Converts: Your No. 1 stumbling block to conversion?

[ATeNumquam]

Mijoy2:

Oh my! Do you actually mean she doubted the existence of heaven while a Camelite Sister? … If it is true that Sister Therese doubted I get comfort. I wonder how many people, Catholics, live doubt free. I ask myself if others, in dark moments alone, suffer the same thoughts as I.

It’s absolutely true that St Therese did, towards the end of her life, have doubts about the existence of heaven, and that she just had to go through the motions and continue to profess her belief. This torment did not let up till the moment of her death. She did not wilfully doubt. I can’t quote you the exact passages from her writings because I don’t have them, but have read her own words, also in the original French. Maybe it’s clearer in the unexpurgated translation of her autobiography, not the “Story of a Soul” which her sisters tweaked a bit.
I think a lot of people are tormented by doubts. St Therese could be a model of how to handle them.

---

A Te numquam separari permittas - never let me be separated from You

 

[Lance]

I voted for the infalability of the pope. At the time I didn’t understand it and thought it meant everything he said or did. Now that I understand it I have absolutly no problem with it. I was a Methodist before and at first did not see a huge difference, same creed, same New Testament, etc. but now that I have grown in my faith I see a big difference. I do still like the Methodist hymns though, some of them choke me up. Our choir director does have us sing some of them and I like it but some of the cradle Catholics don’t care for them. Guess that’s why they make Fords and Chevys.

 

[Gwynne]

I’m not a convert, and in fact I’m fairly new to learning about Catholicism, but, if you don’t mind, I’d like to share a few things that would be stumbling blocks for me.

I grew up in and out of two different Protestant denominations, the United Methodist church and the Church of Christ. Left Christianity altogether when I was a teen and explored spirituality every else. Came back to Christianity within the last year and starting attending and Assemblies of God church, Pentecostal and VERY Fundamentalist. At first I was happy there, until my first experience with people speaking in tongues. Sorry, but from my understanding of the Bible, speaking in tongues was speaking in REAL KNOWN human languages so that unbelievers would become believers. Yes, the person speaking didn’t know the language, but the listeners did. Pentecostal churches speak in tongues, with each other only. To me that seems to be a twisting of scripture. Anyway…

I also had issue with the fact that one of the church leaders was venomously opposed to the Catholic church, calling it evil, demonized, pagan and other nasty things. Now, I knew very little about the Catholic church, but I did not like the idea of one man who called himself a Christian being so absolutely nasty about another Christian church.

So I decided to start learning about the Catholic church. There has been more than just that, that has led me here, but that’s the short version.

A big obstacle was the veneration of Mary. I’ve overcome that, and in fact have started learning to pray the rosary. It’s a beautiful prayer and I find that it makes it so much easier to concentrate, my mind really tends to wander at times!

Veneration of saints goes along with the veneration of Mary, it’s not worship it’s honoring, and I understand that now.

I also understand the Eucharist and the belief of transubstantiation (sp?) Not sure if I believe it, but I understand it.

The biggest problem I have is the infallibility of the Pope and the absolute authority of the church. I just cannot get past that. However, I’m also very new to my study of the Catholic church, so I’ve got a LOT of reading ahead of me!

Anyway, that’s what’s there for me!

 

[chnchris]

Gwynne:

The biggest problem I have is the infallibility of the Pope and the absolute authority of the church. I just cannot get past that. However, I’m also very new to my study of the Catholic church, so I’ve got a LOT of reading ahead of me!

Matthew 16:13-19

Peters Declaration about Jesus

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14"Well," they replied, "some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets."
15Then he asked them, "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18Now I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hellwill not conquer it. 19And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven.”

    Jesus, knowing that His Father has blessed Peter
   with such knowledge, gives Peter the Keys to the
   Heavenly Kingdom (infallability), and builds His Holy
   Church on Peter (this rock), which shall never be
   conquered (thrown over - absolute authority)!

