Converts: Your No. 1 stumbling block to conversion?

[ATeNumquam]

Nel:

If you are a big, BIG sinner, you need Christ in His fullest and unfiltered form, so you need the Catholic Church. If you are just meek and mild and never do anything wrong…well, there’s a denomination down the street that’s looking for you.

.

QUOTE]

Oh Nel, I just loved that whole post!!
It reminds me of my very first experience of going to Mass. I was 17, living at home, studying Catholicism, arguing with my parents, etc etc. I persuaded by mother to drop me off at the Catholic church on her way to the Anglican 8.00 a.m. communion service. She grudgingly did so, muttering and snarling! It was mid-winter, freezing and dark.
I crept into the back pew - never been in a Catholic church in my life - very nervous. The church was full. EVERY sort of individual was there - people from the university, students, professors, “working-class” people, babies, kids, old folk. SO different from the respectable, middle-aged well dressed bunch at the Anglican church I used to attend.
Beside me in the back pew was an old guy who had had too much to drink. He smelt strongly of alcohol and was swaying in the pew and talking to himself. My Protestant self briefly recoiled. Then - like a revelation I SAW clearly that this was exactly how it should be. He had as much right to be there as anyone. This was the true Church - it embraced saints and sinners!! This man didn’t need a entrance ticket saying he was fit to be there. He wouldn’t have dared to darken the doors of any other denomination. And what’s more, no one looked around at him disapprovingly. I was deeply impressed, and that carried more weight with me than my slight disappointment with the messy half Latin, half English, recent- post-Vatican 2 liturgy. I felt at home, and that’s never changed.

---

A Te numquam separari permittas

 

[Makerteacher]

Coming from a fairly loving home with a kind and attentive Father figure, and having been raised as a sort-of Episcopalian, accepting the Pope as Big Cheese Bossman was pretty easy for me. I had a MUCH harder time with Mary, both for doctrinal reasons and because of the difficulties in my own mother-daughter relationship. That particular hurdle is one I continue to overcome, with increasing success, both with Mary and my earthly Mama too.

But my biggest obstacle was OBEDIENCE. In the poll I selected “moral teachings” as coming the closest to that. I was at first appalled to learn that the Church says we have to obey her teachings whether or not we understand or agree with them, as we form our consciences. That included birth control, mandatory Sunday Mass attendance, the all male priesthood, etc etc. Basically I wanted to have all the glorious history and deep symbolism of the Church, but not have to sacrifice my own supreme view of what “should” be required of me. In other words, I was suffering from a major case of PRIDE!!!

In the years since then, I have learned many things, not the least of which is that I am often dead wrong when I am sure that I am dead right. Once I let go of my self-righteousness and pride, and embraced the humility of obedience, (and for me it was hunmiliating in some cases) I got a better understanding of things. I saw how little I knew, when I thought I knew all that was important. Sort of the classic, “The more you know, the more you know you DON’T know.”

I have also discovered, through the obedient practice of either NFP or no birth control whatsoever, that the Church is right there too. I would not have learned that without living it. The same for Sunday Mass attendance (I go daily now), and the all male priesthood, etc etc etc. (I never lived that: I’m a Mommy, but I think you all know what I mean)

I suppose in a way this is a questions of authority: accepting the authority not of the Pope so much but of the Church Herself. I continue to learn and grow in this area, and continue to thank Jesus for bringing me Home to Him through the Catholic Church ofver 20 years ago. My family of origin thinks I am nuts: :whacky: but they also know and have said that they see I am happy, whole, and raising a well-rounded family within the confines of this Faith.

Great question, BTW.

 

[Bigwill]

This poll doesn’t really leave room for the convert from agnosticism or atheism. It assumes that one matures from a protestant notion of Christianity to full Catholic Christianity.

For me, the biggest stumbling block was the divinity of Jesus. Everything fell into place, if that man 2000 years ago was God. The Church, the Eucharist, Mary and the Saints, everything fell into place. The lynchpin was the divinity of Christ. It was something I struggled with well into my RCIA classes. I was “Catholic” well before I was “Christian” (if that makes sense to you).

