Converting to Another Faith

[Anna_Scott]

Bw, I think my PM’s said it better…enough is enough. My fellow Catholics (is that what you mean?) Have supported me in a harmless thought. You are not Catholic, therefore I do not expect you to understand. You carry yourself off as all high and mighty. I hope one day when you are taken from this life, you are given a chance at your time of death for the forgiveness you need for putting me down about a simple, helpless thought. Only non-Catholics here seem to swoop down on anything one says, so that non-Catholics can come off as all high and mighty as you do. You aren’t even in the church Jesus established, let alone you can say anything about anyone. We also believe in Sacred Tradition. We do not just go by the bible alone. I am totally done with you. You need to practice kindness. You are so off-topic it isn’t funny.

RomanCath379,

Again, with the insults, and tactics of avoidance.

You still are not answering questions or providing Scripture to support your claims. You did say your beliefs come from Scripture. Please quote the Scripture.

Even in your statement above, you are saying Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition and do not go by the Bible alone. So, where is the Sacred Tradition to support your claims?

Granted I am not Catholic. I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector. I have read post after post from Catholics pointing out the problems with “private interpretation.” I agree, private interpretation in the Protestant sector causes many problems, and leads many into error.

So, what am I to think of claims that you cannot support with Scripture/Catechism/Apostolic Tradition? Aren’t you making claims based on “private interpretation”?

And yes, we are way off topic. Javl has been very patient to allow us to continue this discussion on a Thread about “Converting to Another Faith.”

Anna

 

[RomanCath379]

What PM’s? You didn’t send me any.

This is another ad hominem. You keep repeating this as if it holds any merit. Repeating an argument is not the same as demonstrating it. In fact, what’s ironic about this statement is I believe, if you sincerely study this thread, the majority of Catholics have sided with me, the angry Orthodox

I understand about Holy Tradition, the Orthodox have a similar belief (in fact I mentioned tradition when we first started talking). I understand how important it is in Roman Catholicism as well. That’s why SteveVH, one of your fellow Catholics, quoted the Catechism against you. You declared that you didn’t care what the Catechism said (then many posts later claimed to live by the Catechism).

As for off-topic…I think anyone reading this thread will recognize I am, in fact, being quite on topic, and that the only one dancing around any serious discussion here has been you. Let’s review what started this conversation:

I asked:

You responded with:

Therefore, I said:

All you had to do was quote the relevant scripture. All you had to do was respond with, “Of course, here is the relevant scripture, and if you look at this Father of the Church, blah blah blah…”

Instead, here’s how you’ve responded thus far:

(BTW, the quote is “my dear, I don’t give…,” and isn’t spoken to “Charlotte” - it’s given to a character named Scarlett)

I think it’s quite clear that, first and foremost, your initial argument has crumbled. Your statement that “a religious” told you this with scriptural evidence has been transformed into the statement that it’s your personal experience and you don’t care what anyone else says (even the Catechism of the Roman Church), you believe in it nonetheless.

You can continue with ad hominems and repeating the same claims over and over again and trying to distract to other topics…but they don’t answer the question presented you, and they reveal to everyone here that you really have no answer. It’s been five pages, and as far as we know you have no scriptural or traditional argument to defend what you say - which, you remember, was the basis of your original point.

Again, I will ask you: please present scriptural evidence for what you believe.

Because you interpreted my saying tht I sent you PM’s, when in fact it was about people here sending them to me, clearly shows me, and others how you take things the wrong way… I will pray that you come into the fold of Jesus Christ’s Catholic church, the one true church He founded. I refuse to answer anything you have to say, based on the grounds that I only have to answer to one. That being Christ Himself. You come on here as so perfect, yet you criticize and judge others. If that is what the Orthodox church does, then I’d want no part of it. Good luck and God Bless. Oh, and frankly Charlotte, I don’t give a d—

 

[RomanCath379]

RomanCath379,

Again, with the insults, and tactics of avoidance.

You still are not answering questions or providing Scripture to support your claims. You did say your beliefs come from Scripture. Please quote the Scripture.

Even in your statement above, you are saying Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition and do not go by the Bible alone. So, where is the Sacred Tradition to support your claims?

