Convince me

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We pray what we believe, so the words of each prayer is so important. Roman Catholics, for example, in the Hail Mary are taught that the world is without end - this directly contradicts Tradition, Biblical & oral.
Fascinating.
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
:confused:

Perhaps you meant the doxology:
Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning,
is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen.
To suggest that those words represent a teaching that “the world is without end” is very peculiar. These words are a vintage English translation of the Latin in saecula saeculorum Greek in εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

Whatever the merits of the English translation, its meaning is not - and really cannot be - a departure from the meaning of the Latin (or Greek). One really doesn’t have to look any further than something as simple as Wiki to get it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_saecula_saeculorum.

The “world” in the phrase is not our present, physical world but is used as a metaphor - still in common use - for “the life and times” or the “age”. The reference is to the eternal life that is to come. The issue is similar to the issue in the translation of the end of the Creed as, alternatively “world to come” or age to come". I’ve seen both even among EOCs:
oca.org/orthodoxy/prayers/symbol-of-faith
goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed
 
It’s funny that this item is in here, as in seeing this entry, I was going to post a comment that would specifically relate to the Anglicans, rather than more directly to the Orthodox, but perhaps be worthy of consideration in any event.

Anyhow, debates on this topic, having read them in the past, tend to get pretty heated, so I’m not going to directly respond to it but note instead that I think this question is one that should be considered, with slight alternations, by “Anglican Catholics” who are not choosing to return to the Church. There’s two such churches here in my home town, and they both conceive of themselves as being Catholic churches. If they conceive of themselves in that fashion, given the risky nature of going out on theological limbs, why preserve any doubt and instead come back in?
I will let our Anglican brethren answer your question for themselves. However, I’ll give my answer for the equivalent question that I would be asked, I.e. why wouldn’t I play-it-safe by “going back” (as some would call it) to Orthodoxy? I answer that, in my view, “playing it safe” is staying in the communion that I’ve been in all my life, I.e. the Roman Communion, regardless of my ancestors having been Orthodox. Just as, likewise, if I were Orthodox, I would not schism from Orthodoxy in order to become Catholic.
 
In this, I totally disagree with you because 1 can never expresses the same truth as 2 unless something is added & 2 can never express the same truth as 1 unless something is subtracted.
Well, we have 3 in 1 or 1 in 3 in God according to hypostasis or perichoresis, so I don’t understand your conundrum at 2 in 1 or 1 in 2. God is beyond our numerical approach to these matters. We are expressing it the best we can, but we have come to the conclusion that our inadequate human expressions are in fact expressing the SAME Truth. When you have time, perhaps you can explain why 2 in 1 or 1 in 2 presents such a drastic divergence to you, in light of our common belief about the Trinity.
We pray what we believe, so the words of each prayer is so important. Roman Catholics, for example, in the Hail Mary are taught that the world is without end - this directly contradicts Tradition, Biblical & oral.
:confused::confused::confused: I have always understood that clause to refer to Eternity. Can we get some Latins here to affirm or correct my understanding? Is this saying, as our Orthodox sister claims, that this is referring to our material world?
I just give this as one example, there are to many for me to list as my two year old is jumping on my back, pulling my hair & climbing through my legs & pulling herself up on the bed using my pinky - ouch!
UNDERSTOOD!😃
If “through” is what Western Catholics mean, then why isn’t that what they actually say, pray & teach? “Through” is something I could believe, but “and” in no way expresses the same truth.
That approach is exactly what we avoid in the Catholic Church. We don’t ask Latins to give up their Traditions just to pacify us, just as we do not expect them to ask us to give up our Traditions just because they are not used to it. We understand that their “and” actually means “through” theologically, and that is enough. I can give numerous examples where this principle can be applied. Here are just a few:
Though Orientals and Easterns both share a doctrine on the Essence/Energy of God, There are Orientals who are really uncomfortable when Easterns say “The Energy IS God” or “the Essence IS God” because that makes it seem like there are other Persons in the Trinity. Should we try to understand and accept what you are really trying to say, or should we insist that you give up that particular Tradition for our sake?