 

[dpillie]

I voted for Mary and the communion of saints… mainly because my Catholic friends did a poor job of describing what they meant by praying to them. Once I started investigating what they meant, I learned it was common practice to say “praying to” when they mean “ask them to pray for me” I grew up in a “low” Episcopal church, which means that it was not as similar to a Catholic mass as some Episcopal church services are, and it was a country church with a very small congregation. I was confirmed in the Catholic faith on Easter Vigil 1999 and have been active in the Church since!

 

[chnchris]

Nel:

I’d like to know what was the hardest obstacle or teaching of the Catholic Church for converts to the faith, and how people got beyond that particular thing.

  Even as a UMC pastor, my wife and i learned how to
  pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy chaplet from watching
  EWTN, we became closet rosary prayers. But still, i was
  not able to grasp this devotion given to Mary by many
  Catholics, i now really wanted to convert, but just could
  not " get past " this hang-up. 

  One night at a John Michael Talbot concert in Syracuse
  ( we belonged to his community ), i spotted a Marian
  alcove inside the Catholic church. Without thinking i felt
  drawn to kneel (eek!) before the statue of the Virgin; i
  said, " Mary, i so want to understand your role in the 
  Church and love your Son very much. " Immediately, i
  heard interiorly, " Chris, I am your Mother. " i then knew.
  i wept with love, i was now Catholic in my heart.

 

[chnchris]

Nel:

How do you come to know Mary? How do you come to love her? Is it just a gift? It’s actually quite painful not to ‘know’ and ‘love’ Mary the way other people seem to do!
What’s the secret?

Ask for her help. See my post # 64.

 

[BILL_BRADLEY]

Although Baptized Catholic, I drifted for many years living a life of hedonism. When I had seen God as a God who would be integrally involved in my life, I wanted a realtionship with him on my own terms. I spent time in the Mormon, Lutheran and Angligan communities. Marriage, vocation, and understanding was a matter between me and my God. It wasn’t until I could put asside the arrogance of my life and perception of the importance of self that I started on the road home to Rome. Everyday is still a struggle with my pride, arrogance, and self but with the grace of God and the prayers of the faithful, I will never stray again and join you all in our final reunification of our family in Heaven.

 

[Les_Richardson]

chnchris:

One night at a John Michael Talbot concert in Syracuse
( we belonged to his community ), i spotted a Marian
alcove inside the Catholic church. Without thinking i felt
drawn to kneel (eek!) before the statue of the Virgin; i
said, " Mary, i so want to understand your role in the
Church and love your Son very much. " Immediately, i
heard interiorly, " Chris, I am your Mother. " i then knew.
i wept with love, i was now Catholic in my heart.

Beautiful.

 

[chnchris]

Chaffa55:

I went through RCIA in 1984-5. As Easter approached, I went to class one Thursday night, and they told us “…oh, by the way, you folks are going to go to first confession tonight…”. I was totally unprepared.
I TOTALLY FREAKED - almost considered leaving, but stumbled throught it. It was a long time before I could go back again. I don’t know if I had been woolgathering at the previous class or??? Over the next few years, our parish had communal confessions at Christmas and Easter, and that didn’t help, either.
It really took me until just a few years ago to really desire and participate in this sacrament regularly.
Phew, that’s our little secret, I’ve never told anyone else…

   Pretty hard to examine your conscience in shock,eh?!

   i made my 1st confession at 43, i was nervous,
   although i had been receiving private instruction for
   several months and thus knew the priest as a
   friend. 

   The grace of the sacrament was palpable, i could
   feel a tremendous weight lift off of me ....His yoke
   is easy.....i seemed to walk on air as i left.

   Still, going to confession has not been easy, especially
   since i seemed to always be confessing the same sin.
   It was embarrassing. Then i had a simple revelation,
   God already knew my sins, He only desired my 
   humility, obedience, and sincerity in loving Him.

