Converts: Your No. 1 stumbling block to conversion?

[lilder]

I couldn’t decide between Mary and pressure.

I love Mary for bringing Jesus to me, but for the longest time I thought Catholics held her TO high. I still held doubts about this when I came into the church. It was not until I became pregnant did I truly start relating to Mary and understand some of the church’s teaching of her.

Of course, defending myself to my Grandmother was a huge obstacle. She was anti-Catholic due to ignorance, but once I made up my mind and made “a commitment” she accepted it.

Lilder
Oh, and purgatory would be my second.

 

[Matt16_18]

Nel

*I mean if ANYONE on the planet understands all the mechanisms of sin, it’s the Catholic Church. *

Now that is a sentence that taken out of context …

 

[system]

Nel

*I mean if ANYONE on the planet understands all the mechanisms of sin, it’s the Catholic Church. *

Now that is a sentence that taken out of context …

Yeah, Matt, I know…I was thinking that when I wrote it. I didn’t want to get side-tracked with qualifications of the remark…

But ya know, Jesus said that he didn’t come for the righteous, but for sinners; that the healthy are in no need of a doctor, but the unhealthy are.

And anyone who doubts that Christ just DOTES on the Catholic Church need only look at the sinners that we’ve got to our credit…like Saint Augustine, like Saint Francis of Assisi, like a whole lot of people who were completely worldly until POW-ZAP (or moan-groan-do-I-gotta?) became great saints.

Yes, we Catholics know sin inside and out because as the Church established by Christ Himself, ours is the refuge of sinners, the whole world’s soul-doctor. The bigger a sinner you are, the more you need to Come On In! Plenty of room for sinners here, no need to shove. Our whole history is full of them, you’re nothing special - we can beat that.

If you are a big, BIG sinner, you need Christ in His fullest and unfiltered form, so you need the Catholic Church. If you are just meek and mild and never do anything wrong…well, there’s a denomination down the street that’s looking for you.

Mysterious, ain’t it? Not the kind of Church I’d arrange. I’d have only perfect people in my church, you know, as a drawing point for new members: join us - you’ll look good! But God’s ways are not our ways, and He set up a hospital for sinners, so if there are no sinners…well, it’s probably not God’s church. And if there’s a lot of sinners…well, it’s probably because there’s some real healing to be had inside, and the members are humble enough to know when they need real doctoring.

But you knew that. I’m just saying it for those who don’t.

Thanks!

 

[Della]

I voted for “the ever popular other” but “Prejudice, pressure, fear of what others would say/do if you “poped”?” Came close to the mark.

I feared, not what others would think nor because of peer pressure of the kind that fears what others will say, though. I’ll explain: I came out of a cult-like sect called the Assemblies of God to return to the Episcopal church of my childhood because I could NO LONGER stand the peer pressure to conform to their conventions disguised as living in holiness nor to being held under constant fear of being “left behind”. Anyone who has ever been involved in a cult or cult-like groups knows what I mean.

When I realized I was going to become Catholic all the old fears my sect had placed in my mind came back to haunt me. I literally shook as I went to my first RCIA meeting although I knew perfectly well by then that the Catholic Church was not “the whore of Babylon”, etc. So, it was fear that kept me out of the Church for a long time; not fear of others but fear of losing my salvation as I had been taught to believe in the AoG.

 

[Matt16_18]

But you knew that.

Yeah, I did. I think your posts are great. I want to be one of those POW-ZAP saints, instead of the moan-groan-do-I-gotta? kind of saint.

Is there a secret for doing that?

 

[Chaffa55]

I had a tough time with the sacrament of reconciliation. Here’s a narrative of what happened.

I went through RCIA in 1984-5. As Easter approached, I went to class one Thursday night, and they told us “…oh, by the way, you folks are going to go to first confession tonight…”. I was totally unprepared.

I TOTALLY FREAKED - almost considered leaving, but stumbled throught it. It was a long time before I could go back again. I don’t know if I had been woolgathering at the previous class or??? Over the next few years, our parish had communal confessions at Christmas and Easter, and that didn’t help, either.

It really took me until just a few years ago to really desire and participate in this sacrament regularly.

