Convince Me to Stay Catholic!

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I was born and raised Catholic, but my parents were hardly devout. For most of my life, I wouldn’t have even considered myself a Christian. However, about 2 years ago, I became a Christian and began really closely examining the various denominations and beliefs within Christianity, as many of my forum posts on this site have shown. I started out rather skeptical when it came to Catholicism, but one by one, as I began really studying the Church fathers, my theological views began to come in line with traditional Catholicism. However, as some of you may know, there are certain issues that I simply CANNOT accept regarding Catholicism.

I have studied the scriptures and tradition very closely, read all of the great classic and modern Catholic apologists, and despite all of this, on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit. I have prayed to St. Peter, I have spent countless hours in private prayer, I have spoken to numerous and devout Catholics, as well as clergymen, and I cannot accept those three things as the Catholic Church teaches them. I am now at the point where I can’t go to Church and participate as a normal member of the Church without essentially feeling dishonest. I don’t partake of the Eucharist, and I want desperately to be apart of a Christian community.

So why not just join the United Methodists, conservative Anglicans, evangelicals, etc.? For several reasons. First, I believe that schism is not what Jesus intended in Christianity generally and should be avoided at all costs. Second, I believe that in the world we live in today, a united, international, and powerful Christian voice is essential in the world, and only the Catholic Church has the ability to stand against some of the threats presented by radical Islam (not moderate) and extreme secularists like those who want to eliminate Christmas and all remnants of our Christian heritage. Third, I believe that, along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church is unwilling to compromise its central beliefs no matter what. Even the very conservative Southern Baptist Convention supported abortion in the 1970s. Fourth, I agree with MUCH of Catholic theology, including devotion to Mary, the creeds, seven sacraments, infant baptism, apostolic succession (although my view tends to merge priests and bishops into one class), praying to the saints, and various other beliefs as well.

So while it is true I have three major doctrinal disagreements with the Church that have only been further confirmed over time and through research, I do love much about the Catholic Church. At this point though, I just feel like moving on to another church. I have carefully considered this over the last year especially and I feel that I have no other choice but to leave. Before I do though, I am going to speak to everyone I know, including priests, and this forum is apart of that process. So what is your position on those staying in the Church despite having irreconcilable differences?

Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Aren’t I better off finding a church with apostolic succession and being more involved there? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated.

Just as a note, I am NOT interested in engaging in a debate about the problems I have with the Church. I am confident in these positions and I am very well read on them. The problem isn’t the information. I have come to these conclusions based on a ton of evidence. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right, but I am saying that my position isn’t going to change…or at least for the sake of the current issue, please act like my position is not going to change on these issues.
 
Lumem Gentium

14…Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:

For the sake of your soul, you should remain in the Church. Be obedient and pray for understanding and not put your ego above God and His Church.
 
It sounds like what you really don’t believe is the basic claim of the Catholic Church about her origin and her reception and guarding of the deposit of faith. What exactly do you think the Catholic Church is?
 
Obedience, and submission to authority–specifically, to the magesterium–is essential to being fully Catholic–as in, in full communion. So you can remain Catholic as you are, and simply not participate in the Eucharist–as with many re-married ‘divorcees’ (although that ‘simply’, is an incredibly high price to pay, imo…nothing on the planet is worth that to me…and if you don’t get that…you don’t get it).

Or, you can turn your back entirely on the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ actually founded.

