Converts should just "sit down and shut up"?

[CTBcin]

I’m a convert and I’ve never gotten a reaction like that, although I’ve heard about others who have.

Most cradle Catholics I talk to are impressed, because they’re often surprised about how knowledgeable I am about the faith. (Though the more I go deeper in my faith, I realize that it is indeed quite a limited knowledge!)

I think that some have this reaction because converts are so passionate about their faith and want to deepen their faith lives, as well as usually following all the teachings of the Church. On the other hand, (some) cradle Catholics are a little lukewarm or don’t accept everything about their faith. So perhaps those cradle Catholics feel a little threatened that the converts are “more Catholic” than they are.

I really don’t think that any devout, passionate cradle Catholic would have such a negative reaction to converts.

 

[TheMortenBay]

I have wondered if there could be a “niche” of sorts in the Catholic Church, perhaps an “evangelical rite” that resembles, let’s say, the worship of Christians such as Baptists, Church of God (all of them, there are several), Mennonites, and so on, to the extent it still can and remain faithful to Catholicism. I have in mind, for instance, a simplified “Lord’s Supper”, great emphasis on Bible study, preaching and evangelism, traditional evangelical hymnody, and an attenuated devotion to Mary and the saints, just enough to remain safely orthodox.

Everything you say here reminds me of the Church Post-Vatican II and the Mass of Paul VI. I’m not one of those saying the new Mass is protestant, but to deny that it was altered, among other things, to make it easier for protestants to convert is being wilfully ignorant if you ask me.

Contrast this with the type of convert who joins the Catholic Church and then starts complaining about everything from Marian devotion to the music at Mass, and asking why Catholics don’t do things like their previous Protestant church. Most Catholics hear that and think, “Why don’t you just get back where you came from?”

I’ve never experienced this with converts around my own age (I’m 25), though I’ve seen the opposite from cradle Catholics from my parents generation. One lady talked like she wanted to shake me when I said there was a difference between the TLM and the new Missal. She said she was very much in favour of women priests. And I sat there thinking: Why do you stay? Why don’t you become protestant or Anglican or something.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I really don’t think that any devout, passionate cradle Catholic would have such a negative reaction to converts.

That’s true. I even feel gripped by a sense of gratitude to have been born into a holy family because what if I hadn’t and didn’t find my way into the Church eventually? I see people that have done that to have trust, openness to grace, honesty, courage. Could I have had all those traits in a different environment? I don’t know.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I have wondered if there could be a “niche” of sorts in the Catholic Church, perhaps an “evangelical rite” that resembles, let’s say, the worship of Christians such as Baptists, Church of God (all of them, there are several), Mennonites, and so on, to the extent it still can and remain faithful to Catholicism. I have in mind, for instance, a simplified “Lord’s Supper”, great emphasis on Bible study, preaching and evangelism, traditional evangelical hymnody, and an attenuated devotion to Mary and the saints, just enough to remain safely orthodox.

Tanker-trucks full of ink have been spilled on this subject, and I am not going to try and re-invent the wheel regarding it. The Novus Ordo (or Ordinary Form, as some prefer) may well make it easier for some Protestants to convert. I proposed the idea of “attenuated devotion” to Mary and the saints because I can tell you, having grown up in a place where evangelicals predominated, that is something totally, totally foreign to them.

 

[TheMortenBay]

I proposed the idea of “attenuated devotion” to Mary and the saints because I can tell you, having grown up in a place where evangelicals predominated, that is something totally, totally foreign to them.

Yeah. I guess in that regard it’s easier with atheists. All my friends just think I’m crazy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve never experienced this with converts around my own age (I’m 25),

There have been numerous threads by Protestant converts on the forum complaining about many different aspects of the Catholic church from prayers to Mariology to confession to hymns to not allowing Protestants communion, and so on, and in some cases regretting their conversions, threatening to go back to the Protestant church, or already having gone to a Protestant church and making a speech about why they went.

The “women priests” issue coming from a Catholic is not the same thing as wanting to be Protestant. There are a lot of practical reasons why people want to change the priesthood right now, one being that there aren’t enough priests in many areas because men aren’t stepping up to the plate, another being that many priests turned out to be bad apples who committed sexual abuse, covered it up, or otherwise broke their vows (for instance by having consensual affairs or committing financial improprieties). So you will find people who want married priests or women priests in order to provide better leadership for the Church. It’s not a case of “the Episcopalians have it so why don’t we.”