Phew, that’s our little secret, I’ve never told anyone else…

 

[LilyOfTheFather]

Mary was the biggest obstacle… now I love my Blessed Mother. Next came the idea that all artificial birth control was wrong… I conquered that… last was the fear that I would be ridiculed… but now it is an honour to be humiliated for the sake of God.

 

[Les_Richardson]

J_Chrysostomos:

I’m still looking into Catholicism, and this board and my Catholic friends have been helpful. I clicked on “Papal Infallibility/Magisterium” as one that I’m having difficulty with (with a corrolary being the idea that Tradition and Scripture are equal).

I have no problem with the idea of a “pope”, but I’m still unsure about the infallibility thing. Also I have no problem with Tradition being a guide but I can’t still shake my view that Scripture is above it. I’m not trying to get into an argument or anything here, as I am studying these things on my own, so I don’t need a bunch of links. God will have me where He wants me.

Hang in there. I took about a year of studying on my own and didn’t attend any RCIA class. To tell you the truth, the Catholic church was the last place I ever expected to wind up. I was raised in a Baptist home by a Baptist minister, so I had lots of Bible study. In fact, that was his ordinary way of preaching. Take a segment at a time of scripture and work his way through the New Testament and part of the Old. So I was fairly Bible literate already.

I think I had a general mental block more than anything. When we were kids were were told not to play with the Catholic kids. I’m serious. Old English-Irish prejudice? Perhaps that was the root of it. Maybe they thought we would be corrupted by the evil Catholics.

At one point in my studies I came to grips with the fact that the early church fathers were Catholic, the church was Catholic, the practices were Catholic, and in actuality, Jesus started the Catholic church. It hit me suddenly and there was a sort of mental lurch. Everything I had been raised with was suddenly suspect. That’s an uncomfortable feeling, like trying to walk on a trampoline. To this day, once in awhile I have to shake off old thought patterns.
After that, the rest fell into place. Confession was tough. But that was mostly a question of humility on my part, and that’s a constant struggle. As for infallibility, for me its a relief. I saw my father wrestle with some issues in preparing sermons and Bible studies because he was honest and took his responsibility to teach seriously. He would admit ignorance before he would knowingly lead anyone astray (within the context of his Baptist theology) That was the big issue I presented when I told my brothers I was a Catholic. How could the one Holy Spirit lead so many different denominations of Christians to such different conclusions? They all claim to interpret scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I was glad for an authority, for authentic Christianity.
I love this thread. Lots of interesting comments.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Addendum;

Not really a stumbling block, but I have real trouble understanding how a Catholic could be blase about Catholicism. As a convert I find its like exploring a huge old castle. Every time you think you’ve seen it all you find another room full of wonderful treasures, beauty you’d never even conceived of before.
And every mass the real presence of Christ touches me, sometimes consoling me, sometimes breaking and softening me, sometimes just make me peaceful.
How could I have missed Him for 46 years?

 

[dts]

I am in RCIA.

The communion of saints and the eucharist are one of the greatest attractions.

The greatest stumbling block intellectually was papal infallibility and the development of doctrine. I think I have worked through
these now.

Logically and spiritually, I know I need to focus on the Christ, the faith and true doctrine. However, I still experience some psychological resistance in part to what I view as rampant corruption within the Catholic church as evidenced by the recent sex scandals, unfaithful priests, Catholics who don’t really care about their own faith, and Catholics who support things like abortion and pro-abortion politicians.

 

[ATeNumquam]

Mijoy2:

I’d have to say moral teachings. It troubles me more then I can express that the doctrine of our faith claims the sins that the vast majority of people (Catholics included) commit nearly everyday; contraception, self-gratification (you know), and my biggest issue by far, missing a single Mass on a Sunday as MORTAL! otherwise put, capable of sending us to Hell for an eternity of horrendous torment. This is sooo troubling to me that every day I question my faith . If the only people who go to Heaven are Catholics who have not committed these sins, I’d content less then 5 percent of the population will be there. There simply has to be more to it then this. Or so I pray.