   Of course, i'm only using this passage to answer,
   there are much more detailed answers elsewhere,
   including within this forum on Apologetics.

 

[truthseeker1]

Matthew 16:13-19

Peters Declaration about Jesus

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14"Well," they replied, “some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the other prophets.”
15Then he asked them, “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John, because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any human being. 18Now I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell[will not conquer it. 19And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven.”

Jesus, knowing that His Father has blessed Peter
with such knowledge, gives Peter the Keys to the
Heavenly Kingdom (infallability), and builds His Holy
Church on Peter (this rock), which shall never be
conquered (thrown over - absolute authority)!

Interesting…I have seen verse 18 used before to “confirm” that Peter was the one that Christ built his church on, but if one reads on further in that passage to Matthew 16:23 :

1. But he turned, and said unto Peter, “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”

Sort of sounds like a change of heart on Christ’s part as to who he is going to build his church on? This can be explained because the original scripture uses the word “Petros” to describe the “rock”, NOT Peter! Peter and Petros are two different things entirely.

The church is built upon the Word of God, not Rome!
[/quote]

 

[Peg]

truthseeker, If you are really seeking truth, do a word search on Peter and study his unique standing among the apostles. All of the apostles are described by St. Paul as foundation stones but only Peter is given the keys, prayed for by Jesus to strengthen his brothers (Lk 22:31-32) and after the Resurrection, told by Jesus three times to feed his sheep.

 

[truthseeker1]

Peg:

truthseeker, If you are really seeking truth, do a word search on Peter and study his unique standing among the apostles. All of the apostles are described by St. Paul as foundation stones but only Peter is given the keys, prayed for by Jesus to strengthen his brothers (Lk 22:31-32) and after the Resurrection, told by Jesus three times to feed his sheep.

Hello Peg, thanks for responding. I read the verse and I do not deny that Peter had the keys to the kingdom of heaven. But we all can have the keys to the kingdom of heaven! Peter was no more unique than any of the other disciples who acknowledged that Jesus Christ was indeed the living Son of God.

The Catholic church bases its authority on Matthew 16:18, but they take the verse out of context entirely when they try to interpret it.

Consider Matthew 16:13 - 19

1. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”
2. And they said, “Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias or one of the prophets”
3. He saith unto them, “But whom say ye that I am?”
4. And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”
5. And Jesus answered and said unto him, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
6. And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
7. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The Greek translation of verse 18 uses two words that are similar. Petros for Peter, and petra (feminine) for rock. The verse looks something like this adding the Greek…

“And I say unto thee, that thou art Petros and upon this petra I will build my church…”

What is the petra that Christ will build his church on? It is the acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It is not Peter that Christ builds his church upon, but rather Peter’s belief and acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is the foundation of the REAL church and believers ARE the church. The church is flesh and blood, not a social and political establishment.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE ROCK, NOT PETER!!!

1Corinthians 10:4
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ”

1Corinthians 3:11
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ”

Peg, I really don’t mean to offend you in anyway or your beliefs, I just pray that we all find Truth. If you have any scriptures you wish to share, please, I am open to discuss this. There is nothing more important than the Truth.

 

[JohnCarroll]

copland:

JackPaul,

I have been studying Cathoicism for a good while now. A local parish gave me a Catechism that I have studied. And I have studied many of the Early Church Fathers. I am sold out for Catholicism. I do want to take the RCIA class. I would love to be a Catholic starting right now if I could, I have no doubts that it is the Way. But my biggest obstacle, my only obstacle is family. My wife and I are attending a “church of God,” but we have been Southern Baptist for the last 10 years up until about a year and a half ago. My wife grew up in a protestant church, and we have been raising our 7 year old boy in it.

My wife knows that I am very impressed with Catholicism, but I really don’t think she knows how deep I really feel about it. I have been gradually letting her into my feelings, just for the simple fact of not wanting to scare her off, because it is a very big deal. She seems to like the relaxed theological pluralism that you get in the protestant church. Changing and admitting your wrong is not one of her better traits.haha!

