Cooperation with evil - nuclear weapons

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An acquaintance of mine is US Navy and complained about allowing men and women to serve together on board submarines. He should know and never talked about what he did, but did mention the common behaviors he observed.
 
Do you actually believe what you said?
Yes, I have lived it. I know what safeguards are in place. You obviously have not and don’t know, yet you still persist as if you do.

And what if this argument was modified for use with abortion instead of deliberate targeting of civilians?
It would be comparing apples and oranges. Abortion is a civilian issue, not a military one. There is no duty to follow lawful orders. Abortion is also an individual issue, not a national issue. Abortion law might be national, but not the decision to have an abortion.

And overall, your arguments are “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” As I point out in post 77, the Vatican has had ample opportunity to deny communion to military people over the last 70 years for handling nuclear weapons, but it hasn’t and it won’t. Why do you think you are smarter than seven Popes?
 
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JimG said:
In May, 1983, the NCCB (Nation Conference of Catholic Bishops, predecessor to the USCCB), published a pastoral letter on nuclear war and nuclear deterrence. In it, they accepted the idea of nuclear deterrence as a way of avoiding nuclear war…
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If you consider 70 years “temporary” with no path to disarmament in site. The truth is that disarmament can’t happen as long as Russia, Iran, N. Korea and who knows who else have nukes with hostile intent and won’t give them up and agree to have that disarmament verified. The Vatican itself could be one of the early casualties of a unilateral disarmament. Even though the Vatican is not a member of NATO, Italy is and that provides the Vatican with protection. Is anyone really ready to trust Iran’s good will?
 
Yes, I sort of chuckled about that myself. The temporary measure of deterrence has worked for a good long while. If our deterrence is inadequate, war will become more likely.
 
jfz178 said:
Yes, I have lived it. I know what safeguards are in place. You obviously have not and don’t know, yet you still persist as if you know.
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Naturally, I meant your obvious misinterpretation of meaning of “indiscriminate destruction”. Did you really persuade yourself that it means anything anywhere close to “not having enough signatures on the order”?

Can you really read “Gaudium et Spes” (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html) paragraph 80, Catechism paragraphs 2314-2315 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P81.HTM), and say that it is just the imperfect process of passing orders that is being condemned, and not targeting of civilians?
jfz178 said:
It would be comparing apples and oranges. Abortion is a civilian issue, not a military one. There is no duty to follow lawful orders. Abortion is an individual issue, not a national issue. Abortion law might be national, but not the decision to have an abortion.
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So, no actual flaw in my argument has been found.

And even if the difference between “individual issue” and “national issue” was relevant, some other countries do try to make sure that a doctor could not lawfully refuse to carry out an abortion (see Abortion and the "clean hands morality" - #8 by magnusbar for example). There it is (or would be) a matter of following “lawful” orders or not.

So, at least in this case, do you see how the argument you offered would lead to absurd conclusion that pro-lifers are just as responsible for abortions, as the ones who perform it?
jfz178 said:
And overall, your arguments are “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” As I point out in post 77, the Vatican has had ample opportunity to deny communion to military people over the last 70 years for handling nuclear weapons, but it hasn’t and it won’t. Why do you think you are smarter than seven Popes?
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May I remind you that I am arguing against denying communion in similar cases?

My position is based on possibility of different intentions (trying to target legitimate military targets or bluffing).

And the problem is that you claim not to have such intentions and really really really do not like the conclusion that if it really was so (it is not certain that you know what intentions you had), then there was something at least potentially sinful about it.

And so, we get a series of excuses - how you “know” that every single soldier and politician had the same wrong intentions, how the clearly formulated documents of the Church do not mean what they say, how you know something so important, that it changes everything…

Those excuses are silly, and you should see that.

Also, it is not like you have much to lose here. Just go to confession, say the “Our Father” or anything else that the priest will assign, and everything is going to be fine. God will forgive, just as people you would have targeted. I can be expected to know something about this last one - after all, I do live in the territory that would have targeted. 🙂
 
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Your efforts to convince me have been no more successful than my attempts to convince you. And they never will be. I don’t take pastoral advice from faceless people on the internet. So we are done.
 
I think you’re insisting in making an argument where none exists.
  1. Nuclear Weapons are a deterrent.
  2. There are good reasons why they have not been used since 1945, so you have no argument.
  3. In ancient times up to every war fought, civilian deaths have occurred, so what’s the argument? These deaths were not caused by nuclear weapons. The atomic bombs dropped on Japan fell on carefully selected targets. They were not the only possible targets.
  4. Weapon accuracy has improved greatly with the use of drones and GPS guidance, minimizing civilian casualties or eliminating them in some cases.
  5. The capability currently exists for the US, and a few other countries, to intercept various weapons in the air over areas without civilians.
Targeting has improved. Drones with cameras can spot threats and eliminate those threats while their operators sit in bunkers in undisclosed locations. And more advanced drone aircraft are coming into service plus, for example, lasers weapons on naval vessels.
 
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jfz178 said:
My point is that every US Catholic should be held responsible for the US nuclear posture.
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That is just absurd. I utterly reject that premise. That is just like saying you hold all of Islam responsible for the small group that wears suicide belts into a crowded cafe. That you hold nice old Episcopalian women responsible for the errors of the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, that the starving peasants in North Korea should be held responsible for what Kim Jon Un does.
 