Yes, yes, Mijoy - this is a terribly important issue, and I want to start a thread about it. First, though, in keeping with the theme of this thread, it’s not the reason I had a problem entering the Church (way back in 1967). It was (1) Mary - same problems as have been outlined already, but especially (2) cowardice, pressure, etc.
I was 16 or 17, living at home in a very anti-Catholic family, knew no Catholics, and we had miserable, bitter, tearful arguments that went on and on.
Scott Hahn said his conversion was a detective story, then a horror story, then a romance story. Fore me it was all three at once. But God was “seducing” me into the Church, so this made everything else bearable (and sweet).
Tomorrow I’ll start a thread about this mortal sin question, because I think there’s some mistaken understandings there, and it needs discussing, I feel.

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A Te numquam separari permittas

 

[petra]

My biggest stumbling block to conversion, as a former Calvinist, was giving up the concept of eternal security. When I could finally accept that Christians could lose their salvation, I struggled with the relative ease that Catholicism says we can lose it. And this is an issue I still struggle with.

I believe that there are mortal sins, sins of grave matter. I understand the issue of culpability. I “get” salvation=faith with works. I “get” cooperating with God’s grace. I find the theology of Catholicism to be right on. But the application of the theology often seems legalistic. * Like Mijoy2, I am troubled by the possibility that earnest Christians fall in and out of salvation on a weekly basis. In particular, I find the idea of missing Mass without an appropriate excuse to be mortal sin, incomprehensible. Don’t get me wrong! I love Mass. I go regularly and just love it. But the legalism I often see in the Church is no different from the Mosaic Law that Jesus fulfilled. We are not under the law anymore, and St. Paul rebuked Christians for gravitating toward legalism.

When I first became a Catholic, I didn’t see this legalism. I was excited about the sacraments as God’s blessing to us. I was blessed as a Protestant and now as a Catholic, I was excited to be complete. I had my relationship with Jesus that I had had for 22 years prior, and now I was no longer on the fringe. I was in His Church. But now I see legalism everywhere! The loving Lord and friend I’ve known now appears as someone who is waiting to cast judgment on me if I don’t follow all the rules. Some of these rules seem so arbitrary. Some of them seem manmade.

God expects commitment of us in marriage and in parenting—even when spouses or kids are disrespectful, indifferent, or mean. After a long history of abuse, it may be necessary to sever relationships, but this is not done without perseverance and is only a last resort. I was in an abusive marriage for 13 years. I believe that I did not leave a day sooner than I was supposed to and it was God’s will for me to try to make the marriage work as long as I could. Why would God require more tolerance and perseverance of us toward others than He extends to us?

In light of this, it is incomprehensible to me that missing a Sunday Mass without an appropriate excuse is a mortal sin. Venial sin, yes. And missing many Sundays may result in falling away mortally. But missing once? Please! That is not the God I know.*

 

[Della]

Petra: Here are the relevant paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Sunday Obligation. Please read it carefully and prayerfully, and I’m sure you will see why the Church teaches what it does about the Sunday Obligation.

As you yourself pointed out, missing Sunday Mass leads to negligence, especially if one thinks it doesn’t matter. I hope these paragraphs help you understand why it does matter–very much indeed!

 

[Mijoy2]

petra:

In light of this, it is incomprehensible to me that missing a Sunday Mass without an appropriate excuse is a mortal sin. Venial sin, yes. And missing many Sundays may result in falling away mortally. But missing once? Please! That is not the God I know.

Petra,

Read the two posts that follow mine, from Nel. She helped me immeasurably in this regard.

Maybe this will help: No human condemns us to Hell. Gods mercy is infinite and he knows what is in our hearts, it is by this we are judged. Not how many Masses we missed with zero being the only right answer. I do see it as sinful to neglect the sabbath. When I do, for reasons that may and may not fulfill the list of valid excuses of others, I feel badly about it and ultimately confess it. I try not to miss any. However, I no longer feel that if I fall victim to a terrorist attack before I have opportunity to get to confession I am sure candidate for Hell fire. I no longer feel this way because it does not make sense. And I do not believe we have a senseless God. (after all by my esitimation I missed about 1560 Masses over the past 30 years, in the last year I have missed 1 maybe 2. I think that is an improvement).

I have hope I am judged on my sincere and strong desire to please God and my continous pursuit of growing closer and closer to Him. Not how many times I missed Mass or some other dreadful dead.