I think if my wife does go along with me eventually, she is really going to stumble with some stumbling blocks, such as birth control, pope, Mary, etc etc etc.

But anyway, please just keep us in prayer! Thanks!!

Dear Copland
As I was reading this thread I noticed that no one had answered your post. I had the same worry. We were Evangelical for 30 years. My wife all her life( now 56) . I too was longing to be Catholic but knew she would revolt if i came on too hard with her. So I would just tell her the exciting things i was finding out --things that clearly came from a love for Jesus but i never asked her to accept them or even asked what she thought about these things. I was determinded not to come in with out her. I told her that. To my suprise , one day she said she WANTED to be Catholic. It was me who was draging my feet. She has now been the one pulling me !

 

[Weezir]

hawkeye:

Well keep saying the Rosary, one of Marys 15 promises is that those devoted to the Rosary would receive signal graces.

What are signal graces? and how do you know this?
Weezir

 

[Mijoy2]

truthseeker1:

1. And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
2. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

JESUS CHRIST IS THE ROCK, NOT PETER!!!

1Corinthians 10:4
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ”

1Corinthians 3:11
“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ”

QUOTE]

Thruthseeker1,

My take on this:

I can respect your assersion that verse 18 has been the subject of differing ideas on it’s meaning. I can see how it can be interpreted in more then one way. What makes it easier for me to see the Catholic view is the fact that it is followed by verse 19. If Christ’s intent here was not to be passing authority over to Peter (or an individual or comittee), then it would follow that He was passing authority over to all (given your example). This (to me) clearly would ultimately yield confusion and vast disagreement over scripture and doctrine. This is evident amongst Protestants to this very day.

"and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: "
How can this be referring to **all **of His followers unanimously? Without an authority structure this could never work.

As for 1Corinthians 10:4 ,

I humbly admit I am vastly unqualified to to hash and rehash interpretation from a language perspective. My only language is English and I could be much more proficient at that then I am. My opinion is not one from a scholarly perspective, just one from a layman perspective.

Why does the reference “Rock” have to be pointing to one subject in all context? Rock = Christ, Christ = Rock. Aren’t there other verses in scripture where “Rock” has differing meanings? I believe there is, such as the parable of the building of the House (to lazy to look it up). “Rock” is an adjective. Not an aka for Jesus. Just my 2 cents. Hopefully some theological scholars will chime in.
In verse 18 He seems to be refering to a foundation. A “Rock” foundation. He knew He was about to depart.

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

From the (name removed by moderator)ut I’ve gotten on other topics, the CCC is not considered inerrant. Someone on another thread, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3327 (see post #12), asked Archbishop William Levada, one of the writers of the CCC, whether the CCC was infallible and whether some teachings might be changed in the future. The Archbishop’s response was that it is not correct to say that the CCC is infallible.

Scripture, basic Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit’s unction within me, and correlating the dynamics of earthly relationships that God ordained indicate that the issue we are discussing is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.

I wrote that post, and I am truly sorry that it was so poorly written that you got the wrong impression about what Archbishop Levada was saying. Archbishop Levada affirmed that not everything written in the Catechism can be considered to be the infallible teaching of the Church. That does not mean that there are NO infallible teachings to be found within the Catechism.

The Catechism teaches that the Church cannot err when teaching matters of faith and morals. It is an infallible moral teaching of the Church that knowingly and intentionally missing Mass on Sunday without a good reason is grave matter. For example, to blow off going to Mass because one wanted to watch a football game is not a valid reason for missing Mass.

Scripture, basic Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit’s unction within me, and correlating the dynamics of earthly relationships that God ordained indicate that the issue we are discussing is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.

Ahh… I think that you have fallen into the Protestant error of asserting “a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience” and a “rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching.”

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

MORAL CONSCIENCE

ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792** Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

 

[Matt16_18]

Della:

You have taken the Archbishop’s words too far here. While the CCC as a document is not infallible, the teachings of the Church certainly are.