Latins often regard standing during the elevation of the Host as a lack of respect for the Lord (instead, they kneel). Should they try to understand and accept what we do, or should we give up our Tradition to pacify them?

Certain Latins accuse us of denying the simplicity of God because of the Essence/Energy distinction. Well, at least for me as an Oriental, we do not deny the simplicity of God, despite our acknowledgement of the Essence/Energy distinction (I don’t know about you as an Eastern). Should we just give up our Tradition to pacify the Latins?

What you are proposing is, to many Catholics, nothing more than uniatism. We tried that, and it just doesn’t work.
Re: Different Canon Law - for one example (I can’t type much longer) a Rome Catholic who misses a Sunday Mass (or Saturday night vigil) without a valid reason is guilty of a mortal sin which if he/she dies unrepented causes him or her to go to hell. The Eastern Catholics can miss Divine Liturgy without fear of eternal damnation as they are not under an Obligation Law.
First of all, Latin Catholics are offered the Grace of Forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. If they were not, then I’d see your point about the impropriety of instilling a “fear of eternal damnation.”

Secondly, does your Eastern Tradition not regard anything as worthy of hellfire? If it does, it would seem to be a case of “the pot calling the kettle black.” I mean, I see their “Sunday Obligation” rule as a way to instill the importance of worshipping God on the Lord’s Day, which is, in fact, a commandment of God. I really don’t see anything wrong with that purpose in mind. When I was young (in the COC), we were taught to love the Commandments and follow them – and we worship on the Lord’s Day out of love for God’s commandments (not out of fear of hellfire). Either way, it is for the same purpose, to obey the commandment of God. We should never lose sight of that fact which unites us. Besides, I don’t think the Latin Church sets its rules to instill an unhealthy scrupulosity in people. You will find unhealthy scrupulosity in ANY Church, regardless of the Canons. Further, I doubt the majority of Latin Catholics go to Church because they have to. I believe they do so out of love for God.

Finally, I’m not sure that missing DL is exactly as relaxed as you make it seem. There is a definite limit that we as non-Latins can miss without incurring the sanctions of the Church. There is a point that missing DL can “miss the mark” (I think it is three?)

Blessings,
Marduk
 
😦 My original question to you remains unanswered by you 😦 but it’s been answered by another, so I’m not too terribly disappointed 🙂
Yes, i remember:
Thank you for sharing 🙂

On your last point, I don’t understand. I don’t see any unity in the Catholic Church - not in Liturgy or Creed. Where is the unity that you see or notice in the Catholic Church? What am I missing?

Thanks!
I don’t remember what someone said in response, but I hope it was an accurate representation of Catholic thought (if not then, well, there are so many crazy things on the web, hopefully one more wouldn’t make much difference :o).
 
Perhaps you meant the doxology:

To suggest that those words represent a teaching that “the world is without end” is very peculiar. These words are a vintage English translation of the Latin in saecula saeculorum Greek in εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.
Yes, that is what I meant 😊

Okay, so it’s an outdated Old English phrase that used to mean “ages of ages”. Why not correct it the translation to meet modern English definitions? The Catholic Church had updated their English translation of the Bible already, & pays of the Norvus Ordo Mass, so why not also the prayers which, in addition to the Mass & the Bible, teach the Catholics what they believe?

The phrase “world to come” is correct theologically speaking because we are taught that through Tradition & the Bible that this world WILL come to an end & then there will be a new world (& new heavens) created by God.
 