   Am i perfect? Of course not! But each time i open
   my soul to His mercy and gracious love, i draw closer
   to Him who loved me 1st.

 

[chnchris]

     Can you explain this more? How about following
     Jesus, man and God orr any of the saints.

 

[chimakuni]

“Well, if we had gotten divorsed he would really have had something to blame the Church for. Now I have an opportunity to let him see what our Faith is all about.”

Sgt Pat - I know that your husband will not have your faith to use as a stumbling block! I admire you for being so Christ-like in your commitment to your marriage and family. Please do check out Mary’s Mantle - those of us who are on it, support one another and cheer one another one in the face of difficulties of “mixed” marriages. A thank you again to Nel for recommending Mary’s Mantle.

God Bless

 

[petra]

Della:

Just to clarify, when we commit grave sin it is not God who “throws us out” it is we who throw ourselves out.

Yes, I understand that. We could also say that if parents sever their relationship with a teenager that fails to show up for dinner on time, it was the teenager that threw himself out on the streets and became homeless. But “Who threw out who” is just semantics. The real issue is determining the severity of the action and whether the home environment is that of love or legalism.

And as to the Sunday Obligation not being important enough to qualify for grave matter, how about the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? . . . It is not for us to decide what is grave sin, but for God to tell us what it is. And God has told us through his Church.

Yes, God clearly told Adam and Eve that eating of the fruit was a grave matter: “you shall surely die.” No question.

I don’t have any desire to decide for myself what grave sin is. I only want to obey God. But I have to use discernment about what I hear from people and the Church is full of people. The fact that the Church is full of imperfect people or sometimes makes mistakes does not nullify Christ’s promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail against her. I love the Catholic Church and believe she has maintained the integrity of the faith exceptionally well. This was the reason I converted.

But some of the Church’s rules on obligation seem arbitrary and manmade. A few years ago, I called my parish to make an appointment with the priest. It was a few days before New Year’s day. The answering machine picked up and there was a message stating that Jan. 1 was no longer a Holy Day of Obligation. I don’t know when the Church decided it wasn’t, but at one time, I guess it was mortal sin to miss Mass on Jan 1. Now it isn’t.

Isn’t sin, sin? How can the Church suddenly declare something to be sin (mortal sin, no less!), or conversely say it isn’t? Somehow, I think God’s view of sin doesn’t change. Morality is not relative. Neither is Truth.

Missing Masses of obligation deliberately and with full knowledge and consent of our wills is tantamount to saying we don’t believe that “the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church”

1 Thess. 5:17 says we should pray without ceasing. Is it not a graver matter to go for longer than 1 day without praying? I agree that weekly Mass is very, very important. I still don’t understand why failure in this regard is equal to murder, adultery, assault or theft.

The Holy Spirit can be relied upon to inform our consciences if we desire to do God’s will in everything we say, do, and think.

I do rely on Him heavily.

Peace to you.

 

[system]

Bigwill:

This poll doesn’t really leave room for the convert from agnosticism or atheism. It assumes that one matures from a protestant notion of Christianity to full Catholic Christianity.

Each conversion is as unique as the person converting! Hence the ‘ever-popular other’!

Thanks for all these insightful comments!

Nel

 

[chnchris]

dts:

I am in RCIA.
I still experience some psychological resistance in part to what I view as rampant corruption within the Catholic church as evidenced by the recent sex scandals, unfaithful priests, Catholics who don’t really care about their own faith, and Catholics who support things like abortion and pro-abortion politicians.

Although full of sinners, The Church is Holy.

 

[Della]

But some of the Church’s rules on obligation seem arbitrary and manmade. A few years ago, I called my parish to make an appointment with the priest. It was a few days before New Year’s day. The answering machine picked up and there was a message stating that Jan. 1 was no longer a Holy Day of Obligation. I don’t know when the Church decided it wasn’t, but at one time, I guess it was mortal sin to miss Mass on Jan 1. Now it isn’t.