I know you said you didn’t want to engage in debate over the issues you ‘cannot accept’–which I’ll respect–but let me just offer a couple of thoughts for consideration:
  1. The Papacy is the glue that keeps the Church…one. Papal supremacy and papal infallability, are ‘tools’ entrusted to the Papacy, to help it discharge its adhesive charge. Note the limited application of papal infallability.
  2. Transubstantiation is just a fancy word used to describe–or rather reconcile the paradox of the appearance (accidents) vis a vis the resulting substance. A convenient word used to encapsulate/articulate what many of the Church Fathers already proclaimed. (curious–so if you believe in the ‘Real Presence’, but not transubstantiation, do you believe in consubstantiation? something else?)
FWIW: I guess I’m just a simpler man than you–I don’t care what or how it happens–I simply and deeply appreciate the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of the Risen Christ. I leave the ‘mechanics’ to ‘the authorities’, and the only authority that passes all muster (at least the fullest ‘muster’) to me, is the Catholic Church.
  1. I know you asked us to convice you to remain Catholic–but I’m gonna’ go in just the opposite direction here. My read, is that you are deeply Catholic in your core; but you have an itch that needs to be scratched. You need to get out there…leave home for a while. See what’s out there. The beauty of the Catholic Church often times comes best into focus, when one views her from the outside–and realizes the beauty they left behind.
Rather than half-*****'n it, and remaining ‘Catholic’ (in name only)–I say go on…live a little…get out there, and see what’s out there. I have the fullest faith in the Truth of Catholicism, that it will beckon you back–but with passion, rather than doubt…

…and of course we’ll all welcome you back home enthusiatically, with open arms, as the Father in the parable of teh progigal son.

b/t/w: for reference, you said you read all the modern apologists–so you probably recognize my allusion to stepping out, and looking back at the Church from the outside and seeing her beauty–from GK Chesterton’s Orthodoxy. If not, perhaps you may want to give it a read…

In the long run, the Church is better served when you come in with a zealous passion, seeking to serve her–rather than reluctance, in how she should better serve you. Or to paraphrase a famous Catholic:

Ask not what your Church can do for you…but what you can do for your Church. 👍

Either way, we’ll be praying for a you…and I’ll be praying for a fruitful roundtrip! 😉
 
Goya said:
Obedience, and submission to authority–specifically, to the magesterium–is essential to being fully Catholic–as in, in full communion. So you can remain Catholic as you are, and simply not participate in the Eucharist–as with many re-married ‘divorcees’ (although that ‘simply’, is an incredibly high price to pay, imo…nothing on the planet is worth that to me…and if you don’t get that…you don’t get it).

Or, you can turn your back entirely on the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ actually founded.

I know you said you didn’t want to engage in debate over the issues you ‘cannot accept’–which I’ll respect–but let me just offer a couple of thoughts for consideration:
  1. The Papacy is the glue that keeps the Church…one. Papal supremacy and papal infallability, are ‘tools’ entrusted to the Papacy, to help it discharge its adhesive charge. Note the limited application of papal infallability.
  2. Transubstantiation is just a fancy word used to describe–or rather reconcile the paradox of the appearance (accidents) vis a vis the resulting substance. A convenient word used to encapsulate/articulat what many of the Church Fathers already proclaimed.
    (curions–so if you believe in the ‘Real Presence’, but not transubstantiation, do you believe in consubstantiation? something else?)
FWIW: I guess I’m just a simpler man than you–I don’t care what or how it happens–I simply and deeply appreciate the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, of the Risen Christ. I leave the ‘mechanics’ to ‘the authorities’, and the only authority that passes all muster (at least the fullest ‘muster’) to me, is the Catholic Church.
  1. I know you asked us to convice you to remain Catholic–but I’m gonna’ go in just the opposite direction here. My read, is that you are deeply Catholic in your core; but you have an itch that needs to be scratched. You need to get out there…leave home for a while. See what’s out there. The beauty of the Catholic Church often times comes best into focus, when one views her from the outside–and realizes the beauty they left behind.
Rather than half-*****'n it, and remaining ‘Catholic’ (in name only)–I say go on…live a little…get out there, and see what’s out there. I have the fullest faith in the Truth of Catholicism, that it will beckon you back–but with passion, rather than doubt…

…and of course we’ll all welcome you back home enthusiatically, with open arms, as the Father in the parable of teh progigal son.

b/t/w: for reference, you said you read all the modern apologists–so you probably recognize my allusion to stepping out, and looking back at the Church from the outside and seeing her beauty–from GK Chesterton’s Orthodoxy. If not, perhaps you may want to give it a read…

In the long run, the Church is better served when you come in with a zealous passion, seeking to serve her–rather than reluctance, in how she should better serve you.

