Copernius, Galileo wrong. Church right. Any apologies?

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I think the main issue may be more about business as usual rather than deliberate opposition.

Wherever revelation appears to make a prediction about the natural world, and the prediction is brought into question by evidence, the issue is that nature can’t lie, and this leads to schism. Some will say that revelation must be reinterpreted on that point, others that it is plain wrong, others that the evidence must be reinterpreted, and so on. Everyone goes off into huddles.
Revelation, as it is used above, is miles away from the Catholic use of Divine Revelation. However, establishing a huddle could be viewed as being similar to a Catholic major ecumenical council.
Examples include all the various views on cosmology (geocentrism etc.)
Pardon me. But these examples are not Catholic doctrines. Maybe my thousand posts on that subject were missed.
and human origins (creationism etc.).
Divine Revelation does acknowledge that human beings exist with the goal of joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision.
A more important example, because it affects real people now, is interpreting the empirical evidence on homosexuality - there have been a huge number of threads in the Social Justice forum with all manner of divisions.
Pardon me. Interpretation of empirical evidence is not Divine Revelation as used by the Catholic Church.
This is not to discuss those issues here, just to say that every so often science has and will act as a fragmentation grenade on one religion or another by simply going about its business.
The key is that the business of “science” is conducted properly and interpreted correctly. In general, “conducted properly” means that conclusions are warranted by the examined evidence which includes materials and methods. Given the nature of material/physical nature, often conclusions are probable. One needs to remember that probable conclusions, valuable in themselves, do not dogmatically rule out all possibilities.
 
To wit: did you know that a pope of recent history wrote a book called Jesus of Nazareth in which he speculates that the Gospel of John was not written by the Apostle John?

Now, in your understanding, since this is written by a pope, are you of the impression that this is an infallible teaching? If it’s not infallible, is it a fallible teaching of the Church?

Answer: it’s none of the above. It’s not even a teaching of the Church.

Even if it was written by a pope.
Excuse me for chimming in here PRmerger. I haven’t read the book but the
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is supporting the book on their website so I don’t think you are telling the truth.

“November 21, 2012
Publishes “The Infancy of Jesus” completing his “Jesus of Nazareth” trilogy. The book was translated into 20 languages including English, French, Spanish and Polish”
usccb.org/about/leadership/holy-see/benedict-xvi/pope-benedict-xvi-timeline-2012-2013.cfm

Also,The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops states beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium
  1. Why is there no contradiction between faith and science?
    159
    Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in God. It is God himself who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium/index.cfm

So all that I have written prior to this message on this topic is in agreement with the USCCB. Thank you.
I am not sure what you are saying here.

Are you saying that the Holy Father Emeritus’ book,* Jesus of Nazareth,* is not Pope Benedict’s personal theological opinion, but rather is an exercise of the magisterium?

That is, you are saying that his book Jesus of Nazareth is de fide Catholic teaching?
As I have given LogisticsBranch numerous opportunities to correct her error, and she has not made herself amenable to this, I want to point out her egregious misrepresentation.

The book Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedcit XVI DOES NOT REPRESENT CHURCH TEACHING. Even if it is sold on the USCCB website bookstore (which, frankly, is an absurd criterion for determining whether something is an exercise of the magisterium or not.)

Pope B16 writes quite clearly that it is definitely NOT a teaching of the magisterium. In the forward to the book, the Holy Father states (bold mine): "It goes without saying that this book** in no way is an exercise of the magisterium **but is solely an expression of my personal search “for the face of the Lord (Psalm 27:8)”
 
Revelation, as it is used above, is miles away from the Catholic use of Divine Revelation. However, establishing a huddle could be viewed as being similar to a Catholic major ecumenical council.

Pardon me. But these examples are not Catholic doctrines. Maybe my thousand posts on that subject were missed.
Pardon me for knowing to duck when seeing a pardon me from your good self, as it is inevitably followed by a high velocity baseball bat. :frighten:

I fear you misunderstood. My fault, I didn’t make myself clear. I wasn’t looking to have an argument and wasn’t talking of Church doctrine. Obviously there can only be set of doctrines.

I was posting about how science impacts on laity’s understanding of revelation, how it produces factions having little wars. In my first church, discussion of evolution was banned within the church grounds because of the conflict it caused. People sitting in huddles, upset that other huddles didn’t share their view. Discussion is banned here also.

In that particular case there is no Church doctrine as I understand it, and so people are free to join any huddle they wish. But there weren’t any huddles before modern science, everyone had the same view. So science has a tendency to produce huddles were there were none before. That was my point.
 
