Converting to Eastern Catholic from Latin Catholic

[5Loaves]

But Vatican II affects the entire Church, not just the Roman Church. If I’m correct, the effect on Eastern Churches are more positive though.

“more positive” than, Millions of Latin Catholics love the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite Holy Mass and other changes resulting from the Second Vatican Council. And clearly plenty of folks don’t like the changes. The Second Vatican Council allowed con-celebration for the Latin Church OF, a beautiful tradition which we have frequently in the ECCs. The restoration of the ancient tradition of the catechumenate has been a significant outcome of the Second Vatican Council in the Latin Church.

The Second Vatican Council clearly addressed the significance of our ancient Churches and traditions, liturgical, spiritual, sacramental and called on the Latin Church to become familiar with our venerable traditions. The Holy Fathers since then have continued to strongly encourage this. How much it trickles down to the Latin clergy and parishes is another story. In some cases how much it’s trickled down to the clergy and people of the ECCs is questionable as we hear here on the EC section of the introduction of pews in our temples, of parishes where the Divine Liturgy is spoken not chanted, where various so-called Latinizations have continued after the Council called for active restoration of our traditions.

 

[5Loaves]

It probably is. Last Sunday our Reverend Subdeacon was talking to me about “worshiping with all your senses” and it is what I appreciate about Divine Liturgy.

I almost used that phrase as it was very much what I thought of when I read your post.

 

[ConstantineTG]

“more positive” than, Millions of Latin Catholics love the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite Holy Mass and other changes resulting from the Second Vatican Council. And clearly plenty of folks don’t like the changes. The Second Vatican Council allowed con-celebration for the Latin Church OF, a beautiful tradition which we have frequently in the ECCs. The restoration of the ancient tradition of the catechumenate has been a significant outcome of the Second Vatican Council in the Latin Church.

The Second Vatican Council clearly addressed the significance of our ancient Churches and traditions, liturgical, spiritual, sacramental and called on the Latin Church to become familiar with our venerable traditions. The Holy Fathers since then have continued to strongly encourage this. How much it trickles down to the Latin clergy and parishes is another story. In some cases how much it’s trickled down to the clergy and people of the ECCs is questionable as we hear here on the EC section of the introduction of pews in our temples, of parishes where the Divine Liturgy is spoken not chanted, where various so-called Latinizations have continued after the Council called for active restoration of our traditions.

Right. Many love the OF but also many complain about it. Sadly Vatican II has been blamed too much, most of the time unfairly, for whatever wrong that goes in Church and even in society today.

But wasn’t latinization worse before Vatican II? I haven’t delved much into the history but my perception is that Vatican II is an improvement for Eastern Churches.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I almost used that phrase as it was very much what I thought of when I read your post.

And I think its very importat to me. Because I believe I have ADD, I always have a hard time focusing. But at DL everywhere I put my eyes in front, I see something that always direct my mind to God. There are no blank walls where my mind can wander off to NBA games or video games or work issues.

Great, I have something to put on my letter to the Bishop

 

[Pakesh]

The SyriaC Church has its own leadership and the Coptic Pope of Alexandria is Patriarch over the Coptic Church and also has a leadership role when it comes to the patriarchs of the Eritrean and Ethiopian Orthodox Churches (there are also Nubians under the Coptic Pope).

The Coptic Pope (who held that papal title long before the Pope of Rome did) used to be called the “New Pharaoh” and the “Ecumenical Archbishop.” He was also the first to exercise what might be called the earliest example of papal jurisdiction - the Coptic Pope had jurisdictional authority over every bishop, priest and parish of Christian Africa. The Church of Alexandria was founded by St Mark and is called the “Evangelical See.”

And EVERY pope of Alexandria since St Mark’s time has figured as a saint down to present times. Pope St Kirillos (who has yet, I believe, to be formally canonized by the Church of Egypt) is a great miracle-worker and was a very holy man in life. He rebuilt the shrine to St Menas, a patron of Egypt and was the pope of Alexandria in the time of the appearance of Our Lady of Zeitoon.

A characteristic feature of the Church of Alexandria is that her bishops and priests all carry a hand Cross at all times (and especially when meeting people). The proper way to greet a priest is to kiss the Cross he holds out and then press it to one’s forehead.

Also, the Coptic and Ethiopian Churches impose a “matab” at Baptism which is a cord on which a Cross may be hung by the Christian.

Matabs were said to have been descended from the strings of St Peter’s prayer shawl - as St Peter baptized in the river Jordan, to avoid baptizing people twice, he cut the strings from Jewish tallis-prayer shawls and tied them around people’s necks after baptizing them.

According to this tradition, the chains on which we wear our Crosses today are descended from that practice started by St Peter.

Alex

Thank you so very much for all of that information:thumbsup: Where did you learn all of that?
God Bless, Pakesh

 

[croix_de_fer]

Thanks 5Loaves!

