Converting to Another Faith

[Monte1945]

Anna Scott:

Your experience with the Mormons struck at my heart (see my thread Mormon “Apostasy and Restoration”). I am a Catholic youth minister and am trying to recover a former student of mine who has just converted to the LDS church. I’ve been spending much time trying to educate myself about this strange religion. Your honest quest for truth is so admirable. I wish someone like you could speak with this young girl about what she is getting herself into.
God bless you.

I think, that if I wanted to just drop one seed to this young lady… and let that seed
develop on it’s own… I would mention that the Latter Day Saints claim that Joseph
Smith was a prophet and I would then ask her to read very carefully this comment
that Jesus made during his ministery…

Luke 16
16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

From the view that there were no more Prophets to come and that, when Jesus
said on the cross “It is finished” it was and is…

And let the Holy Spirit lead, guide and direct her further…

 

[SteveVH]

I am quite surprised that, as a Catholic, you would answer in such a manner. We are here to discuss our beliefs and teach and learn from each other.

A simple question was asked that deserves an honest answer. I would also recommend an apology for such a crass response to Ms Scott.

I couldn’t agree more. We have given RomanCath379 the official teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter which he refuses to accept. Unfortunately, calling oneself Catholic does not always translate into actually being one. I know too many cafeteria Catholics and they are an embarrassment to our faith, especially in a public forum. Being Catholic includes submitting to the teachings of the Church. RomanCath379, if you don’t agree with it no one has a gun to your head. Maybe you should try something else or start your own church based upon out of body experiences.

 

[SteveVH]

I think, that if I wanted to just drop one seed to this young lady… and let that seed
develop on it’s own… I would mention that the Latter Day Saints claim that Joseph
Smith was a prophet and I would then ask her to read very carefully this comment
that Jesus made during his ministery…

Luke 16
16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

From the view that there were no more Prophets to come and that, when Jesus
said on the cross “It is finished” it was and is…

And let the Holy Spirit lead, guide and direct her further…

Thank you for that. I’ve sent her countless examples of Mormon doctrine conflicting with scripture along with many of the false prophesies given by Joseph Smith. This is a verse I somehow missed and is excellent. My fear is that she has converted due to an interest in a Mormon boy and not for doctrinal reasons, but you are correct in planting seeds that hopefully will grow as she matures a little.

 

[Monte1945]

You should probably read the that passage more carefully, along with what came before and after it. You should also understand that the “unknown god” was not one god that the Greeks worshiped - it was actually a “backup” god that was worshiped along with the 12 other gods of popular Greek mythology. It was one god in the midst polytheism, not a god of monotheism.
/QUOTE]

No, my point was more basic… you must forgive my lack of education and I
am certainly not a writer…

what I am saying is that God can come to us from different means other than
the written word of God… Certainly millions of people lived and died before
there was a written language for them. Or had Apostles or deciples visit
and preach too them. I was kind of thinking of the fact that those people
who had put up that idle to the unknown God were like many other people
who had no knowledge of the Written Word of Scriptures yet they felt
a drawing towards this unknown God.

This was written from the point of view that there are many different religions
in our world… not only various Christian ones but others too… And maybe,
their drawings is from the same God as we know of.

Certainly the book of Hebrews saids that God will write his laws in everyone’s mind
and heart and NO one will have to say to his neighbor or his brother KNOW the lord
as all shall know me from the least to the great…

I certainly believe in the Word of God, but the first step of that knowledge is to acknowledge the fact that there is first The Word of God, which is Jesus and there
is the written word of God which is the bible… two different forms of the same.

Grace can come from both… individually…

God can and does work outside of the Written Word Of Scriptures…

When I think of all of those souls who never had the Written Word of God nor
the preaching of the Word of God directed to them. I feel somehow, yet I do not
understand it, that God will make a way for them too.