Pardon me for knowing to duck when seeing a pardon me from your good self, as it is inevitably followed by a high velocity baseball bat. :frighten:

I fear you misunderstood. My fault, I didn’t make myself clear. I wasn’t looking to have an argument and wasn’t talking of Church doctrine. Obviously there can only be set of doctrines.

I was posting about how science impacts on laity’s understanding of revelation, how it produces factions having little wars. In my first church, discussion of evolution was banned within the church grounds because of the conflict it caused. People sitting in huddles, upset that other huddles didn’t share their view. Discussion is banned here also.

In that particular case there is no Church doctrine as I understand it, and so people are free to join any huddle they wish. But there weren’t any huddles before modern science, everyone had the same view. So science has a tendency to produce huddles were there were none before. That was my point.
Point well taken.

However, I keep finding a few Catholics who must have been napping during religion class. So, I try to be precise about the “differences” found in Catholicism.

To make up – here is something for you which is not a baseball bat.

:flowers:
 
I am not a “creationist” and I am not a proponent of Intelligent Design theory. Nonetheless, I have found some *personal *good in the general Intelligent Design movement.

From a scientific view, Homo sapiens is solely a material, physical decomposing living organism. This scientific view is acceptable in the medical arena. When this view spills over into the spiritual arena, then I am a Catholic who understands, accepts, and believes that all humankind descended from two, real, sole, fully-complete human founders.
Yes, you are a creationist!
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
"Teaching intelligent design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) because intelligent design is not science and “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

Furthermore, There is no such thing as Intelligent Design Theory:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.
Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). Like these other foundational scientific theories, the theory of evolution is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by new evidence. However, like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is subject to continuing refinement as new areas of science emerge or as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not possible previously.
One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. The evolutionary biologists who discovered Tiktaalik predicted that they would find fossils intermediate between fish and limbed terrestrial animals in sediments that were about 375 million years old. Their discovery confirmed the prediction made on the basis of evolutionary theory. In turn, confirmation of a prediction increases confidence in that theory.
In science, a “fact” typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term “fact” to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.
nationalacademies.org/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

People can view my entire contributions to this topic: messages #326, 324, 322, 318, 307, 303, 298, 235, 222, 146, 143, 141, 135, 94, 86, 84. I highly recommend people open the links that I provided throughout this topic. Even Pope Paul declared he was a homo sapien to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and that the bible was the way to go to Heaven! Some individuals here have been attacking The Pontifical Academy of Sciences!:mad:
 
Yes, you are a creationist!
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
"Teaching intelligent design in public school biology classes violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States (and Article I, Section 3 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution) because intelligent design is not science and “cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District
Thanks for the info. Not sure how a trial in a state in which I do not live makes me a “creationist.” But then, I am not familiar with what all the word “creationist” entails. If creationist means that God is the Creator, then, of course, you may say that I am a creationist. 👍
Furthermore, There is no such thing as Intelligent Design Theory:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.
Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). Like these other foundational scientific theories, the theory of evolution is supported by so many observations and confirming experiments that scientists are confident that the basic components of the theory will not be overturned by new evidence. However, like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is subject to continuing refinement as new areas of science emerge or as new technologies enable observations and experiments that were not possible previously.
One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed. For example, the theory of gravitation predicted the behavior of objects on the moon and other planets long before the activities of spacecraft and astronauts confirmed them. The evolutionary biologists who discovered Tiktaalik predicted that they would find fossils intermediate between fish and limbed terrestrial animals in sediments that were about 375 million years old. Their discovery confirmed the prediction made on the basis of evolutionary theory. In turn, confirmation of a prediction increases confidence in that theory.
In science, a “fact” typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term “fact” to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.
nationalacademies.org/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

People can view my entire contributions to this topic: messages #326, 324, 322, 318, 307, 303, 298, 235, 222, 146, 143, 141, 135, 94, 86, 84. I highly recommend people open the links that I provided throughout this topic. Even Pope Paul declared he was a homo sapien to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and that the bible was the way to go to Heaven! Some individuals here have been attacking The Pontifical Academy of Sciences!:mad:
While I am not a scientist per se, I do understand the scientific (inductive) method. In addition, I do know the difference between probable and possible as it applies to paleoanthropology which has entered a fascinating period of complexity due to some amazing discoveries. Occasionally, both *Nature *and Science journals include the background chatter.

For general information. There are at least two mechanisms involved with the human species which directly oppose Catholic doctrines. One is that the human species originated as a population which diverged from a previous population, and the other is the emergence or epiphenomenon explanation for the spiritual principle in human nature.
 