ConstatineTG, I said I’m “ABOUT done with Novus Ordo” not “done with Novus Ordo”; and I said I’m "a LITTLE uneasy about Vatican ll not “uneasy about Vatican ll.”

A Tridentine Mass is definitely another consideration. I like Pope Benedict’s revival of the Latin Mass. I need to find a parish close to home that offers it, yet I do feel a calling for Eastern Liturgies, Canons and Rites unchanged by Vatican ll.

I need to learn more about everything and pray about it before I make any decisions.

Also… thanks, Pakesh!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks 5Loaves!

ConstatineTG, I said I’m “ABOUT done with Novus Ordo” not “done with Novus Ordo”; and I said I’m "a LITTLE uneasy about Vatican ll not “uneasy about Vatican ll.”

A Tridentine Mass is definitely another consideration. I like Pope Benedict’s revival of the Latin Mass. I need to find a parish close to home that offers it, yet I do feel a calling for Eastern Liturgies, Canons and Rites unchanged by Vatican ll.

I need to learn more about everything and pray about it before I make any decisions.

Also… thanks, Pakesh!

Didn’t Vatican II allow for the vernacular in the Eastern Liturgy? Or was this a practice from long ago? Because I was speaking with one of the elder parishioners at my UGCC parish and he was telling me about that in the past they use only Church Slavonic, then he went to a place where there are no UGCC parishes and had to attend Latin Mass. Then at one point the Mass was changed to English. When he moved back home, the Divine Liturgy also changed from Slavonic to Ukrainian.

 

[5Loaves]

Didn’t Vatican II allow for the vernacular in the Eastern Liturgy? Or was this a practice from long ago? Because I was speaking with one of the elder parishioners at my UGCC parish and he was telling me about that in the past they use only Church Slavonic, then he went to a place where there are no UGCC parishes and had to attend Latin Mass. Then at one point the Mass was changed to English. When he moved back home, the Divine Liturgy also changed from Slavonic to Ukrainian.

ECs and Orthodox parishes have had the DL in the vernacular of their home lands. Many English speaking parishes now have a mix of the the old vernacular language and the new. My EC parish and the Russian Orthodox parish I go to at times both typically have a mix of old Church Slavonic and English in the litrugies, a reflection of our churches in the diaspora/expansion.

In 2007 the Ruthenian Metropolitan Basil Schott, Archbishop of Pittsburgh promulgated a major revision of two of the major Divine Liturgies (Chrysostom and Basil). The Melkite Eparchy of Newton has a final draft of a new revision. Judging from the on line responses there is a lot of upset about the revisions in the Ruthenian revision. I haven’t seen much about the Melkite revision yet.

My parish I think uses an OCA version for both the old Church Slavonic and the English. When our priest also launches into Arabic it is likely from an unrevised Melkite DL.

I have a beautiful CD of the Greek Orthodox DL in English (I don’t hear much English when I’m at the local Greek Orthodox church but wanted the Greek music with the English,) When they chant “Holy God, Holy Strong, Holy Immortal One have mercy on us” it just sounds totally weird to me.

 

[Aramis]

Didn’t Vatican II allow for the vernacular in the Eastern Liturgy? Or was this a practice from long ago? Because I was speaking with one of the elder parishioners at my UGCC parish and he was telling me about that in the past they use only Church Slavonic, then he went to a place where there are no UGCC parishes and had to attend Latin Mass. Then at one point the Mass was changed to English. When he moved back home, the Divine Liturgy also changed from Slavonic to Ukrainian.

Some Eastern Catholic eparchies in the US have approved use of the vernacular since the 1950’s. The English was approved for the Ruthenians by 1956. (So says my old blue pewbook, which was the mid-80’s reprint of the 1956 Levkulic.) I know several who switched rites before V II to have some of the liturgy in English; they say very few sung the whole in English, but many would do Slavonic and English mixed. I know personally that mixed liturgies continued well into the 1990s.

The Orthodox in the US have had English translations since Hapgood’s was published (with approval for use) in 1922. , 1922Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church

 

[ConstantineTG]

Okay, thanks! That is what I have always thought but a conversation with someone from the UGCC parish made me assume the change was made in conjunction with V2

 

[ConstantineTG]

Here’s another question. Do I have to take my family with me or is it just me? For children, is it automatic?

 

[Aramis]

Here’s another question. Do I have to take my family with me or is it just me? For children, is it automatic?

Per the CCEO, children under 14 go east with Dad. Later children are “born” into the new church sui iuris of Dad. Older children would need to switch enrollment by their own volition.

Dad can voluntarily let children be enrolled in a different ritual church if Mom is of that church…

Mom switching has little to no impact if Dad is alive. If dad isn’t alive, isn’t Catholic or Orthodox, or isn’t known, then under 14 switch with mom.