I wish I possesed the ability to be of more help to both you and I. Although I have faith in His divine mercy and His love. I do not think it is by ‘works’ that we get to Heaven, but it is by our ‘work’ to maintain a clean soul. However faulty. He came for the sinners not the righteous. I sure qualify.

Hope this doesn’t open a can of worms.

 

[petra]

Mijoy2:

Read the two posts that follow mine, from Nel. She helped me immeasurably in this regard.

Yes, I read Nel’s posts and completely agree with everything she said. What she said, “Catholics err on the side of God’s mercy without taking it for granted,” is harmonious with my understanding of Catholic theology and my understanding of a compassionate God. I wish with all my heart that what she said is true. But that perspective doesn’t square with the strong language of CCC 2181. Either missing Mass (without appropriate excuse) is a mortal sin or it isn’t.

Maybe I’m just more horrified about the prospect of being outside of God’s grace than most. It is unacceptable to me that I would EVER be outside of His grace. The idea that earnest Christians fall in and out of salvific grace all the time seems to dilute the severity of mortal sin. It also totally disregards the relationship we have as God’s children. Children are not perfect. But parents normally don’t throw them out on the street, even if they make mistakes. Neither is a marriage invalidated the instant a marriage partner betrays his spouse. The severing of those relationships occurs either from a multitude of moderate sins or perhaps one major sin. In comparing what single event it would take to sever the relationship between parent and child or between wife and husband, some of the things that the Church says instantly separates us from God’s saving grace don’t even compare.

 

[Mijoy2]

petra:

The severing of those relationships occurs either from a multitude of moderate sins or perhaps one major sin. In comparing what single event it would take to sever the relationship between parent and child or between wife and husband, some of the things that the Church says instantly separates us from God’s saving grace don’t even compare.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 times 7? I agree with your assesment Petra. I attempt to reconcile it by virtue of the fact that we have the Sacrement of Reconciliation. Thank God

 

[petra]

Della:

Petra: Here are the relevant paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Sunday Obligation. Please read it carefully and prayerfully, and I’m sure you will see why the Church teaches what it does about the Sunday Obligation.

Thank you for sharing. I agree that participating in Mass is very important, and confers important spiritual benefits to keep us strong and protect us from grave sins. I can see why the Church strongly advocates this. But, no, in reading the CCC references, it is not clear to me at all why a single error in this regard separates us from God and salvation. I do not understand at all why this is of the same gravity as murder, rape, abortion, or theft.

As you yourself pointed out, missing Sunday Mass leads to negligence, especially if one thinks it doesn’t matter.

I agree. Thinking that Sunday Mass doesn’t matter is a sin, too—a sin that is distinct and additional to the actual missing of Mass. But identifying a sin as venial rather than mortal does not imply that it doesn’t matter. It just distinguishes the severity and the consquence.

From the (name removed by moderator)ut I’ve gotten on other topics, the CCC is not considered inerrant. Someone on another thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3327 (see post #12), asked Archbishop William Levada, one of the writers of the CCC, whether the CCC was infallible and whether some teachings might be changed in the future. The Archbishop’s response was that it is not correct to say that the CCC is infallible.

Scripture, basic Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit’s unction within me, and correlating the dynamics of earthly relationships that God ordained indicate that the issue we are discussing is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.

 

[Della]

petra:

Maybe I’m just more horrified about the prospect of being outside of God’s grace than most. It is unacceptable to me that I would EVER be outside of His grace. The idea that earnest Christians fall in and out of salvific grace all the time seems to dilute the severity of mortal sin. It also totally disregards the relationship we have as God’s children. Children are not perfect. But parents normally don’t throw them out on the street, even if they make mistakes. Neither is a marriage invalidated the instant a marriage partner betrays his spouse. The severing of those relationships occurs either from a multitude of moderate sins or perhaps one major sin. In comparing what single event it would take to sever the relationship between parent and child or between wife and husband, some of the things that the Church says instantly separates us from God’s saving grace don’t even compare.

Just to clarify, when we commit grave sin it is not God who “throws us out” it is we who throw ourselves out.