Or to paraphrase a famous Catholic:

Ask not what your Church can do for you…but what you can do for your Church. 👍

Either way, we’ll be praying for a you…and I’ll be praying for a fruitful roundtrip! 😉
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I appreciate all of this and your prayers as well. I will carefully consider your kind remarks.
 
snarflemike said:
It sounds like what you really don’t believe is the basic claim of the Catholic Church about her origin and her reception and guarding of the deposit of faith. What exactly do you think the Catholic Church is?
Click to expand...
My conception of the Catholic Church would match that of the Orthodox Church or of the Anglican Church.
 
I am not sure after reading your post why you are still struggling with some key issues but why don’t you ask God to help your understand? Why don’t you spend some time in adoration and ask Jesus himself? This is what comes to mind for you.
 
Of all the things you thought of quitting, why did you pick your religion.

I need you for me, you need me for you, we are here for each other’s salvation.

Go if you want, but consider that you will most likely be back, in a more littered eventuality.
 
jinc1019 said:
I was born and raised Catholic, but my parents were hardly devout. For most of my life, I wouldn’t have even considered myself a Christian. However, about 2 years ago, I became a Christian and began really closely examining the various denominations and beliefs within Christianity, as many of my forum posts on this site have shown. I started out rather skeptical when it came to Catholicism, but one by one, as I began really studying the Church fathers, my theological views began to come in line with traditional Catholicism. However, as some of you may know, there are certain issues that I simply CANNOT accept regarding Catholicism.

I have studied the scriptures and tradition very closely, read all of the great classic and modern Catholic apologists, and despite all of this, on the issues of supreme papal authority, papal infallibility, and transubstantiation (I do accept some form of the Real Presence, but not the Catholic view), I cannot submit. I have prayed to St. Peter, I have spent countless hours in private prayer, I have spoken to numerous and devout Catholics, as well as clergymen, and I cannot accept those three things as the Catholic Church teaches them. I am now at the point where I can’t go to Church and participate as a normal member of the Church without essentially feeling dishonest. I don’t partake of the Eucharist, and I want desperately to be apart of a Christian community.

So why not just join the United Methodists, conservative Anglicans, evangelicals, etc.? For several reasons. First, I believe that schism is not what Jesus intended in Christianity generally and should be avoided at all costs. Second, I believe that in the world we live in today, a united, international, and powerful Christian voice is essential in the world, and only the Catholic Church has the ability to stand against some of the threats presented by radical Islam (not moderate) and extreme secularists like those who want to eliminate Christmas and all remnants of our Christian heritage. Third, I believe that, along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church is unwilling to compromise its central beliefs no matter what. Even the very conservative Southern Baptist Convention supported abortion in the 1970s. Fourth, I agree with MUCH of Catholic theology, including devotion to Mary, the creeds, seven sacraments, infant baptism, apostolic succession (although my view tends to merge priests and bishops into one class), praying to the saints, and various other beliefs as well.

So while it is true I have three major doctrinal disagreements with the Church that have only been further confirmed over time and through research, I do love much about the Catholic Church. At this point though, I just feel like moving on to another church. I have carefully considered this over the last year especially and I feel that I have no other choice but to leave. Before I do though, I am going to speak to everyone I know, including priests, and this forum is apart of that process. So what is your position on those staying in the Church despite having irreconcilable differences?

Am I really better off as a Christian staying in the Church as an outsider who is not eligible to engage in any kind of a ministry, to partake of the Eucharist, or to be truly and completely apart of the Church? Aren’t I better off finding a church with apostolic succession and being more involved there? Am I really better off spending a lifetime in the Church as an outsider who is unable to engage in a full Catholic life? Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated.

Just as a note, I am NOT interested in engaging in a debate about the problems I have with the Church. I am confident in these positions and I am very well read on them. The problem isn’t the information. I have come to these conclusions on a ton of evidence. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right, but I am saying that my position isn’t going to change…or at least for the sake of the current issue, please act like my position is not going to change on these issues.
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Ok… there is no reason for you to join the Catholic Church if you reject the primacy of Peter,
transubstantiation etc. It makes no sense to join any church Catholic or not if you reject
major tenants of the Faith. You havel lots of choices where to go next…there are thousands of Bible alone Churches and you can find one that suits your beliefs quite
easily if that is what you are searching for. You will have to look further about your beliefs