The closest I can come to making sense of that, and of course it is my personal
opinion and confidence that God will work out some way to do it…

Is the simple form of… God is Love… and love comes to all people regardless
of nation, creed and or formed religion through all and any church…
Maybe, and I say MAYBE, if someone responds to the love in their life… and they
realize that to love with sacrifice of self for the loved… one is responding to God.
And in that way, they may come to know the true son of God… “love”…

One day, when we had a visiting Monk come to us, and give us a talk… he
said something very interesting… (Dom Wulstan Mork O.S.B.)
He said, that the price Jesus paid for our sins was not in the death of his sacrifice
but in the “offering of his life”… and thus we are called to offer the life we
can live for ourselves to the life we can live for those in our lives whom we
can reach out and love with that same kind of love and concern…

But this is speculation… The only reason I have written this is because I think you kind of missed my point in my other post so I thought I might try and stretch it out some…

So, what is the point… so many different religions of so many sincere people it is
difficult for me to accept that they might have just missed the boat… because some
one with a bible didn’t show up… Certainly the bible is the Holy Scripture of God
but is He limited to His work of salvation through it only… Hmmm

 

[Monte1945]

Emphasis is mine:
Hi Monte1945,
I appreciate your comment, and the thief on the cross does demonstrate salvation just prior to death.
RomanCath379 wrote about a man, he claims was given a second chance and came back from the dead. So, the question moved from whether or not we get a second chance at the moment of death, to whether or not we get a second chance after death.

I do welcome any comments you have on this.
Anna

Well, that makes a different point… I must have missed that in my reading…
I have never heard of that one being brought up before…

Well, certainly there is quite a difference between Catholic doctrines and traditions
than non-catholic denominations but… I don’t think we can get a real grip on that
particular question… from the traditions of the Catholic Church or the written scriptures…

I guess one could speculate and we can mention some avenues that might aid us…

There certainly was a number of resurrestions from the scriptures and I glanced at a book
at the library at the Catholic Church I attend here… It was written of five hundred resurrections of the dead after the Apostles were long dead… I did not actually read any of it, just picked it up and read the introduction to it. I don’t recall that anyone who was ever raised from the dead… was later introducted to a state of salvation…

And of course as a Catholic we are taught to pray for the dead… but as for them receiving salvation through our prayers… I don’t recall that. Usually we pray for the souls in what we consider a state of transferring their bad habits from their mortal bodies and entering into
their heavenly state of being… known as “purgatory”… which is not a “place” as some say but a state of transition.

Other than that… I don’t have any idea…

I am an old Catholic and come from the old school of pre-vatican II and I have went
through some very intense changes from the way we used to approach our Faith
than what the post Vatican II Catholics do now… But do not misunderstand me,
nothing which was changed had to do with any kind of doctrine of the Faith.

I think one of the new and exciting changes is that lay catholics are now lead to really
dig into the bible to read and to take part in what was very weak in my youth… and that
was the ability to use scriptures to show non-catholics that what the church teaches has actual scripture foundation… And the most interesting difference is that the Church
now asks her members to actually go out and evangualize the faith… to proclaim it
and to defend it… Prior to the sixties this was not taught… men and women my age
read the bible but we did not engage in conversation regarding it…
One of my main points is that some of us are new at this discussing our faith
and it is kind of awkward for some of us, as it is quite evident that there is a great
difference between the catholic faith and of the non-catholic denominations…
and these differences which from what I have read on this forum and others is
that there isn’t, most of the time, a realistic explamation of what these differences
are…

I don’t mean to go off topic here but it seems this lack of knowledge between the two different views of what each believer believes… is keeping people from really understanding one another…

There is such a difference… that I can see from the comments of what people are writing
on both sides that this difference is very relative to keep people from actually communicating.

From one of my views people are talking about what they are thinking but they are not thinking the same “conclusions” though they are using the same words within their
conclusions… does that make sense? smile…

for example you say Salvation and you think of what that means too you from your past church experience and what they taught you… I say salvation and I am thinking of it as a catholic and you might be very suprised as to what I consider that word to mean.
It is very different than what I see from non-catholic posts here…
Totally different… I am suggesting that maybe posts here might be of more detail
from what what doctrine the writer is coming from.

Just some thoughts… sorry if it is off topic…

 

[Javl]

Thank you for that. I’ve sent her countless examples of Mormon doctrine conflicting with scripture along with many of the false prophesies given by Joseph Smith. This is a verse I somehow missed and is excellent. My fear is that she has converted due to an interest in a Mormon boy and not for doctrinal reasons, but you are correct in planting seeds that hopefully will grow as she matures a little.