Granted I am not Catholic. I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector. I have read post after post from Catholics pointing out the problems with “private interpretation.” I agree, private interpretation in the Protestant sector causes many problems, and leads many into error.

So, what am I to think of claims that you cannot support with Scripture/Catechism/Apostolic Tradition? Aren’t you making claims based on “private interpretation”?

And yes, we are way off topic. Javl has been very patient to allow us to continue this discussion on a Thread about “Converting to Another Faith.”

Anna

Sorry, but I refuse to get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant, as you put it…

 

[Anna_Scott]

Sorry, but I refuse to get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant, as you put it…

Fortunately, there are many Catholic and Orthodox Christians on these forums, who are very willing to help a “disenchanted Protestant,” such as myself, on the journey of finding God’s truth.

I will not burden you further.

Anna

 

[Nine_Two]

Because you interpreted my saying tht I sent you PM’s, when in fact it was about people here sending them to me,

Err you referenced the PM’s first and foremost as though you expected him to have some knowledge of what was contained therein, meaning either he sent them to you or you sent them to him.

But what do I know, I’m just another angry Orthodox.

Still, you have been offered correction in your error by fellow Catholics, it would probably be best now if they’d follow the teaching of Titus 3:10. Nothing more can come from this but petty name calling.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Err you referenced the PM’s first and foremost as though you expected him to have some knowledge of what was contained therein, meaning either he sent them to you or you sent them to him.

But what do I know, I’m just another angry Orthodox.

Still, you have been offered correction in your error by fellow Catholics, it would probably be best now if they’d follow the teaching of Titus 3:10. Nothing more can come from this but petty name calling.

As you can see by BWolf’s Post#99, which contains multiple posts by RomanCath, the name-calling is pretty much one-sided.

Anyway, there’s really nothing more I can say, since RomanCath has said he refuses to “get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant.” I guess I’ll return to the leper’s camp.

Anna

 

[RomanCath379]

Before I go, I’d like to apologize if I have offended anyone, it wasn’t really my intentions.
God Bless.

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

I dont know why but this debate reminds me of lyrics from Canibus on a song called Hell

"Doctors in white labcoats scramble for an antidote to save you
You can’t breathe, your chest feels painful
Your skin color’s goin from dark brown to beige-blue
Your whole room’s full of angels
All in your ear tryin to tell you which God you should pray to
You pray to Je-sus, but He don’t wanna save you
Cuz you unfaithful, so He gives you to Azazel"

 

[Javl]

In reading these posts, I am both hurt and saddened that a fellow Catholic has acted in such a way. To my Orthodox Brothers, and to Anna Scott, please accept profound apologies and do not hold all Catholics responsible for the action of a few. Although there may be some doctrinal or theological disputes it does not mean that we should treat each other shabbily. We are, after all, followers and disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

These forums are supposed to be a means of dialogue to learn from each other and to understand each others beliefs, not to argue over a silly point.

I have learned quite a lot from all the posters on this thread and hope each one has learned also. Again, apologies and God’s abundant blessings to all.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[RomanCath379]

In reading these posts, I am both hurt and saddened that a fellow Catholic has acted in such a way. To my Orthodox Brothers, and to Anna Scott, please accept profound apologies and do not hold all Catholics responsible for the action of a few. Although there may be some doctrinal or theological disputes it does not mean that we should treat each other shabbily. We are, after all, followers and disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

These forums are supposed to be a means of dialogue to learn from each other and to understand each others beliefs, not to argue over a silly point.

I have learned quite a lot from all the posters on this thread and hope each one has learned also. Again, apologies and God’s abundant blessings to all.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You gotta be kidding me…have you seen the way I was treated??? You are apologizing for me?? Oh, boy. even others who have PM’ed me said I was nothing but harrassed over a simple thought about God’s Grace. Don’t apologize for me. Speak only for yourself. Now goodbye!

 

[Anna_Scott]

In reading these posts, I am both hurt and saddened that a fellow Catholic has acted in such a way. To my Orthodox Brothers, and to Anna Scott, please accept profound apologies and do not hold all Catholics responsible for the action of a few. Although there may be some doctrinal or theological disputes it does not mean that we should treat each other shabbily. We are, after all, followers and disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

These forums are supposed to be a means of dialogue to learn from each other and to understand each others beliefs, not to argue over a silly point.