I think the main issue may be more about business as usual rather than deliberate opposition.

Wherever revelation appears to make a prediction about the natural world, and the prediction is brought into question by evidence, the issue is that nature can’t lie, and this leads to schism. Some will say that revelation must be reinterpreted on that point, others that it is plain wrong, others that the evidence must be reinterpreted, and so on. Everyone goes off into huddles.

Examples include all the various views on cosmology (geocentrism etc.) and human origins (creationism etc.). A more important example, because it affects real people now, is interpreting the empirical evidence on homosexuality - there have been a huge number of threads in the Social Justice forum with all manner of divisions.

This is not to discuss those issues here, just to say that every so often science has and will act as a fragmentation grenade on one religion or another by simply going about its business.
Glad to hear you say that :" nature can’t lie. " 😉

Linus2nd
 
Sorry, I accidently forgot the “s” that is now noted in red.😃 But other forks here would have known that if they had opened the link. God isn’t used in science courses at Notra Dame. Obviously, their isn’t any priests that have a problem with that nor any Pope.
I don’t think I would go that far.
I’ll end this topic by stating that I’m a little over 60 years old and did not attend a Catholic elemenary (K-6 grades, junior high school (7-8 grades), or high school (9-12), or a Catholic University. I went to public schools and went to a non-Catholic University. I leaned about Galileo and Charles Darwin when I was in 6th grade. Religon was most definately not part of any of those schools or the University I attended. 😃 The same goes for my husband. There definately was and still is a separtion between Church and state.🙂
Science has remained separate in Catholic Universities from what I understand by friends of mine who attended them.
But this is not true in all Catholic Colleges and Universities, only in the more liberal ones.

Linus2nd
 
For general information. There are at least two mechanisms involved with the human species which directly oppose Catholic doctrines. One is that the human species originated as a population which diverged from a previous population, and the other is the emergence or epiphenomenon explanation for the spiritual principle in human nature.

Well, like I said before there is no conflict between science and faith. There are many highly educated Catholics and Catholic scientists along with non-Catholic scientists that accept evolution and reject the Intelligent Design Movement. Catholic scientists still go to Church and the priests don’t seem to have a problem with it as much as you do. I’m done with this topic now!
 
Well, like I said before there is no conflict between science and faith. There are many highly educated Catholics and Catholic scientists along with non-Catholic scientists that accept evolution and reject the Intelligent Design Movement. Catholic scientists still go to Church and the priests don’t seem to have a problem with it as much as you do. I’m done with this topic now!
In order for there to be no conflict between science and Catholicism, science has to be conducted properly and Catholic doctrines have to be properly understood.

Unfortunately, there are Catholics, including clergy, who have decided that it is time for the Catholic Church to update Divine Revelation to comport with their modern ideas. It is no problem for them to manipulate science so to deny foundational Catholic doctrines. Like wolves in sheep’s clothing.

It is a compliment to me that you recognize that I understand the problems associated with the current movement to undermine Catholicism from within.

Divine Revelation, properly understood, trumps.
 
More than a lack of conflict. Each should not be separate, but singing the harmony of truth as many voices of a single choir.

The devil has us lowering our expectations to nothing more than a quite tolerance.
 
My hopes for Karl are that, given a little time to digest this, that he will start to see that things are much different in cosmology then he had been led to believe, and that the moral and spiritual dimensions concerned with science itself actually awakening to the fact that the earth may be in a special place in the universe are staggering to say the least.

Maybe even the acidic and corrosive Mark Shea might start to change his limited world view? Hey, with God, anything is possible! 🙂
 
And Rick DeLano’s geocentric crew continue their huckster’s disinformation marketing campaign. :rolleyes:

At least you guys are consistent.

If anyone wants to wade through all of the falsehoods and the disinformation marketing campaign that the geocentrists were caught in, including lying about Karl Keating supposedly not seeing the movie before writing his review of The Principle, it’s all over at Steve Ray’s FB page:

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511

Go down into the comments, starting about August 7th.

**Me **(Aug 7 at 6:08 pm): “Robert Sungenis…we’re supposed to believe that your movie about cosmology, which mentions geocentrism several times according to Karl Keating (I just noticed on his FB page that he wrote a review of it) really wasn’t intended to help lead people to geocentrism? Here’s Keating’s review: Redirecting...

Robert Sungenis (Aug 8 at 5:05 pm): “Wes, let me deal with Keating first. Here is the bold, brute, fact you need to consider: Karl Keating hasn’t seen the movie. Period. End of story. So any “review” he gives is simply from his own biased imagination.”