Might I suggest the book “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin. It is available in any Christian bookstore. Dr. Martin was a Baptist minister who did extensive research into the various American cult systems, Of course he is vilified and called a liar, etc. by the various cults and cultists, but believe me, he knew what he was talking about ( he is now deceased ). There is a section on Mormonism in the book and is extensive. I am quite sure that it would be of help. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SteveVH]

Might I suggest the book “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin. It is available in any Christian bookstore. Dr. Martin was a Baptist minister who did extensive research into the various American cult systems, Of course he is vilified and called a liar, etc. by the various cults and cultists, but believe me, he knew what he was talking about ( he is now deceased ). There is a section on Mormonism in the book and is extensive. I am quite sure that it would be of help. God Bless.

Thanks. I’ll check it out. What I have tried to do in educating myself is to go directly to Mormon writings, such as “Apostasy and Restoration” which was actually sent to me by the young woman who recently converted. That one article has given me enough to chew on for the forseeable future. It would take a book to adequately refute the beliefs stated there. I have come to the conclusion that we speak entirely different languages. “God” to a Catholic, or any other Christian does not mean the same thing as “God” to a Mormon. The same follows for “Jesus”, “Holy Spirit”, “Priest”, “Bishop” and so on. There is a definite lack of communication of which I’m not sure either side is really aware. But I digress, this thread is not for the purpose of discussing the LDS. Anyway, thanks for the tip.

 

[Javl]

Thanks. I’ll check it out. What I have tried to do in educating myself is to go directly to Mormon writings, such as “Apostasy and Restoration” which was actually sent to me by the young woman who recently converted. That one article has given me enough to chew on for the forseeable future. It would take a book to adequately refute the beliefs stated there. I have come to the conclusion that we speak entirely different languages. “God” to a Catholic, or any other Christian does not mean the same thing as “God” to a Mormon. The same follows for “Jesus”, “Holy Spirit”, “Priest”, “Bishop” and so on. There is a definite lack of communication of which I’m not sure either side is really aware. But I digress, this thread is not for the purpose of discussing the LDS. Anyway, thanks for the tip.

OK on your post. If you are interested, there are some threads concerning Mormonism under The Non-Catholic Religions Forum. Check them out. There is much information from both sides there that you will find quite useful in your endeavor. If you need help in any matter please PM me, or contact the Forum Apologist. God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SteveVH]

OK on your post. If you are interested, there are some threads concerning Mormonism under The Non-Catholic Religions Forum. Check them out. There is much information from both sides there that you will find quite useful in your endeavor. If you need help in any matter please PM me, or contact the Forum Apologist. God Bless.

Yes I have seen these threads and even started one of them myself “Mormon ‘Apostasy and Restoration’”. They have all been really helpful and the reason for my conclusion that we speak in different languages. I think I understand why we never seem to get very far in the pursuit of truth when discussing Catholic vs. Mormon positions. Our words mean very different things. Thanks for your help.

 

[Monte1945]

Not true. I am going to hell because there is no salvation outside of the church - I am no longer a part of church and I am not invincibly ignorant of its teachings.

I think that might be quite an assumption which though quite popular it might not
be classified as total “truth”. There has never been any Catholic, cut in the stone
doctrine, which states that for “certainty”. Intellectually it might be supposed and
by many but there is always that part of “mystery” surrounding it that has to be
considered. And that is… you might very well be justified without going through
the procedures of any organized church… Let us not forget Bro. Dismas who
was promised paradise without any church membership or faith prior to that very
moment as he was hung and dieing a criminal execution on his cross beside our Lord…

Might I suggest some seeds of thought for you?

I must make my comments from within my Catholic teachings but I certainly do not
say that only from the doctrines of the Catholic church is there Salvation.

The Church teaches… that when Jesus died and offered his sufferings to God for
the salvation of the lost world… and it was accepted by God… God did something
for mankind… He sent every person at that time and also up to our current time and beyond until the end of time, an amount of Grace… The church calls that: Actual Grace…

We can see that statement in Hebrews 8 …" I will be to the people their God and they will be to me my people. I will write my laws in their hearts and minds and NO man
NEED say to another man or his neigbor KNOW the Lord as ALL shall know me from the least to the greatest."