Isn’t sin, sin? How can the Church suddenly declare something to be sin (mortal sin, no less!), or conversely say it isn’t? Somehow, I think God’s view of sin doesn’t change. Morality is not relative. Neither is Truth.

Did the message on the machine actually say that Jan 1 is no longer a holy day of obligation? Or did the message say that the obligation had been deferred because it fell close to a Sunday or on a Sunday? Or didn’t it explain that? The bishop has the right to change or defer holy days of obligation except for Sundays. Jan. 1, 2004 will probably be deferred because it falls on Sunday Vigil. I know it can be confusing, which is why we ought to be sure we know why something has been changed and if it was lawful to do so before saying that something illicit or invalid was done by changing or deferring a holy day of obligation.

Missing Masses of obligation deliberately and with full knowledge and consent of our wills is tantamount to saying we don’t believe that “the Sunday Eucharist is a testimony of belonging and of being faithful to Christ and to his Church”

1 Thess. 5:17 says we should pray without ceasing. Is it not a graver matter to go for longer than 1 day without praying? I agree that weekly Mass is very, very important. I still don’t understand why failure in this regard is equal to murder, adultery, assault or theft.

Praying without ceasing an admonition not a command.

The Sunday Obligation is equal to the other mortal sins you listed because missing Sunday Mass is being unfaithful to Christ, just as these other sins are. Since the Reformation and the stripping away of the sacraments in many Protestant denoms, people have a much more relaxed view of Sunday attendance, more’s the pity. A Catholic Sunday Mass is more than singing a few songs, praying a few prayers and listening to a sermon. It is a re-presenting of the one sacrifice of Christ on the very day he rose from the dead. The mind of the Church is that this is what binds the faithful together. When we say it isn’t important we are saying that the unity of the faith isn’t important. It certainly was to Jesus who prayed that we might be one as he and the Father are one. It certainly was to St. Paul who wrote that we are of one faith, one baptism, one body, etc. I really think you should do more reading and meditating on the Sunday obligation with the view of making it a part of your interior faith life.

 

[Della]

Part Deux! Darned 3000 character limitation! Argh!!!

The Holy Spirit can be relied upon to inform our consciences if we desire to do God’s will in everything we say, do, and think.

I do rely on Him heavily.

Peace to you.

What I meant by relying on the Holy Spirit to inform our consciences is that we must allow the Holy Spirit to do this by informing ourselves of what the Church teaches. I also wrote that the more we conform our hearts and minds to that of the Church( which is Christ’s body and the institution he set up to guide us in matters of faith and morals) the more we conform ourselves to Christ. That is VERY important and not to be overlooked. On matters that the Church has said are mortals sins, we cannot decide for ourselves if some of those matters were “man-made” or not. Let me assure they weren’t merely “man-made”. They were Holy Spirit guided and protected from error. Whenever we don’t understand why the Church teaches something we ought to dig deeply into that teaching, searching out the CCC and the scriptures it cites. Look for solid books on the subject and read those like “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn or “Evangelical is Not Enough” by Thomas Howard.

I am trying to help you see that saying you can decide what is and isn’t a mortal sin will lead you away from full participation in the life of the Church, which will in turn damage your soul (and mine too if I were to do the same–we are all of us weak and sinners). All the more then should we be accepting that the Church knows what it is doing after 2000 years of dealing with sinful men and the world.

Peace to you too!

 

[petra]

Della, thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I don’t remember if the answering machine message said anything about the reasons for Jan 1 not being obligatory. I wasn’t a Catholic then and just remember the pastor saying it was no longer a Holy Day of Obligation.

Being involved in recent discussions has revealed to me that I guess I have a difficulty with Church authority. I didn’t think I did when I converted, but it seems to be an issue now. I agree with 99% of what I hear, but there are a few issues that just seem wrong. The Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church, so I will trust Him to guide me through this issue.

Thanks again for your comments.

Peace.

 

[system]

But you knew that.