And as to the Sunday Obligation not being important enough to qualify for grave matter, how about the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Surely God wouldn’t have condemned Adam and Eve and all their descendents for merely eating the wrong kind of fruit?

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. It is not for us to decide what is grave sin, but for God to tell us what it is. And God has told us through his Church.

Missing Masses of obligation deliberately and with full knowledge and consent of our wills is tantamount to saying we don’t believe that “the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church” (paragraph 2182). I know you don’t think it’s unimportant to remain faithful to Christ. The gathering of the Church for Masses of obligation is our way of saying that we do believe it is important–of the gravest importance.

I agree with you Petra that the thought of Catholics falling out of grace on a regular basis is scary. But, it ought to be. We are to keep our hearts and minds in Christ and his Church as we endeavor to become perfected in his love. We fail daily and often, but God’s sustaining grace holds us up. Only by our own actions of deliberately taking ourselves out of God’s sustaining grace by committing mortal sins do we need to fear–if we are doing our best to cooperate with the action of God’s grace in our hearts, minds and souls we obviously have no need to fear.

Don’t be afraid or overly scrupulous about such things. The Holy Spirit can be relied upon to inform our consciences if we desire to do God’s will in everything we say, do, and think. Know that God understands our weaknesses and knows who has and who hasn’t been culpable of committing grave sin. If you have any doubts or questions about it, you should consult your confessor.

 

[Della]

From the (name removed by moderator)ut I’ve gotten on other topics, the CCC is not considered inerrant. Someone on another thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3327 (see post #12), asked Archbishop William Levada, one of the writers of the CCC, whether the CCC was infallible and whether some teachings might be changed in the future. The Archbishop’s response was that it is not correct to say that the CCC is infallible.

Scripture, basic Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit’s unction within me, and correlating the dynamics of earthly relationships that God ordained indicate that the issue we are discussing is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.

You have taken the Archbishop’s words too far here. While the CCC as a document is not infallible, the teachings of the Church certainly are.

You cannot decide what is and what isn’t venial or mortal sins for yourself. That is one of the marks of Protestantism–the idea that each of us are our own Magisterium.

I think the problem you are having is one of scruples coupled with a servile fear of God. As I wrote (while you were answering my earlier post), God knows who is and who isn’t culpable of committing grave sin. Also, we have access to the sacrament of reconciliation and the guidance of our confessors to help us sort through our motives so that we know if we are culpable and what we can do in the future to avoid committing venial or mortal sins.

Trust Christ’s Church, his Body in these things and you will find peace of heart and soul. The more you take on the mind of the Church the more you will take on the mind of Christ, and so be formed in his image of holiness and love.

 

[ATeNumquam]

Like Nel, I was so troubled by what Mijoy2 said earlier in this thread about the apparent ease of falling into mortal sin, that I wanted to start a separate thread on it, because it had sort of wandered away from the original topic of the thread. However, while I’ve been asleep on the other side of the world, Nel and others have said here everything I wanted to say but SOOO much better!
Bless all your loving hearts!!

I’ve been struck, reading through posts in these forums, by how easy some seem to think it is to fall into mortal sin, and I honestly question that, in the case of a devout, practising Catholic who is committed to, and oriented towards God.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says (#1855)

“Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it TURNS MAN AWAY FROM GOD who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior god to Him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it”
#1857 "For a sin to be mortal, three conditions MUST TOGETHER BE MET. “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent”
#1859 “…it implies a consent SUFFICIENTLY DELIBERATE TO BE A PERSONAL CHOICE”

(emphasis mine)

In the light of this, I make bold to suggest that most of the people who are posting in these forums aren’t all that likely to be committing mortal sins frequently!

It’s also worth reading the paragraphs on “Masturbation” in the CCC (see index) if you aren’'t already familiar with them!! There is some comfort there for us in our weakness.Not that I’m implying we shouldn’t do our level best to conquer it with God’s help.
The mercy and wisdom I’ve encountered in the confessional since my first distant day as a Catholic have left me in no doubt that the Church is a loving Mother whose embrace is warm and welcoming: a sure sign to me that this is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church I was seeking .
All the scandals in the world will never make me doubt that for a nanosecond.

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A Te numquam separari permittas - never let me be separated from You