1 Reject the Papacy that gives you any Protestant Church basicall that is Sola Scriptura.
2.Reject transubstantaion. Don’t be fooled by Churches that say they believe in “real presence” but look closely at their professions of Faith. They may “pretend” on a messge
board that it’s similar but often it is not remotely so.
  1. Decide what you believe regarding.
    Communion: Is it symbolic or real presence and if so to what extent. Is it in with and under,
    etc etc etc. Then decide.
  2. Decide what you believe regarding pro life or pro choice. Is abortion murder or not.
  3. Decide what you believe on inter Faith religions.
  4. May want to decide if the Pope is the Anti pope, the anti Christ or his office is the AntiChrist then if you reject the papacy and go from there.
  5. May want to decide also your views on homosexuality, is it disordered and God calls such behavior subject to celibacy on such inclinations, is it acceptable as a practice,
    is it fine to ordain homosexual practicing clergy.
    8: What about women Pastors? Is it Scriptural? Should women be ordained.
You need to look further at these issues and then decide what Protestestant Church
best suits your non negotaible beliefs.

Mary.
Mary.
 
robwar said:
I am not sure after reading your post why you are still struggling with some key issues but why don’t you ask God to help your understand? Why don’t you spend some time in adoration and ask Jesus himself? This is what comes to mind for you.
Click to expand...
I have done this a great deal…and the more I have studied after praying, the more convinced I am of my position.
 
MaryT777 said:
Ok… there is no reason for you to join the Catholic Church if you reject the primacy of Peter,
transubstantiation etc. It makes no sense to join any church Catholic or not if you reject
major tenants of the Faith. You havel lots of choices where to go next…there are thousands of Bible alone Churches and you can find one that suits your beliefs quite
easily if that is what you are searching for. You will have to look further about your beliefs

1 Reject the Papacy that gives you any Protestant Church basicall that is Sola Scriptura.
2.Reject transubstantaion. Don’t be fooled by Churches that say they believe in “real presence” but look closely at their professions of Faith. They may “pretend” on a messge
board that it’s similar but often it is not remotely so.
  1. Decide what you believe regarding.
    Communion: Is it symbolic or real presence and if so to what extent. Is it in with and under,
    etc etc etc. Then decide.
  2. Decide what you believe regarding pro life or pro choice. Is abortion murder or not.
  3. Decide what you believe on inter Faith religions.
  4. May want to decide if the Pope is the Anti pope, the anti Christ or his office is the AntiChrist then if you reject the papacy and go from there.
  5. May want to decide also your views on homosexuality, is it disordered and God calls such behavior subject to celibacy on such inclinations, is it acceptable as a practice,
    is it fine to ordain homosexual practicing clergy.
    8: What about women Pastors? Is it Scriptural? Should women be ordained.
You need to look further at these issues and then decide what Protestestant Church
best suits your non negotaible beliefs.

Mary.
Mary.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the response.
Your views are a bit ridiculous of course, but I think they are largely there for effect, which I get.
For instance, Orthodox Christians reject papal authority but they don’t accept sola scriptura. Additionally, they don’t view the pope as the antichrist or anything close to that, and neither do I. Further, I do believe in the Real Presence, but I don’t accept the Catholic version of it. I agree that most churches ultimately reject it largely.
 
One time when you’re sitting in prayer, ask yourself ‘why *wouldn’t *God give us those things?’ Do you doubt His generousity? His compassion? Why wouldn’t God give us those things to help us in this difficult struggle to heaven? We are so broken in sin, why wouldn’t He supply us these things to strengthen us?

Receive these things with joy. With thankfulness. With gratitude.
“I believe, help my unbelief!”

May Easter be a refilling of the Holy Spirit in you!
God bless.
 
PennyinCanada said:
One time when you’re sitting in prayer, ask yourself ‘why *wouldn’t *God give us those things?’ Do you doubt His generousity? His compassion? Why wouldn’t God give us those things to help us in this difficult struggle to heaven? We are so broken in sin, why wouldn’t He supply us these things to strengthen us?

Receive these things with joy. With thankfulness. With gratitude.
“I believe, help my unbelief!”