God has planted his Grace in you… It is now part of what is called the essense of your humanity. Which means your “nature”… We are born with a human nature which lacked
a part of the divine nature which Adam and Eve had… After their sin the divine part of our nature was removed. But with the offering of Jesus’s life that was returned to us…
(laws written in our minds and hearts)

In the catholic church we are taught that under the water baptism is the outward act
that allows that part of divine nature to come into us…

If you were at one time a believer and you were baptised you have received that part of the divine nature and your human nature has been “infused” with the Spirit of God…

Your human nature is being affected by that divine nature and you are within God’s family
and God is revealing Himself to you through your perceptions… Your salvation is to find the revealed Christ in your life through your human senses (perceptions) and to allow that new infused nature to be. To be alive is to have activity… Your activity consists of loving those in your life with the kind of love God want you to share with them.

You are to be… and you are to devlope that spirit of God, (love) in a way to grow into
the kind of human which will glorify God. The Catholic church teaches that through
her sacraments we experience what is called “sanctifying Grace”… in that with the Graces of God from our sacraments we can grow and devleop our spirit to the imagine of Christ
himself… So we have two functions… to go with the flow of what actually Graces tell us what is truth for us. And to allow the fruits of the Holy Ghost to come out from within
our human acts…

You very well maybe doing exactly that without it being done from within any organized church here. You may be be responding to the Will of God for your from what He wants from you. I can not judge you in that…

I am an old man… and I have seen much. I have met and know some wonderful God filled people from all types of different denominations and I can not say they are not responding to what truth God is revealing too them of Him through their own denominations…

I am not judging you… but I find it very interesting that you are here among these people.
I think, but I do not know, that you are not as impartial to the Spirit of God that you “seemed” to have given from the limited words you have shared here.

I know that God is working in you… and please do not think that God is limited to being able to show Himself to you only through some organized church here on earth…

God has put part of His truth deep within you… (actual grace) and there is an image of
that truth within you and when you find Him outside of yourself you shall reconize Him
as you have had Him in your most of your life… When you find Him you shall know He is Truth and you will work out your relationship with Him between Him and you…

You are not lost and hopeless as long as you have time to discover His Truth in your life.
It might not be as anyone else… but you are loved by him and His church… and I pray
that you will open your mind and heart to having faith that He will make a way for you
to return home to Him.

I can’t say what way it will be for you… as it seems all of the apostles had their own way…
St. Paul was knocked off a horse… and zapped with a bright light until he was blinded.

I was a grown man, without any religionous back ground… and by accident I went into a church and when I heard that preacher quote some actual words of Jesus, I just KNEW his words were Truth… and it changed my life from that day to this one… over sixty years later.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna Scott:

Your experience with the Mormons struck at my heart (see my thread Mormon “Apostasy and Restoration”). I am a Catholic youth minister and am trying to recover a former student of mine who has just converted to the LDS church. I’ve been spending much time trying to educate myself about this strange religion. Your honest quest for truth is so admirable. I wish someone like you could speak with this young girl about what she is getting herself into.

Anyway, know that I am praying for you. God loves a heart that is honestly seeking him.

God bless you.

Steve,

I did not find this post, until today, when I was going back through the Thread. I am so sorry I missed it.

I’d be glad to help in any way I can. Just send me a PM and let me know how things are going for this young woman.

Anna

 

[rinnie]

When a Christian converts to another faith, such a Islam, Judaism, etc., in effect he/she is rejecting Christ. In your opinion, is salvation still possible for that person, or has that person condemned him/her self to hell, or…?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

All I know is I am Roman Catholic. I understand my faith and if I turn my back on my faith now I am putting my soul in mortal danger.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Steve,

LDS Missionaries are skilled in presenting lessons to potential converts. They know family & friends will often object to the lessons. So, early on, the missionaries present passages of Scripture such as the following:

Mark 4:13-20 (ESV):

13 And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 **The sower sows the word.

15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. **16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.

17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

The missionaries will say they are sowing the good seed of God’s Word; & objections from family and friends are the work of Satan, trying to take away the Word of God.

The following are partial quotes from Thread: LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

Most people do not discover these things before joining the Mormon church.