Okay, so it’s an outdated Old English phrase that used to mean “ages of ages”. Why not correct it the translation to meet modern English definitions? The Catholic Church had updated their English translation of the Bible already, & pays of the Norvus Ordo Mass, so why not also the prayers which, in addition to the Mass & the Bible, teach the Catholics what they believe?
It is not Old English, but it has been in use for 400 years,it continues to be used in a very common prayer; the metaphor itself remains common in current English, and the meaning is thus still very clear, notwithstanding the peculiar meaning you thrust upon it - never heard that one before. There is no genuine reason to change it.
The phrase “world to come” is correct theologically speaking because we are taught that through Tradition & the Bible that this world WILL come to an end & then there will be a new world (& new heavens) created by God.
And that is exactly what is spoken of in the doxology; translating the word for “age” as “world” is not a problem.
 
And that is exactly what is spoken of in the doxology; translating the word for “age” as “world” is not a problem.
Massive Difference - in Roman Catholic in the doxology, it says this “world” will not end…that is false.
 
Massive Difference - in Roman Catholic in the doxology, it says this “world” will not end…that is false.
No it does not say "this ‘world’ " will not end. The teaching on the end of this world in the CC is clear. No one who knows Catholic teaching, or simply asked about it, would ever make the the peculiar misinterpretation of the doxology that you suggested on this thread. And now you know better too. That’s progress.
 
What I’m trying to say is that you can disconnect this man’s spirituality from his Christology, because the former flows from the latter.
Correction to the above statement of mine:

What I’m trying to say is that you can not disconnect this man’s spirituality from his Christology, because the former flows from the latter.
Rony,

I don’t really want to argue this point. I brought up Mar Isaac as a positive focus towards my Assyrian friend who was hurt that HH Pope Shenouda III had apparently said that we cannot accept the faith of the ACoE as being Orthodox, and a source of commonality between what are otherwise disparate traditions, not to argue with a different person on the internet. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but for whatever it’s worth, we do not make Mar Isaac into an Oriental Orthodox saint (in the sense of claiming that he is Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac Orthodox, etc.) so much as we recognize those teachings of his which we do accept as being Orthodox (same as the Byzantines do, also without accepting his Christology). So go ahead and continue to think it’s unhealthy. I don’t care. What the Orthodox Church has declared as being correct and true I recognize, and whatever others say I just can’t be bothered with, so all this piffle about “your OO church is not the standard by which blahblahblah” is needless antagonism and not appreciated nor warranted. I never once claimed to decide anything for the ACoE or other East Syrians, so go vent at somebody else. You are free to continue in your belief that all of the people recognized as saints by the ACoE but condemned by others are in fact saints. Nobody is stopping you, least of all me by recognizing that one from within the cultural, theological, and Christological world of the ACoE is also a saint to others who do not share all those things in common with the ACoE.
Thank you for your response. My main issue is the recognition that Mar Isaac’s Christology was not Miaphysite or Oriental Orthodox Christology. In the Catholic Church, this is not a problem, because we recognize that different, yet correct, Christological expressions can co-exist in the same Communion.

God bless,

Rony
 
In the Catholic Church, this is not a problem, because we recognize that different, yet correct, Christological expressions can co-exist in the same Communion.
One comment, Rony: I think it would be better said that the “Catholic Church has **NOW COME ** to recognize that different, yet correct, Christological expressions can co-exist…” That recognition is, as you know, quite recent, and certainly does not reflect the history of the Roman Church in most of the 2nd Millennium. 😉
 
Where are the Melkite Churches in CA? Is there an on-line directory?
Yes, there is an online listing of the USA Melkite churches. We are part of the Eparchy in Newton Massachusets:

www.melkite.org

Most of our Melkite parish communities are welcome to both Catholic and Orthodox Christians. There are nine (9) parish communities in California. I am certain the pastor of church closest to you would welcome you in sharing prayer and Divine Services.

About our spirituality? Our spirituality is based on direct Apostolic succession.

Sending you a private email this afternoon - please look for it.

God bless you, my sister in Jesus Christ! May our most holy Mother of God protect you!
 
