believe that this is wishful thinking on my part.
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josie_L
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I think what he meant by "I don’t care . . . " is that it is not relevant to what he was arguing (he mentions this in his post).
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RomanCath379
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Thank you Josie for understanding what is so small and so clear as to what I meant. God Bless you for planting you in the church He founded.
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RomanCath379
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That is a terrible thing to say to me BW. If you knew whom I am, you wouldn’t say this. But your signature says it all.
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dzheremi
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What is the problem with the Jesus Prayer?
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josie_L
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I think he meant the opposite of what you understood, i.e., that there is no problem because the prayer mentions Jesus’s mercy (the very thing that RomanCath is arguing for).What is the problem with the Jesus Prayer?
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Anna_Scott
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I personally believe, that Christ, because of his unending mercy, gives us one more chance at the moment of death. I don’t care what the Catechism says about that. There have been recorded evidence when for example, an atheist died and at that last moment, he is actually dead, he calls out the name of JESUS. He is given another chance on earth and comes back to become a Catholic priest. THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED!
RomanCath379,
It sounds like you are basing your assumptions, regarding a last chance after death, on experiences others have relayed to you. You speak of an atheist who died, and at that last moment, he called out the name of Jesus, and was given another chance.
I think it is important to understand that death is often a process. It is not always instantaneous.
Those who were revived and lived to tell their story, may not have reached the final stage of death. Medical records in these cases would have to be carefully reviewed. When the brain is deprived of oxygen, all sorts of dreams, visions, and hallucinations can occur.
At the same time, anything is possible with God. This person, may have truly had an experience with Christ. Something very powerful must have happened to change this man’s heart.
I am a retired heath care professional. I have witnessed some very strange things through the years. In one particular case in ICU, extensive measures were taken to revive a woman in cardiac arrest. Despite all efforts, heart and respiratory functions could not be restored. The monitor showed a flat line. The doctor pronounced her dead, and then had to tell the family that their loved one had died.
Staff started to disconnect the medical equipment. Just before the electrodes for the cardiac monitor were removed, her heart started beating spontaneously. Then, she started breathing again. The doctor had to go back and tell the family she wasn’t really dead. Imaging trying to explain that to the family. That was one of the strangest experiences in my career.
The question is, did this woman come back from the dead, or did the medications and other resuscitation efforts finally kick in? Had she simply not reached the final stage of death? It’s really very complicated. Even with all the medical knowledge we have, there are still unknowns.
I think the key point to remember, in the case you described, is that this person was revived. He may have had a spiritual experience with Christ, but that does not mean he was really dead. If he was dead, coming back to life would involve a resurrection by Christ. I would ask you, “Are we allowed more than one death and more than one resurrection?” Scripture does speak to that issue. I would imagine Catechism does as well.
I don’t think it is wise to take the experiences of those “revived” or “resuscitated,” and apply them to the dead–those who could not be revived.
I would hope that Christ would visit us, before we enter the point of no return in death. I think we want to believe in second chances. I don’t claim to know what happens, when we reach the finality of death. I continue to be a Protestant searching.
I ask you to ponder this question: If you are wrong, and there is no second chance after death; would you want to carry the responsibility of leading others astray?
In Christ,
Anna
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Byzantine_Wolf
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Yes, they said “I don’t care what the Catechism says.” That’s a fairly straightforward statement.
My signature says it all? That response makes little to no sense.
If you don’t like that example, I can give another one. John MacArthur, renown Evangelical apologist, wrote a book entitled Charismatic Chaos, which was in response to many practices among the Charismatic churches that went against orthodox Christian belief - much of which included experiences. He mentions in the introduction that he once received a letter from a woman who told him, “Throw out your Bible, church history, and lexicon…and just experience it!” Such statements and beliefs, of course, are dangerous to our salvation and theology. The minute we throw these out, we invite heresy and self-destruction.
So when you tell us essentially, “Throw out your Bible, catechism, and tradition, and just follow this one experience I heard about and my interpretation of it,” you can understand if we respond with hope that you would follow the magisterium you claim to so readily follow.
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RomanCath379
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Bw, you sound like an angry Orthodox. You are distorting what I said and you just keep on harping and harping on that small thought I have. I suggest you concentrate on your own religion, which was broken away from the true church in which Christ established. I am not charasmatic, and I resent you comparing me to others like that. But I am not dealing with one here who is in fullness of the true church, so frankly Charlotte, I don’t give a d—.
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RomanCath379
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Furthermore, I do not see others here making a big deal out of this. Only you. Are you angry? To think one could say that they believe God give them one more chance before they die, only for you to make it out to be so ugly is really sad. You really look foolish.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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I sound angry? I’m not angry at all. Again, emotional argument in the place of sincere response. And an “angry Orthodox”? That’s a logical fallacy known as an ad hominem.
Again, more ad hominems.
I don’t think I look foolish at all, because I’m not the only one bringing this up. Both dzheremi and SteveVH have addressed what you’ve said, with SteveVH even presenting his own evidence to counter yours, and asking you to address key issues he’s brought up that you’ve thus far ignored. You’ve acknowledge at least one post of each, therefore for you to say I look foolish because I’m the only one addressing it…well, I’m sorry, but that only makes you look foolish.
The fact is, you claimed to have asked someone’s opinion on this. You then said they had scriptural evidence for this. You didn’t cite it. You were asked to sound it. You simply responded with, “You sound arrogant.” You respond to every call for evidence with an ad hominem, a statement similar to, “I don’t care what anyone says, I believe this,” or a “You’re being mean to me”-like retort. Thus far, you haven’t cited any evidence for this. This is what people are harping on - the fact you are talking theology and acting defensive with apparently no capability to defend it other than personal opinion. You may not belong to a Charismatic church, but that is a very Charismatic position to take.
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