You cannot decide what is and what isn’t venial or mortal sins for yourself. That is one of the marks of Protestantism–the idea that each of us are our own Magisterium.

I agree with this. Well said!

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

The primacy of Peter, papal infallibility, the magisterium http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/polls/bar2-r.gif **13**11.50%Mary and/or the communion of saints http://forums.catholic-questions.or...atholic-questions.org/images/polls/bar3-r.gif **34**30.09%These 2 are my biggest obstacles… I still can’t get past it… I doubt I ever will…

I think that’s ok though… it’s not “required” to get into heaven…

I still love Jesus with all my heart and soul. I try my hardest to do what is asked of me. I repent. I have a deep relationship with God. So I think I am still ok…

 

[Matt16_18]

petra:

Isn’t sin, sin? How can the Church suddenly declare something to be sin (mortal sin, no less!), or conversely say it isn’t? Somehow, I think God’s view of sin doesn’t change. Morality is not relative. Neither is Truth.

Some of the disciplines in the church are arbitrary. But so what? Many of the laws in our country are arbitrary, but without them we would suffer chaos and mayhem. As a nation, we have decided that it is a law that cars must drive on the right side of the road - an arbitrary decision on the part of the lawmakers. What would happen if every state had different laws about which side of the roads we should drive on? What if I decided that I am free to drive on the left side of the road because driving on the right is merely an arbitrary decision? The Church is indeed arbitrary in some of her rules of discipline for the same reason that traffic laws are somewhat arbitrary – it promotes unity instead of chaos.

The infallible teachings of the Church concerning morality are not at all arbitrary. The infallible moral teaching of the Church is based on the moral absolutes, and these moral absolutes can never change because they are absolute (only God is absolute). IOW, the moral absolutes are God, because God is what he knows, and God cannot change.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life …
John 14:6

 

[Matt16_18]

Nel

Haven’t you ever been terrified of being called to be a saint?

Sure. For a long time my prayer life was basically, “ I have this problem, I have that problem, someone else has this problem and that problem … and God, you have to solve all these problems”. And that is OK, because God is concerned about our problems, and he does want us to take our problems to him in prayer.

But I got to thinking about the one prayer that God really wants to hear from me that I was never saying - “God, I am a hopeless and powerless in myself, give me the graces to become a great saint.” It seemed very strange to ask God to make me a great saint, but what else would God have me pray? Make me a mediocre saint? It seems to me that God is just patiently sitting and waiting for us to pray to him to turn us into GREAT saints, because he would never desire anything less in this department.

It seems like, ‘The greater the saint, the greater the suffering on earth.’ Maybe that’s why I’m so attracted to Therese of Lisieux. Maybe the ‘little way’ will mean little, light balsa-wood crosses, and not some major purgatory-like existence on earth.

I too am attracted to the “Little Way”. But Therese hardly carried a balsa wood cross – she died of TB and was in a spiritual desert for many, many, years.

I had a friend tell me that Mary promised that our life on earth could be our purgatory if we would let it be that. She said that she prayed for that, and then she wondered why she did, because her life suddenly became a lot different than the way it used to be! I think that is right to think that God desires our life on earth to be our purgatory – that God desires us to be perfected in this world so that when we die, we can go straight to heaven. Why would God want us to go to purgatory instead of straight to heaven? From what I have read about private revelations concerning purgatory, having our purgatory on earth is definitely the easiest and least painful way to perfection.

And when Thou didst on all sides show me that what Thou said was true, I, though convinced of its truth, only repeated my dull and drowsy words, “Right away, one minute, leave me but a little.” But “right away” wasn’t ever right now, and my “little while” went on for a long while . . . But I, wretched young man, even more wretched than in my youth, begged you for chastity yet said, “Make me chaste and continent, but not yet!”

St. Augustine

Lord make me a great saint, and let me have a balsa wood cross too. How often do I find myself praying like that? Often!