 

[TheMortenBay]

I agree with everything you say here.
Age is difficult on these forums, and in general I don’t take this sample as representative.

The “women priests” issue coming from a Catholic is not the same thing as wanting to be Protestant.

I agree. It’s not. It’s just very much the reverse reason I became Catholic. The Catholic Church still holds onto Tradition whereas so many denominations don’t.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Catholics congregations generally just don’t seem to enjoy singing at Mass, and I can never figure it out. A few people will quietly/timidly try to sing the hymns, and the rest don’t even bother - at least in most of the parishes I have been to.

You are so right! It’s the ONE thing I miss from back in my old Lutheran days. The whole congregation sang till the rafters shook and the windows rattled! Last Christmas season, I went with a friend to a Lutheran church for “an evening of Christmas music.” No church service, so I felt it was ok to go. There was a wonderful group playing a variety of instruments and singing, and then there was a few songs that were sing-alongs. It was just so convivial and enthusiastic and inspirational–and LOUD!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You weren’t alive during the time period when the Catholic Church was throwing tradition into the trash bin right and left. The traditions of the Church have largely been preserved by a subgroup of Catholics who were interested in keeping them.
I am also referring to many traditions in addition to the Latin Mass. Such as the Rosary, Marian devotion generally, traditional-looking churches, old school organ hymns as well as chant, Eucharistic Adoration, processions, the St. Michael Prayer, etc.
I’m actually surprised we still have a mostly single and celibate priesthood to be honest

 

[TheMortenBay]

You’re right. I wasn’t alive then. I would probably not have converted if I had been.
One of the things I really treasure in the Catholic Church is that even though I only joined a little over a year ago, I am as completely a member as somebody who’s always been Catholic. I’m so happy that the experience of the OP has never been mine.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Your experience vs. his could be due to the luck of the draw in who you meet, but it could also be a personality issue.

Two people can ask the exact same question, but one will ask more diplomatically or be aware of the cues the other person is giving off. This can result in the two people getting a completely different reaction.
As I said above, some people also just ask a lot of questions and that can annoy people after a while.

 

[TheMortenBay]

I’m actually surprised we still have a mostly single and celibate priesthood to be honest

Thank God for that. I know this may be a part of my personal calling and “one can always choose to be celibate”, but I truly believe it’s intrinsically bound to the Priesthood and that not many priests would choose to be celibate if given the choice.

 

[Peeps]

Sometimes people who are new to something (whether it’s a religion, a political philosophy, or even just a hobby) tend to go a little overboard in their enthusiasm.

I agree with this!

I think that some of the direct sales companies make use of this to recruit people and motivate them to sell, sell, sell. The company makes everything so exciting and hope-filled for the new recruit, and as you say, that’s all they can talk or think about.

The problem with this is that eventually the newbie comes back to Planet Earth and often ends up leaving the company.

Perhaps that’s one reason why the OPs friends and acquaintances seemed to be wet-blanketing his zeal–they have seen it happen before, when a new convert is uber-enthusiastic at first, but eventually the realities of daily life crowd out all the good feelings, the new becomes the ordinary, and sadly, some converts think that it was all just feelings–so they gradually fall away.

There’s a balance. I know a lot of you distrust Campus Crusade for Christ, but honestly, one of the most brilliant things they ever came up with was the Fact-Faith-Feeling Train illustration, and it has been a life philosophy of mine for more than 50 years.

The engine that pulls you through life is your FACTS–Christianity is REAL, not someone’s made up fantasy, and there are plenty of facts to substantiate Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity, and pull it through all of universe history.

The coal car, right behind the engine, is filled with the FAITH that keeps the engine running. After all, FACTS don’t go anywhere unless FAITH fuels them. There are many people who believe that Jesus is God and that the Church is His family, but they don’t have any FAITH in Him or His Church–they just accept the FACT as “true,” but really don’t care and these FACTS do not change their lives in any way.

Finally, the caboose travels along after the FACTS and FAITH and carries the FEELINGS–not necessary for the train to run, but often a by-product of knowing the facts and having faith.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Perhaps that’s one reason why the OPs friends and acquaintances seemed to be wet-blanketing his zeal–they have seen it happen before, when a new convert is uber-enthusiastic at first, but eventually the realities of daily life crowd out all the good feelings, the new becomes the ordinary, and sadly, some converts think that it was all just feelings–so they gradually fall away.

I don’t think that was the case at all. I was asking questions and pointing out logical conclusions, and this wasn’t always well-received. It reminded them that their thinking wasn’t correct, and that the pet assumptions that made their lives easier couldn’t be defended in the light of Catholic truth and tradition.