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That is just absurd. I utterly reject that premise. That is just like saying you hold all of Islam responsible for the small group that wears suicide belts into a crowded cafe. That you hold nice old Episcopalian women responsible for the errors of the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, that the starving peasants in North Korea should be held responsible for what Kim Jon Un does.
Completely different scenarios, no relation. All of Islam does not elect and fund the suicide bomber. The old women do not elect the Archbishop, although they may fund him. No one in N. Korea has any control over Kim Jon Un.

But in the US, we know exactly what our leaders are doing. Our leaders only get their authority to do the things they do because of elections where we get to choose, and we fund what they do. Those other examples do not represent governments “of the people, by the people and for the people.” We are the people. We are responsible. Although I really should have said all citizens are responsible, including the Catholic citizens.
 
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No one will know what the government knows. What the intelligence they are getting tells them. Not today. Maybe 20 or 30 years from now, and only about 10% of the iceberg. No one will stop paying their taxes over this. And even though attempts have been made to audit the Pentagon, nothing happened. We the people have no idea where the money went.

Sure, our leaders send our people to war. That’s all we really know.
 
I disagree. We know:
  • How many nukes the country has.
  • At least the published figures for what they can do, which are not that far off.
  • Our country’s “just war” principles and safeguards
  • Lots more
We can also do content analysis on what is published in the media. Read up on it. It’s how a lot of foreign intelligence gets their info, and completely legal. You look more at how much media time gets devoted to something than what is actually said. It really helped us with the Nazis in WWII and it is still valid.

I think a lot of people just give up on keeping track of their government, but you can find out a lot more than you think. Look at what Tom Clancy did with “Hunt for Red October.” He was an insurance guy and got his stuff open source. But it was so accurate, he got grilled by the FBI about where he got it.

And and no matter what opinions you form, no matter what you get passionate about changing, there will be a group out there you can participate in that is furthering that cause. Government can be influenced. I takes more work than it should for a government who is supposed to represent us, but I have seen it done.
 
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jfz178 said:
All of Islam does not elect and fund the suicide bomber
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We Catholics are forced to pay our taxes. As if we could direct were our tax payments go.
jfz178 said:
But in the US, we know exactly what our leaders are doing.
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And I suppose that all of Islam doesn’t know what THEIR leaders are doing?

So what are we to do to absolve our culpability in your eyes? Stop paying taxes and have our wages garnished? Renounce our citizenship? Please enlighten us as to what nation we can move to, get citizenship, get jobs that meets with your approval?
jfz178 said:
No one in N. Korea has any control over Kim Jon Un.
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Do you think we have control over the nuclear apparatus of the United States? Those nukes were already there when most of us were born. We have about as much control over the nukes as we did over slavery, which incidentally my family fought against shortly after getting here from France.

Let me go ahead and apologize to you now for being so harsh and abrupt, but honestly to condemn Catholics and even other ordinary citizens for nuclear arms that none of us are responsible for is just uncalled for. Please, think about what you say before making such sweeping statements. The cat is out of the bag. Nukes are an ugly presence here, and represent a grave danger, and everyone knows it.

America, Russia and Israel are working on technologies that may jointly make nukes obsolete one day. Not now, but one day. The missile defense shields are in their infancy right now. China will follow suit one day, then maybe others. Then, then, we might be able to rid ourselves of these things.

My Grandfather never got to vote for the Manhattan Project. Einstein never sent us a postcard asking for our approval on splitting the atom. The Congress wasn’t jointly informed that we were going to start a nuclear arms race, and I am quite sure it wasn’t on their election platforms either.

Please… think about that ok?

Pax. And Merry Christmas. [really, I mean it]🙂
 
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“:Responsibility” doesn’t always have choice or consent attached to it. If something is being done in your name, and you know about it, you are responsible. If a tree in your yard falls on a neighbor’s house in a windstorm, you are going to be held responsible, even though you didn’t know it was going to happen and didn’t cause it to happen. You’re responsible because it’s your tree. Similarly, if you are US citizen, it is literally your country.

If you feel strongly about nukes, what are you doing about it besides complaining?
  • Do you write and call your elected representatives about it regularly?
  • Do you keep yourself as informed on the topic as a citizen can be?
  • Do you vote in every election?
  • Do you belong to activist groups that champion your position?
That stuff works. I do those things for a cause I feel passionate about and I see change. Not as much or as fast as I would like, but it definitely happens. Taking responsibility is not easy, but it can be done. As the saying goes, the electorate always gets the government it deserves.
 
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I spent a huge amount of time studying the 1983 Bishops’ letter. The ironic thing about the Catholic bishops’ letter is that it does not include ANY reference at all to the use of prayer.
 
There is a book that discusses and shows ALL U.S. nuclear weapons.

It WAS Top Secret.

But now you can buy it from Amazon.

AND it is printed in China!

I will post the title later today.
 
I’ll be watching.

That would interest me in several ways.

GKMotley, USAF, ret.
 
“Nuclear Weapons of the United States - An Illustrated History”

by James N. Gibson

copyright 1996

Printed in China.

236 pages.

14 chapters.

Beautiful printing job.
 
I thank you.

Recently ordered a book on Japan’s technological programs, in WWII. This should be next.
 
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