 

[chnchris]

truthseeker1:

Interesting…I have seen verse 18 used before to “confirm” that Peter was the one that Christ built his church on, but if one reads on further in that passage to Matthew 16:23 :
23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men”
Sort of sounds like a change of heart on Christ’s part as to who he is going to build his church on? This can be explained because the original scripture uses the word “Petros” to describe the “rock”, NOT Peter! Peter and Petros are two different things entirely.
The church is built upon the Word of God, not Rome!

  These " Protestations " are standard diatribe from
  those who choose not to follow Jesus in obedience.
  There are oodles of detailed explanations on these
  (some i've listed below, if you really care to know the
  Truth).

  Christ is the Head of the Body (Church), but knowing
  His earthly time with the Apostles was almost over, He
  (with the Father's approval) chose Peter (Kephas) to 
  lead His Church. It is this Church which is the " pillar
  and bulwark of the Truth " (1 Tim. 3:15). And it is through
  the Church, we have received the Word of God ( Sacred
  Scripture and Tradition). Rather than attacking the Church
  (founded by Jesus Christ), you should be thankful for His
  precious gift to us.

  Regarding the role of Peter and papal primacy, may i
  highly recommend, ***Upon this Rock*** by Stephen Ray
  ( former Baptist Biblical scholar ) and ***Jesus, Peter &
  the Keys** - A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy* by:
  Scott Butler, Norm Dahlgren, and David Hess.

Also, please go to:
catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp
catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp
catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp
bringyou.to/apologetics/num41.htm
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ112.HTM
catholicoutlook.com/rock2.php
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pp.html

i pray you keep an open heart and continue to seek Jesus,
as fully revealed in His Holy Catholic Church.

 

[mercygate]

copland:

My biggest stumbling block right now is the lack of out-reach from Catholics in my area. Catholics seem to not be evangelistic minded like they are in Protestant churches. If it had not been for discussion forums I would not have ever been thinking about convertin to the Catholic Church.

Dear Copland,

Converts rarely mention the vast loneliness one can experience coming into the Church – maybe most people do not experience it. Yet for me, the loneliness was part of the grace: “Sufficient for thee . . .” Through it I came to a deeper awareness and appreciation of Christ guiding my steps.

Becoming Catholic is not “joining a church” it is taking a decisive step toward committing your entire life - soul and body - to Christ Himself. Sometimes, the grace to see one step at a time is all there is.

 

[mercygate]

copland:

My biggest stumbling block right now is the lack of out-reach from Catholics in my area. Catholics seem to not be evangelistic minded like they are in Protestant churches. If it had not been for discussion forums I would not have ever been thinking about convertin to the Catholic Church.

Dear Copland,

Converts rarely mention the vast loneliness one can experience coming into the Church – maybe most people do not experience it. Yet for me, the loneliness was part of the grace: “Sufficient for thee . . .” Through it I came to a deeper awareness and appreciation of Christ guiding my steps.

Becoming Catholic is not “joining a church” it is taking a decisive step toward committing your entire life - soul and body - to Christ Himself. Sometimes, the grace to see one step at a time is all there is.

 

[BILL_BRADLEY]

Conversion was a journey that was not initiated with any personal contact but started with a tap on the shoulder. One hears the truth and it nags at oneself to the extent that one has to hear more the minute you say to yourself. There is something there. Once surrendered to the true presence in the Eucharist and the dialogue begins, thats it and you might as well realize the rest is coming.

 

[hawkeye]

DaveBj:

My biggest obstacles were the Assumption of Mary and the concept of her as Queen of Heaven. Next on the list was the idea of temporal punishment of sins; to me, it didn’t seem right for a sin to be forgiven, but for punishment to still be meted out for it.

DaveBj

When we look at a picture we give praise to the Artist that drew it, a masterpeice probably.
When we look at Mary we give praise to God for such a Masterpeice as Mary, (honor)
Jesus gave us Mary at the foot of the cross, & thats good enough for me.