To use a secular analogy, immigrants who come to the United States aren’t well-received if they point out contradictions in American life. You are expected to “get with the program”, don’t question our ways, and we like it when immigrants tell us how wonderful we are and how much better our country is, than where they came from. The law of Jante at work, if you will.

For instance, my (ex-) wife came to this country and retained many of the ways and attitudes of her upbringing in Poland. I told her “you be you, you’re fine the way you are, if this is supposed to be a ‘free country’, you can like or dislike whatever you wish, question things as you see fit”. It might not come across in this forum, but in actual practice, I am a very liberal and tolerant person. I welcome individual points of view even when I do not agree with them. I did warn her, though, that not everybody in this country thinks like that. If you challenge American ways, it won’t be well-liked. You are expected to be so, so, thankful that you are here, and to embrace totally “the American way of life”. She was too honest to do this, and I applaud this. Not everyone does.

 

[LawyersGunsAndMoney]

I don’t think that was the case at all. I was asking questions and pointing out logical conclusions, and this wasn’t always well-received. It reminded them that their thinking wasn’t correct, and that the pet assumptions that made their lives easier couldn’t be defended in the light of Catholic truth and tradition

What was the context for these discussions? I’m sure this wasn’t your intention, but maybe it came off as though you were acting as some sort of self appointed inquisitor? If this was like casual chatting after Mass, people might have been like, “who is this guy grilling me over papal pronouncements from the 1700s when I’m trying to relax with my coffee?”

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I don’t think that was the case at all. I was asking questions and pointing out logical conclusions, and this wasn’t always well-received. It reminded them that their thinking wasn’t correct, and that the pet assumptions that made their lives easier couldn’t be defended in the light of Catholic truth and tradition

It was in private discussions where it was clear that raising issues such as this was appropriate, both with priests and with laypeople. I did not bring up the thrice-defined dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus over the coffee and chocolate eclairs in the social hall.

At Traditional Latin Mass parishes and chapels, people thrive on such discussions, even over snacks in the fellowship hall. But those are intentional communities, not mainstream parishes. An entirely different environment.

 

[LawyersGunsAndMoney]

It was in private discussions where it was clear that raising issues such as this was appropriate, both with priests and with laypeople. I did not bring up the thrice-defined dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus over the coffee and chocolate eclairs in the social hall.

Please take this in the spirit in which it’s intended. I don’t mean this as any kind of insult. Just food for thought.

Is it possible that, without meaning to, you come across as a bit pedantic/pretentious? Sometimes the way you word things on CAF comes off as a little professorial/overly dramatic. Like, even here, referencing the “thrice defined” dogma…

Again, I’m sure that’s not your intention and it doesn’t particularly bother me, but maybe the way you’re coming across in these discussions is a little off?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Is it possible that, without meaning to, you come across as a bit pedantic/pretentious? Sometimes the way you word things on CAF comes off as a little professorial/overly dramatic. Like, even here, referencing the “thrice defined” dogma…

Thanks for the concern, but I think I’m OK. I love artful oratory and the use of words to paint vivid, precise pictures and to convey ideas clearly. I think the people here are intelligent enough to understand what I’m saying. As for the “thrice defined dogma” business, first of all, EENS is precisely that, and secondly, I intended this as a somewhat comic way to reassure the reader that no, I didn’t torment common people in a homely, informal setting.

In times past, elaborate oratory, and what to us nowadays would be endlessly tortured, run-on sentences and ideas, were prized and valued. To use a more recent example, the late Senator Robert Byrd delivered epic speeches in that legislative body, made allusions to ancient history, and so on, and the good people of West Virginia returned him to the Senate time and again. I never heard of anybody wanting to refuse the many benefits he secured for them, nor to turn away the abundant opportunities for federal employment that he created, because he was too pedantic, pretentious, professorial, or overly dramatic. Not hardly.

 

[Mintaka]

I think that a lot of this just the general bullying of people who disagree with whatever is fashionable. Older Catholics get told they are nostalgic. Younger Catholics get told they have a rosy picture of the old days because they did not live through it. Cradle Catholics get told they are discouraging conversion. New Catholics get told they are too Protestant and need to learn from cradle Catholics.

It is all the same thing – make like a mushroom and stay quiet, always in the dark.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

It is all the same thing – make like a mushroom and stay quiet, always in the dark.

Yes, and continue to let them feed you ordure