Click on blue arrow after my name to go to original post:

. . 4th President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, Wilford Woodruff (Served 1887–1898):
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” ( The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [1946], 212–13.)

Quotes for KathleenGee–Part 2 of 2

April 9, 1852, Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young:
"Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. . . .

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. . .

. . .It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

. . .What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

. . .Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.

. . .Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing." (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1)

More than 20 years later, BJ still claimed Adam is God.

June 8, 1873, President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City:
"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth.

Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."(The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.)
(© THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH | J. Willard Marriott Library 295 S 1500 E SLC, UT 84112-0860)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Well, that makes a different point… I must have missed that in my reading…
I have never heard of that one being brought up before…

Well, certainly there is quite a difference between Catholic doctrines and traditions
than non-catholic denominations but… I don’t think we can get a real grip on that
particular question… from the traditions of the Catholic Church or the written scriptures…

I guess one could speculate and we can mention some avenues that might aid us…

There certainly was a number of resurrestions from the scriptures and I glanced at a book
at the library at the Catholic Church I attend here… It was written of five hundred resurrections of the dead after the Apostles were long dead… I did not actually read any of it, just picked it up and read the introduction to it. I don’t recall that anyone who was ever raised from the dead… was later introducted to a state of salvation…

And of course as a Catholic we are taught to pray for the dead… but as for them receiving salvation through our prayers… I don’t recall that. Usually we pray for the souls in what we consider a state of transferring their bad habits from their mortal bodies and entering into
their heavenly state of being… known as “purgatory”… which is not a “place” as some say but a state of transition.

Other than that… I don’t have any idea. . .

Appreciate your comments.

The resurrection accounts are very interesting. I am not aware of any accounts associated with salvation or a “second chance.”

I do not know what actually happened to those people.

Javl started a Thread entitled “Resurrection” to discuss this very issue. I was hoping more people would comment on that Thread.

Here is the link:

We know from scripture that man is to die but once and that the resurrection comes at the end of time.

But what about the death and resurrection of Lazarus, Naim’s son, and the daughter of Jairus? All three had died and were resurrected by Jesus. They were not resuscitated.
They must have had to die again. Are they now subject to a second resurrection…or?

This is something to ponder on. Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

. .Hebrews 9:27 says man is appointed once to die, and after that comes judgment.

Hebrews Chapter 9 (ESV):
25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

This does not appear to be the case for those Christ raised from the dead during his ministry. They lived, died, were resurrected by Christ, and died again, to await the final resurrection–unless, something else happened, that I am not aware of.

I have had discussions with other forum members about Ezekiel 37, and was told it is not to be interpreted literally, because there is only one resurrection of the dead.

Ezekiel 37 gives an allegorical prophecy of the “valley of dry bones,” followed by an interpretation. Why would the interpretation of an allegorical prophecy, also, be allegorical? That would mean: allegorical prophecy, followed by allegorical interpretation-requiring, yet another, interpretation. That doesn’t make sense to me. God spoke to the whole house of Israel saying, “I will open your graves and raise you from your graves.” That seems very straightforward.

Ezekiel 37: 11Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.

There is a similar issue in Matthew 27. Some forum members have said the saints weren’t really resurrected-that this is allegorical. Yet every other part of Matthew 27 is usually interpreted literally.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Did Elijah literally raise the child from the dead, as told in 1 Kings?
**1 Kings 17: ** 21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s life come into him again.” 22And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Did Elisha literally raise a child from the dead as told in **2 Kings 4:32-36? . . . **

We could resume a discussion on that Thread, if you are interested.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Steve,

Example Exit Letter, when leaving the Mormon church
Link: lds-mormon.com/djexitletter.shtml

"Dave Jorgensen
Somewhere, Planet Earth.

Bishop X.
Somewhere, Planet Earth.

January 22, 2000

Dear Bishop X,

My name is Dave Jorgensen. I was born on [some date] in [some place]. I was raised as a Mormon since birth, and baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (heretofore “the LDS church”), in [some] Ward, [some] Stake, when I was 8 years old. My membership records are currently under your administration, in [another] Ward, [another] Stake.

At this time, I officially resign from the LDS church. I am no longer a member of the LDS church, and I require that my name be voluntarily removed from all LDS church membership records, to reflect this fact.