Karl Keating (Aug 8 at 6:38 pm): “As usual, Bob Sungenis (unlike Galileo) is wrong. I DID view “The Principle” in its entirety…I guess Sungenis didn’t read the review I posted at my Facebook page. If he had, he would have seen, at the end, that I listed the names of several people who are given “Special Thanks” at the end of the credit roll. How could I have known who appeared in the credits unless I had seen the movie? That should have been enough for Sungenis not to have put his foot in his mouth.”

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511?comment_id=837029966314984&offset=50&total_comments=341

But it got even worse. After Sungenis realized he was caught falsely accusing Keating of being a liar, he basically complained to Karl and me, “how could I have known he recently saw the movie and wrote a review?”

:confused: How? How about because I had already told him that Karl recently posted review and even gave him a link to it before he made his false accusation? Look at my above comment to Sungenis, which he responded to, so he obviously read it.

Did Sungenis apologize? No. And to make it even worse, then his marketing director, Rick DeLano, jumped in with more lies about Keating, threatening him with legal action because DeLano claimed Keating watched The Principle illegally. He also insulted Catholic Answers’ ethical standards. Keating proved that DeLano didn’t know what he was talking about. They had done nothing wrong at all in watching The Principle.

And did DeLano apologize? No. He just changed the subject and went right back to being the Hollywood marketing huckster that he is. And then, even after Keating made it clear that they don’t have permission to use his name to promote The Principle? DeLano’s answer was classic:
We will use whatever we like, Karl, since you used our film. Sue me.
~ Rick DeLano.

But you guys expect people to take you seriously? You complain about how unfair everyone is to you? Seriously? :rolleyes:
 
And Rick DeLano’s geocentric crew continue their huckster’s disinformation marketing campaign. If nothing else, you guys are consistent. :rolleyes:

If anyone wants to wade through all of the falsehoods and the disinformation marketing campaign that the geocentrists were caught in, including lying about Karl Keating supposedly not seeing the movie before writing his review of The Principle, it’s all over at Steve Ray’s FB page:

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511

Go down into the comments, starting about August 7th.

**Me **(Aug 7 at 6:08 pm): “Robert Sungenis…we’re supposed to believe that your movie about cosmology, which mentions geocentrism several times according to Karl Keating (I just noticed on his FB page that he wrote a review of it) really wasn’t intended to help lead people to geocentrism? Here’s Keating’s review: Redirecting...

Robert Sungenis (Aug 8 at 5:05 pm): “Wes, let me deal with Keating first. Here is the bold, brute, fact you need to consider: Karl Keating hasn’t seen the movie. Period. End of story. So any “review” he gives is simply from his own biased imagination.”

Karl Keating (Aug 8 at 6:38 pm): “As usual, Bob Sungenis (unlike Galileo) is wrong. I DID view “The Principle” in its entirety…I guess Sungenis didn’t read the review I posted at my Facebook page. If he had, he would have seen, at the end, that I listed the names of several people who are given “Special Thanks” at the end of the credit roll. How could I have known who appeared in the credits unless I had seen the movie? That should have been enough for Sungenis not to have put his foot in his mouth.”

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511?comment_id=837029966314984&offset=50&total_comments=341

But it got even worse. After Sungenis realized he was caught falsely accusing Keating of being a liar, he basically complained to Karl and me, “how could I have known he recently saw the movie and wrote a review?”

:confused: How? How about because I had already told him that Karl recently posted review and even gave him a link to it before he made his false accusation? Look at my above comment to Sungenis, which he responded to, so he obviously read it.

Did Sungenis apologize? No. And to make it even worse, then his marketing director, Rick DeLano, jumped in with more lies about Keating, threatening him with legal action because DeLano claimed Keating watched The Principle illegally. He also insulted Catholic Answers’ ethical standards and called Keating “a demonstrated and malicious liar”. Keating proved that DeLano didn’t know what he was talking about. Catholic Answers had done nothing wrong at all in watching The Principle.

And did DeLano apologize? No. He just changed the subject and went right back to being the Hollywood marketing huckster that he is. And then, even after Keating made it clear that they don’t have permission to use his name to promote The Principle? DeLano’s answer was classic:
We will use whatever we like, Karl, since you used our film. Sue me.
~ Rick DeLano.

But you guys expect people to take you seriously and you complain so much about how unfair everyone is to you after you act like this. Come on.
 