One comment, Rony: I think it would be better said that the “Catholic Church has **NOW COME ** to recognize that different, yet correct, Christological expressions can co-exist…” That recognition is, as you know, quite recent, and certainly does not reflect the history of the Roman Church in most of the 2nd Millennium. 😉
As opposed to other churches that don’t. 😉
 
Thank you!
Yes, there is an online listing of the USA Melkite churches. We are part of the Eparchy in Newton Massachusets:

www.melkite.org

Most of our Melkite parish communities are welcome to both Catholic and Orthodox Christians. There are nine (9) parish communities in California. I am certain the pastor of church closest to you would welcome you in sharing prayer and Divine Services.

About our spirituality? Our spirituality is based on direct Apostolic succession.

Sending you a private email this afternoon - please look for it.

God bless you, my sister in Jesus Christ! May our most holy Mother of God protect you!
 
Massive Difference - in Roman Catholic in the doxology, it says this “world” will not end…that is false.
No it does not say "this ‘world’ " will not end. The teaching on the end of this world in the CC is clear. No one who knows Catholic teaching, or simply asked about it, would ever make the the peculiar misinterpretation of the doxology that you suggested on this thread. And now you know better too. That’s progress.
Just for what it’s worth, I’ve been following this back and forth, but I just can’t anymore. No offense to either of you. 😊🙂
 
Okay, so then who would assign us? How do they determine which nationalistic/ethnic Eastern Orthodox Church is closest to the Greek Orthodox Church? Or is it already pre-determined & if so, then which is the sui iuris church closest to Greek Orthodoxy?

Yes, I get that Catholics attend any parish they feel like attending regardless of the type/church/rite they are an actual member. The same is true for Orthodoxy - any Orthodox Christian can go & attend another Orthodox Church and receive the Sacraments - due to a dusty remodel of my Greek Orthodox parish, my youngest daughter was baptized in the Russian Church. I agree that this is cool - the ability to go & visit other parishes, but a Church-home is still needed.

Ethnicity really matters for several reasons including, but not limited to the difference of the types of* food* eaten during coffee hour & expected for us to prepare for fundraisers, language spoken among the people & during the liturgy and just the overall culture of the people.

I’m sure you’d understand that **we wouldn’t want to feel like aliens in our Church-home aka parish. **
With regards to your final remarks, I don’t get your fretting about ethnicity. Catholic means universal. Bring your own culture’s food to the coffee mornings and fundraisers and share your ethnicity with others, while also sharing theirs. Embrace the diversity of God’s people and share your culture and practices with your brothers and sisters in Christ. I have lived in different countries and settings and have ofttimes felt like the alien in my parish, but I always find that time spent as a member of any parish has led me along my spiritual path unerringly. Maybe we end up in the parish where our presence is needed and where there is work to do, both interiorly and for our neighbour.
 
Dear sister ITim215,

I think a more convincing (if I may use that word) way to approach this is through Scripture. Aside from the Scriptural exhortation in my signature line below, we need to consider carefully that St. Paul exhorted us to be of the same MIND. That is what Catholics try to do. We approach these matters as “what is really on your mind regarding these externals (i.e., things you do and the things you express)?” The opposite of uniatism is understanding, and that’s the goal of the Catholic Church. Nothing else but the spiritual fruit of understanding with humility will achieve our Lord’s command for unity The aphorism “lex credendi, lex orandi” is highly important, but, let’s be realistic. That statement won’t matter a whit if we do not first understand what we really mean by our expressions. Please ponder the following: Should unity consist of enforcing uniformity in the external expressions of our (common) Faith, or does it consist of understanding one another in the Traditional expressions/theologies we already use?

I’ll give you another example, if you don’t mind. The prayer “Mary save is” is such an extreme stumbling block to Protestants. What should be our course of action? Should we just give up this Tradition because it is on the face so hard for Protestants to accept, or do we work hard to help Protestants understand what is actually meant by that phrase?

I hope you don’t view my explanations as a proselytization. I’m just presenting the Catholic view, as asked.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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