I have learned quite a lot from all the posters on this thread and hope each one has learned also. Again, apologies and God’s abundant blessings to all.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl,

You are very kind, but no need for any apologies.

I am more worried about RomanCath, than anything that was said to me. I know he wants to believe we have a second chance after death. Perhaps we do. I would love to believe that, as well. I just have not found Scripture or anything to support the idea. I think we have to be careful not to mislead our fellow man.

I do not doubt that miracles exist. Truly, with God, nothing is impossible. I do not know what happens, when we are teetering on that fine line between life and death. If Christ told the man to “go back,” that still does not mean the man’s body had reached the finality of death.

Even if the man in question was given a second chance to live a life for Christ, that does not mean he was resurrected from the dead.

I don’t think we can make the same assumption for someone who was resuscitated and revived, and someone who actually died. These are two entirely different things.

There are many reports of “near death” experiences–the key being “near.” Near death is not the same as death.

Even if we are given a second chance to choose Christ after death, does that mean we are brought back from the dead to live out that second chance? This is truly a complicated issue. I do not claim to have the answers.

I would simply caution hasty conclusions, since people’s souls are at stake. One might be tempted to say, “Well, I’m going to get a second chance, after I die; so it really doesn’t matter what I do in this life.”

Anna

 

[Javl]

Javl,

You are very kind, but no need for any apologies.

I am more worried about RomanCath, than anything that was said to me. I know he wants to believe we have a second chance after death. Perhaps we do. I would love to believe that, as well. I just have not found Scripture or anything to support the idea. I think we have to be careful not to mislead our fellow man.

I do not doubt that miracles exist. Truly, with God, nothing is impossible. I do not know what happens, when we are teetering on that fine line between life and death. If Christ told the man to “go back,” that still does not mean the man’s body had reached the finality of death.

Even if the man in question was given a second chance to live a life for Christ, that does not mean he was resurrected from the dead.

I don’t think we can make the same assumption for someone who was resuscitated and revived, and someone who actually died. These are two entirely different things.

There are many reports of “near death” experiences–the key being “near.” Near death is not the same as death.

Even if we are given a second chance to choose Christ after death, does that mean we are brought back from the dead to live out that second chance? This is truly a complicated issue. I do not claim to have the answers.

I would simply caution hasty conclusions, since people’s souls are at stake. One might be tempted to say, “Well, I’m going to get a second chance, after I die; so it really doesn’t matter what I do in this life.”

Anna

To my knowledge, death is the total cessation of all bodily functions, permanently.Clinical death does not always mean a finality, there is much proof for that, and as stated, there is a vast difference between resuscitation and resurrection. Resurrection is for the end of time.

As for “out of body” experiences that does not prove death in any way, as you and many others have stated. I think that o-o-b experinces can be used to prove the existence of the, soul. As for life after death, I believe in that because Our Lord has said so, and He does not lie.

Our God has given us many many examples of life and death in this world and of life in the next. So, whatever happens, it is Our God who decides one way or the other. It is up to us to pay exceedingly close attention to whatever He says and try not to tell Him what to do. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

You gotta be kidding me…have you seen the way I was treated??? You are apologizing for me?? Oh, boy. even others who have PM’ed me said I was nothing but harrassed over a simple thought about God’s Grace. Don’t apologize for me. Speak only for yourself. Now goodbye!

From what I’ve read of the posts I’m sorry to say that you were in the wrong. You had made a statement saying that it was in scripture. When asked where in scripture you did answer in a snippity way saying to look it up, and it just escalated from there. That is my assessment of the situation. Now if I am wrong, I apologize to you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[RomanCath379]

From what I’ve read of the posts I’m sorry to say that you were in the wrong. You had made a statement saying that it was in scripture. When asked where in scripture you did answer in a snippity way saying to look it up, and it just escalated from there. That is my assessment of the situation. Now if I am wrong, I apologize to you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

**YOU ARE WRONG. I do not remember this thread being titled “Life and the after death”. A SIMPLE THOUGHT ABOUT GOD’S GRACE HERE was all that was said. BW had turned it into a circus with his ridiculous unending questions. But I am not surprised at how non-Catholics here have done this. GOD’S GRACE IS ALL THROUGH SCRIPTURE, AND THERE, YOU HAVE IT NOW. THE WHOLE BOOK IS ABOUT GOD’S GRACE. Now please, get on with your lives…geez… **

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Sorry, but I refuse to get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant, as you put it…

Anna Scott is a humble seeker of God. Ad hominems against Protestants are no better than ad hominems against Orthodox.