Also note: children under 14 can switch back at 14 if they so desire.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Per the CCEO, children under 14 go east with Dad. Later children are “born” into the new church sui iuris of Dad. Older children would need to switch enrollment by their own volition.

Dad can voluntarily let children be enrolled in a different ritual church if Mom is of that church…

Mom switching has little to no impact if Dad is alive. If dad isn’t alive, isn’t Catholic or Orthodox, or isn’t known, then under 14 switch with mom.

Also note: children under 14 can switch back at 14 if they so desire.

Thanks! I don’t think my wife cares too much which sui juris she belongs to as long as she’s Catholic
I might be the only one making an application

 

[zarthan]

It probably is. Last Sunday our Reverend Subdeacon was talking to me about “worshiping with all your senses” and it is what I appreciate about Divine Liturgy. The front of the church is nothing but icons, so when worshiping all you see is Our Lord Jesus and the Theotokos and the saints and many events from Scripture. So thats visual. Theres the incense, so thats smell. Hearing, I think it helps our Reverend Subdeacon is an excellent singer. Taste, receiving the Eucharist under both kids is indeed a fuller sign of the Sacrament.

I really feel different after Divine Liturgy. Comparing my feeling after my second EF Mass and my second DL, it was a world of difference. Also, it was a blessing that I was received so warmly in the parish. I’ve never had anyone come to me so warmly. Even when I came back for my second DL, the priest was by the entrance, I greeted him and he said, “hey, I’m glad you came back.” That is why I’m feeling that this is where God wants me to be.

Can you please tell me what Eastern Church you are referring to? I attended a Russian Orthodox funeral once, and loved the chanting of the entire liturgy. (I don’t even know if Russian Orthodox are Catholic). I am ignorant about the difference between Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

Thanks for any reply

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can you please tell me what Eastern Church you are referring to? I attended a Russian Orthodox funeral once, and loved the chanting of the entire liturgy. (I don’t even know if Russian Orthodox are Catholic). I am ignorant about the difference between Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.

Thanks for any reply

I was at a Byzantine Rite Ukrainian Catholic Church. The Russian Church is also Byzantine Rite. Since the liturgical tradition is Byzantine, the Divine Liturgy is nearly identical. I guess the only difference between a Catholic and Orthodox service would be that part that you pray for the Pope. I suspect the Orthodox will be praying for the Ecumenical Patriarch instead.

 

[Vico]

Here’s another question. Do I have to take my family with me or is it just me? For children, is it automatic?

If you do request a transfer and it is accepted, then it is good to know that one can adopt the norms for feast days and penenance, of the Church sui iuris of either Catholic spouse. Also the children may be of either Church sui iuris (with agreement) and of multiple Church sui iuris in one family also. For example there is a tradition of the Ukrainians that the males, in a mixed Church family, follow the father and the females follow the mother. There are more restrictions regarding matrimony in the Eastern Catholic Churches than in the Latin Catholic Church, e.g., regarding impediments, marriage in the ritual of the father’s Church, marriage must be blessed by a priest (not witnessed by a deacon).

CCEO 883 §2. In families in which the parents are enrolled in different Churches sui iuris, it is permitted to observe the norms of one or the other Church, in regard to feast days and days of penance.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If you do request a transfer and it is accepted, then it is good to know that one can adopt the norms for feast days and penenance, of the Church sui iuris of either Catholic spouse. Also the children may be of either Church sui iuris (with agreement) and of multiple Church sui iuris in one family also. For example there is a tradition of the Ukrainians that the males, in a mixed Church family, follow the father and the females follow the mother. There are more restrictions regarding matrimony in the Eastern Catholic Churches than in the Latin Catholic Church, e.g., regarding impediments, marriage in the ritual of the father’s Church, marriage must be blessed by a priest (not witnessed by a deacon).

CCEO 883 §2. In families in which the parents are enrolled in different Churches sui iuris, it is permitted to observe the norms of one or the other Church, in regard to feast days and days of penance.

We are married in the Latin Rite by a priest.

Is there a simpler CCEO online? The only one I saw isn’t as organized as well as the Code of Canon Laws, which is categorized, rather than just straight text and numbering.

 

[Aramis]

We are married in the Latin Rite by a priest.

Is there a simpler CCEO online? The only one I saw isn’t as organized as well as the Code of Canon Laws, which is categorized, rather than just straight text and numbering.

The only english version I’ve found online is poorly organized… intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

But that’s because, in truth, the Latin original is organized that way.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The only english version I’ve found online is poorly organized… intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

But that’s because, in truth, the Latin original is organized that way.

I think thats the exact one I am referring to.

 

[5Loaves]

The only english version I’ve found online is poorly organized… intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

But that’s because, in truth, the Latin original is organized that way.

There is this version of the CCEO, but I prefer to use the one you’ve linked to.