In this voluntary removal process, the LDS church must adhere to the following seven guidelines:

1. The LDS church shall NOT impugn my character, slander my good name, nor disseminate any form of speculation, misinformation, or personal comments regarding me, to anyone.
2. The LDS church shall NOT hold a church court, execute a disciplinary action, excommunicate me, or otherwise harass me, nor make any attempt thereto, since I have done nothing to warrant such an action.
3. The LDS church shall remove my name from all membership records, cancel my baptism, revoke all ordinations to church “authority”, and remove all promise of “blessings” for obedience to such.
4. The LDS church shall provide me with specific, written confirmation when this task is officially complete. This letter of confirmation will reflect that my resignation from the LDS church was not due to any pressure from or determination by LDS church authorities, but rather per my own request.
5. The LDS church shall exercise due diligence in carrying out this procedure. I hereby notify you that you have 90 days, (no later than April 30, 2000) to provide written confirmation of my voluntary removal from the LDS church. Delays beyond this may result in my engaging legal counsel to pursue other options.
6. Someday when I am deceased, the LDS church shall NOT have my body dressed in any form of LDS temple ceremony costume, nor in any type of LDS temple “garments” (ritual underclothing) at any time.
7. Related to this, the LDS church shall NOT use my name in baptismal (or other) ordinances for the dead.

Assuming you would like to know my reasons for this voluntary resignation, I will detail them in a separate letter (enclosed). In short, however, I do not believe in the religious doctrines or moral authority of the LDS church. Also, I do not find LDS history, dogma, or culture to be acceptable moral or social models for myself and for my family. Frankly, I am happier outside the LDS church, so this is an obvious choice.

In closing, I ask that you respect this resignation as an exercise of my religious rights as a United States citizen and in accordance with the LDS church’s own 11th Article of Faith. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Dave Jorgensen"

Conditions of use:
lds-mormon.com/jorgensenexitletter.shtml

Laws that protect a person’s religious freedom, include one’s right to formally resign from any religion. Continued—next post.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Steve,

We are protected by the laws of our country. We have freedom of religion, which includes the right to resign from any religion, without the religious leaders/church taking any further action against us.

The law does not allow “excommunication” or any other action against a person who has formerly resigned from a religion/church.

So, it is very important to submit a formal, written letter of resignation, when leaving the Mormon church.

The following link provides a simple summary of 2 court cases:

dailykos.com/story/2008/10/14/11624/597/670/629888
(Emphasis is mine.)

"LEGAL PRECEDENTS
There is one case in particular that has clearly established in case law a right that most of us believe we had all along: the right to simply resign from a church. A second case is important to establish the church’s vulnerability to lawsuits when they refuse to honor resignations.

GUINN V THE CHURCH OF CHRIST OF COLLINSVILLE
Final decision by the Supreme Court of Oklahoma, January 1989
Marian Guinn, a member of the Church of Christ of Collinsville, OK, hand delivered her resignation to the minister after he told her he was going to excommunicate her for fornication.

The minister refused to honor the resignation, went ahead with the ‘excommunication’ and then announced it from the pulpit. Guinn sued and was awarded $390,000. On appeal the Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that Guinn’s resignation was effective immediately and that anything the church or the minister received Guinn’s resignation was tortable.

In other words, she could sue for anything they did after she resigned. The court ruled that with her resignation Guinn withdrew her consent to being treated as a member and she withdrew her consent to being subject to church discipline.

Of extra importance is the fact that the court ruled that the right to freedom of religion also includes the right to unilaterally resign from a church.

In several subsequent court cases the Mormon church has agreed to the principles established in Guinn. They have not even attempted to argue that the principles do not apply to them.

THE NORMAN HANCOCK LAWSUIT (Mesa AZ 1985)
In 1985 the Mormon church ‘excommunicated’ Norman Hancock AFTER he submitted a letter of resignation to the church.

Hancock filed an $18 million lawsuit against the church, saying a person has a right to voluntarily resign from a church.

The suit was settled out of court and the settlement was sealed. An account on line reports that Hancock filed the suit himself, without the aid of a lawyer, after studying the Guinn case.