In reading these posts, I am both hurt and saddened that a fellow Catholic has acted in such a way. To my Orthodox Brothers, and to Anna Scott, please accept profound apologies and do not hold all Catholics responsible for the action of a few.

It is quite all right, my brother in Christ. The actions of one Catholic are not going to ruin my opinion of all of them. Plus most of my experiences here on CAF with Catholics have been about 99% positive.

**YOU ARE WRONG. I do not remember this thread being titled “Life and the after death”. A SIMPLE THOUGHT ABOUT GOD’S GRACE HERE was all that was said. BW had turned it into a circus with his ridiculous unending questions. But I am not surprised at how non-Catholics here have done this. GOD’S GRACE IS ALL THROUGH SCRIPTURE, AND THERE, YOU HAVE IT NOW. THE WHOLE BOOK IS ABOUT GOD’S GRACE. Now please, get on with your lives…geez… **

Unending questions? I don’t understand the use of the plural, as I’ve only asked one: where did you find your belief in scripture? If you mean that I kept asking it, it’s only because you kept responding like this. I’m suddenly reminded of what Stephen Colbert said to Bill O’Reilly: “You know what you teach people? It’s not what you say, it’s how loud you say it.”

 

[JaredR]

Wow, what a thread. Far from being arrogant and unkind, Byzantine_Wolf has been very patient and gentle with you from what I can see.

You are looking for a speck in his eye when you can’t see the log in your own. Come back and re-read this thread when you’ve cooled down. Your posts read like temper tantrums. :nope:

 

[Anna_Scott]

Sorry, but I refuse to get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant, as you put it…

Anna Scott is a humble seeker of God. Ad hominems against Protestants are no better than ad hominems against Orthodox.

Mr. Wolf,

I appreciate your kind words on my behalf.

On the Forums, I had my “Religion” listed as “Christian,” until I found a Thread that asked why people did not identify their religious background. The OP made a very good point, in saying it is easier to have discussions when you understand a person’s religious background.

So, I changed my Religious designation to “Former Baptist, now Disenchanted Protestant.” I am very open about my religious struggles. I choose to be open and reveal my vulnerabilities in the search of God’s truth. Finding truth is more important to me than being right or winning a debate.

RomanCath379 shot his arrow at a most vulnerable point, when he said, “I refuse to get caught up with a disenchanted Protestant.” This is very sad, more so for RomanCath than for me. I am praying for him.

It is quite all right, my brother in Christ. The actions of one Catholic are not going to ruin my opinion of all of them. Plus most of my experiences here on CAF with Catholics have been about 99% positive.

I feel the same way. There are many wonderful Catholics on the Forums.

Unending questions? I don’t understand the use of the plural, as I’ve only asked one: where did you find your belief in scripture? If you mean that I kept asking it, it’s only because you kept responding like this. I’m suddenly reminded of what Stephen Colbert said to Bill O’Reilly: “You know what you teach people? It’s not what you say, it’s how loud you say it.”

You have shown an extreme measure of patience in trying to get one simple question answered.

I think it is good for us to stop and consider the “why” behind our beliefs. We do need to back up our claims. That is something I have come to more fully realize, since I’ve been on these Forums.

You’re a good man, Mr. Wolf.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You have shown an extreme measure of patience in trying to get one simple question answered.

What can I say? Certain Muslims on this forum have given me good practice.

 

[Hesychios]

I am still interested in the original question:

When a Christian converts to another faith, such a Islam, Judaism, etc., in effect he/she is rejecting Christ. In your opinion, is salvation still possible for that person, or has that person condemned him/her self to hell, or…?

 

[agent_grey]

EENS