May Easter be a refilling of the Holy Spirit in you!
God bless.
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I appreciate the blessings and kindness.
But, to address your point, you could easily make the same argument about numerous parts of Church history. For instance, why would God give us His one true Church but allow it to burn people alive, to torture and murder people, to endorse war, etc.? I am NOT one of those Catholic bashers. I recognize that as an organization it has done more for the world than any other organization, but let’s face it…it has done a lot of inexplicably bad things. Why would God let the Church do that?
 
On the Damascus Road, Saul and his companions were struck down by a blinding light, brighter than the noonday sun. Saul heard a voice say to him:

“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4, NIV)

When Saul asked who was speaking to him, the voice replied, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” (Acts 9:5-6, NIV)

The men with Saul heard the sound but did not see the vision of the risen Christ that Saul did. Saul was blinded. They led him by the hand into Damascus to a man named Judas, on Straight Street. For three days Saul was blind and did not eat or drink anything.

Meanwhile, Jesus appeared in a vision to a disciple in Damascus named Ananias and told him to go to Saul. Ananias was afraid because he knew Saul’s reputation as a merciless persecutor of the church.

Jesus repeated his command, explaining that Saul was his chosen instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentiles, their kings, and the people of Israel. So Ananias found Saul at Judas’ house, praying for help. Ananias laid his hands on Saul, telling him Jesus had sent him to restore his sight and that Saul might be filled with the Holy Spirit.
 
Hi OP, Convince you to stay Catholic? Can’t do that, you have free will.

I am the only Catholic in a large protestant family, some devout, some not, so I found your thoughts to be similar to my experiences. My thought is that usually it comes down to how one looks at obedience as virtuous at the end of the day. I view it as liberating, the responsibility of moral certitude is not a burden, nor the potential detriment of wrong establishment of Christian conscience because I follow the teachings (not without failure), but helps me avoid deepening a debt of iniquity caused from wrong development of conscience. So obedience becomes a freeing and liberating virtue.

For some in my family, they have a desire to “establish their own parameters of faith”. They feel obedience to “rules” is a stranglehold and prevents them from flourishing and living up to their potential. Well, the thing is, if you do that, you become morally culpable from your own wrong conscience development (because it was willful) and possibly anyone else that your “ministry” affected that was contrary to the faith (the millstone, right). So, this “false freedom” then becomes a terrible vice, possibly a condemning one.
I liked your statement, “. I am not saying I am absolutely certain I am right”. That is an important one–hang on to it. I’m not suggesting anything about your “rightness”, I’m just glad you’re not taking the definitive, “I’m sure I know more than the Church” tract.

As a Catholic, I don’t get to define and own my faith, in that sense. It preceded me without my (name removed by moderator)ut. Obedience to it is liberating and I LOVE the freedom. I wouldn’t want to ever become a slave to the finite limits of my discerning mind and let my salvation depend on whether my personal intelligence is sufficient. There is a danger in that of saying to God, “If you want me, then provide me the right information and direction” and risk Him saying “I already did, you rejected it because you wanted to be in charge.”

Just my two cents.
 
You do realize that if you leave the Catholic Church that you are also leaving the Sacraments, right? You’ll be leaving behind Jesus Himself in the Most Holy Eucharist and you’ll also be leaving the Sacrament of Reconciliation which is the means God has provided by which we can be reconciled to Him after committing a mortal sin. You’ll also leave behind the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick and any other Sacraments that you are eligible to receive. Keep in mind that you will also be leaving behind the Holy Mass which is the most powerful prayer on earth and is the sacrifice of our Lord.
 
jinc1019 said:
I appreciate the blessings and kindness.
But, to address your point, you could easily make the same argument about numerous parts of Church history. For instance, why would God give us His one true Church but allow it to burn people alive, to torture and murder people, to endorse war, etc.? I am NOT one of those Catholic bashers. I recognize that as an organization it has done more for the world than any other organization, but let’s face it…it has done a lot of inexplicably bad things. Why would God let the Church do that?
Click to expand...
The answer you’ll most likely get is that “The Church” did none of those things, only the good, bad things are done by those in the Church, but not by “The Church” Herself…see how they do that?! 😃
 
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