The same account says that church lawyers started discussing with Hancock just how much money he wanted, but he told them he didn’t want their money, that what he wanted was to have his name cleared. Church representatives agreed to change the records such that there would no longer be any record of an ‘excommuication’: the records would show that he resigned (that he asked for ‘name removal’).

. . .The Guinn and Hancock cases were the end of the era when the church told members that there was no way to stop being a member except by excommunication. The church began having a process it calls ‘name removal’.

However, the church still tells bishops and stake presidents that a member who is ‘transgressing’ should not be allowed to resign, that “name removal should not be used as a substitute for church discipline”.

If you’ve paid attention to the Guinn case, you already know that the church is wrong about that and they can be sued for ‘excommunicating’ someone who already resigned. At church headquarters they know this very well and they will usually put a quick halt to ‘discipline’ proceedings if they find out that the former members knows what his or her rights are."

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Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

Example Exit Letter, when leaving the Mormon church
Link: lds-mormon.com/djexitletter.shtml

"Dave Jorgensen
Somewhere, Planet Earth.

Bishop X.
Somewhere, Planet Earth.

January 22, 2000

Dear Bishop X,

My name is Dave Jorgensen. I was born on [some date] in [some place]. I was raised as a Mormon since birth, and baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (heretofore “the LDS church”), in [some] Ward, [some] Stake, when I was 8 years old. My membership records are currently under your administration, in [another] Ward, [another] Stake.

At this time, I officially resign from the LDS church. I am no longer a member of the LDS church, and I require that my name be voluntarily removed from all LDS church membership records, to reflect this fact.

In this voluntary removal process, the LDS church must adhere to the following seven guidelines:

1. The LDS church shall NOT impugn my character, slander my good name, nor disseminate any form of speculation, misinformation, or personal comments regarding me, to anyone.
2. The LDS church shall NOT hold a church court, execute a disciplinary action, excommunicate me, or otherwise harass me, nor make any attempt thereto, since I have done nothing to warrant such an action.
3. The LDS church shall remove my name from all membership records, cancel my baptism, revoke all ordinations to church “authority”, and remove all promise of “blessings” for obedience to such.
4. The LDS church shall provide me with specific, written confirmation when this task is officially complete. This letter of confirmation will reflect that my resignation from the LDS church was not due to any pressure from or determination by LDS church authorities, but rather per my own request.
5. The LDS church shall exercise due diligence in carrying out this procedure. I hereby notify you that you have 90 days, (no later than April 30, 2000) to provide written confirmation of my voluntary removal from the LDS church. Delays beyond this may result in my engaging legal counsel to pursue other options.
6. Someday when I am deceased, the LDS church shall NOT have my body dressed in any form of LDS temple ceremony costume, nor in any type of LDS temple “garments” (ritual underclothing) at any time.
7. Related to this, the LDS church shall NOT use my name in baptismal (or other) ordinances for the dead.

Assuming you would like to know my reasons for this voluntary resignation, I will detail them in a separate letter (enclosed). In short, however, I do not believe in the religious doctrines or moral authority of the LDS church. Also, I do not find LDS history, dogma, or culture to be acceptable moral or social models for myself and for my family. Frankly, I am happier outside the LDS church, so this is an obvious choice.

In closing, I ask that you respect this resignation as an exercise of my religious rights as a United States citizen and in accordance with the LDS church’s own 11th Article of Faith. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Dave Jorgensen"

Conditions of use:
lds-mormon.com/jorgensenexitletter.shtml

Laws that protect a person’s religious freedom, include one’s right to formally resign from any religion. Continued—next post.

Anna

Anna:

This is great information to have. I hope I see her signature on this letter sooner rather than later. You’ve been such a big help. Thank you!

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna:

This is great information to have. I hope I see her signature on this letter sooner rather than later. You’ve been such a big help. Thank you!

I didn’t have this information, when I left the Mormon church. So, I endured endless phone calls, Mormon missionaries showing up at my door, things sent to me by mail, etc.

I don’t want this young woman to go through this. I will continue to pray for her deliverance; and I will help in any way I can.

When I realized the deception of Mormonism and broke free; I felt like Christ pulled me out of a dark thicket and carried me upon His back–as a lost sheep brought back to the fold. The love of Christ is so powerful.

I am forever humbled by the experience.

Anna