Yeah, I did. I think your posts are great. I want to be one of those POW-ZAP saints, instead of the moan-groan-do-I-gotta? kind of saint.

Is there a secret for doing that?

You’re asking ME? I guess you haven’t seen some of my posts on other threads…

Haven’t you ever been terrified of being called to be a saint? I know…we’re all called to be saints, yadda yadda (hmm…probably shouldn’t refer to an Important Theological Point as ‘yadda yadda’). What I mean is a SAINT. You know, called to be…Francis of Assisi or Mother Theresa or something. That’s scary, because if you read the lives of the saints, you find that it sure looks like God gives them their purgatory on earth a lot of the time. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a saint I’ve read about who didn’t suffer from some terrible illness; or from demons throwing him/her around his/her cell at night; or being falsely accused of some horrible vice or crime; or trying to follow God’s expressed desire for them to create a monastery or orphanage, only to have the pope or bishop shoot them down and send them off to some clerical Siberia for some silly or vicious reason; or going for years and years in a spiritual vacuum, feeling totally forgotten by God…

It seems like, ‘The greater the saint, the greater the suffering on earth.’

Maybe that’s why I’m so attracted to Therese of Lisieux. Maybe the ‘little way’ will mean little, light balsa-wood crosses, and not some major purgatory-like existence on earth.

Course I know I’m all wrong about this. I know Jesus fashions each cross for a personalized, ergonomic fit to each of us. I know that I have never suffered anything that was more than I could bear without grace flooding in and making it bearable.

I reckon, though, that for most of us (including some biggies like Saint Augustine), it’s gonna be a lot of moan-groan-do-I-gotta.

Despite my long-winded answers (I lecture for a living - so…), I’m a cut-to-the-chase type spiritually. Jesus says, ‘Trust me, whatever happens,’ and I know resisting just drags out the struggle. I’d rather be happy than unhappy, and some saint said that he was always happy because he knew he was always receiving God’s will for him - sun or rain. Makes sense to me. It’s a long road to heaven, but accepting every step as God’s will and not dragging my feet makes it more peaceful - and easier.

Thanks for your kind words!

 

[Della]

Nel wrote:

Maybe that’s why I’m so attracted to Therese of Lisieux. Maybe the ‘little way’ will mean little, light balsa-wood crosses, and not some major purgatory-like existence on earth.

I am thinking you were surely kidding here. St. Therese suffered in every way and not lightly, either. She went for years without any spiritual consolations, she was not allowed medications to relieve her physical sufferings that were so great she declared she didn’t know anyone could suffer so much pain, she was thought little of by her mother superior and was given the worst food in the convent because she never complained. And to top it all off, as she lay suffering horrible pains, she was plagued by doubts about the existence of heaven and if it was all worth it. Her “Little Way” was no path through lilies and roses. She lifted up our every day sufferings and penances to a place they had not had before, but she certainly didn’t have it easy or thought others who strive for perfection would either.

 

[Mijoy2]

Della:

Nel wrote:

And to top it all off, as she lay suffering horrible pains, she was plagued by doubts about the existence of heaven and if it was all worth it. Her “Little Way” was no path through lilies and roses. She lifted up our every day sufferings and penances to a place they had not had before, but she certainly didn’t have it easy or thought others who strive for perfection would either.

Oh my! Do you actually mean she doubted the existence of heaven while a Camelite Sister? Isn’t it true (in her book) that she believed she had an aspiration from the Blessed Virgin Mary? She believed Mary showed her a sign (was it a smile maybe, on a statue) immediately preceeding her recovery? Following all this she doubted? I struggle often (actually perpetually) with doubt. I debate with myself all the time, playing the devils advocate. I take the Atheist argument and debate it amongst myself. It’s an ongoing battle in my mind. I pray for His understanding and guidence. I hope He understands. If it is true that Sister Therese doubted I get comfort. I wonder how many people, Catholics, live doubt free. I ask myself if others, in dark moments alone, suffer the same thoughts as I. Maybe time for a poll.