And Rick DeLano’s geocentric crew continue their huckster’s disinformation marketing campaign. If nothing else, you guys are consistent. :rolleyes:

If anyone wants to wade through all of the falsehoods and the disinformation marketing campaign that the geocentrists were caught in, including lying about Karl Keating supposedly not seeing the movie before writing his review of The Principle, it’s all over at Steve Ray’s FB page:

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511

Go down into the comments, starting about August 7th.

**Me **(Aug 7 at 6:08 pm): “Robert Sungenis…we’re supposed to believe that your movie about cosmology, which mentions geocentrism several times according to Karl Keating (I just noticed on his FB page that he wrote a review of it) really wasn’t intended to help lead people to geocentrism? Here’s Keating’s review: Redirecting...

Robert Sungenis (Aug 8 at 5:05 pm): “Wes, let me deal with Keating first. Here is the bold, brute, fact you need to consider: Karl Keating hasn’t seen the movie. Period. End of story. So any “review” he gives is simply from his own biased imagination.”

Karl Keating (Aug 8 at 6:38 pm): “As usual, Bob Sungenis (unlike Galileo) is wrong. I DID view “The Principle” in its entirety…I guess Sungenis didn’t read the review I posted at my Facebook page. If he had, he would have seen, at the end, that I listed the names of several people who are given “Special Thanks” at the end of the credit roll. How could I have known who appeared in the credits unless I had seen the movie? That should have been enough for Sungenis not to have put his foot in his mouth.”

facebook.com/CatholicConvert/posts/825411364143511?comment_id=837029966314984&offset=50&total_comments=341

But it got even worse. After Sungenis realized he was caught falsely accusing Keating of being a liar, he basically complained to Karl and me, “how could I have known he recently saw the movie and wrote a review?”

:confused: How? How about because I had already told him that Karl recently posted review and even gave him a link to it before he made his false accusation? Look at my above comment to Sungenis, which he responded to, so he obviously read it.

Did Sungenis apologize? No. And to make it even worse, then his marketing director, Rick DeLano, jumped in with more lies about Keating, threatening him with legal action because DeLano claimed Keating watched The Principle illegally. He also insulted Catholic Answers’ ethical standards and called Keating “a demonstrated and malicious liar”. Keating proved that DeLano was completely wrong and didn’t know what he was talking about. Catholic Answers had done nothing wrong at all in watching The Principle.

And did DeLano apologize? No. He just changed the subject and went right back to being the Hollywood marketing huckster that he is, promoting his movie. And then, even after Keating made it clear that they don’t have permission to use his name to promote The Principle? DeLano’s answer was classic:
We will use whatever we like, Karl, since you used our film. Sue me.
~ Rick DeLano.

But you guys expect people to take you seriously and you complain so much about how unfair everyone is to you after you act like this? Come on.
 
Hildegaard has been suspended:
  1. for claiming that I “backtracked on [my] criticism” of the movie The Principle,
  2. for claiming that I “backtracked” also on my “thoughts related to the topic of geocentrism [that I] had 10 years or so ago,” and
  3. for posting an image, with overlaid text taken out of context, intended to make it seem that I endorse The Principle.
What Hildegaard asserts is untrue. I haven’t change my opinion of the movie or of geocentrism at all, and I do not endorse the movie.

(Hildegaard’s objectionable post has been removed.)
 
Hildegaard has been suspended:
  1. for claiming that I “backtracked on [my] criticism” of the movie The Principle,
  2. for claiming that I “backtracked” also on my “thoughts related to the topic of geocentrism [that I] had 10 years or so ago,” and
  3. for posting an image, with overlaid text taken out of context, intended to make it seem that I endorse The Principle.
What Hildegaard asserts is untrue. I haven’t change my opinion of the movie or of geocentrism at all, and I do not endorse the movie.

(Hildegaard’s objectionable post has been removed.)
It really annoys me when a whole bunch of people I have a huge great deal of respect for are not able to get along over a subject that is seemingly complex but is actually really simple. If I could bring anyone back from heaven to facilitate this difference it would be Robert Bellarmine.
 
I would also like to add one thing, it is impossible to argue against geo-centricism. I have seen some try, but they fail, it is a vain attempt, but well done for trying, but the bottom line is it is impossible to argue against geo-centricism. There is no argument capable of doing that, and that is because it is a perfectly valid way of explaining the observable universe. Since it is a perfectly valid way of explaining the universe and it fits all the rules of observation, I don’t see any need to deny it as a valid explanation of the way things work. It is certainly far more simpler than the Capernican model it involves far less mechanics.

For some reason when someone says “geo-centricism” the response is “so the earth is flat”. Is that an ethical response, or is it just simply a conditioned reflect action?
 
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