Copernius, Galileo wrong. Church right. Any apologies?

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I’m talking about weird cures in which a shaman breathes into a seizing child’s doll and the status epilepticus ceases.

Or a shaman predicting that if the mother fails to eat the ginger root she’s craving her child will be born with an extra digit…and so it happens.

There’s some really freaky stuff out there. Inexplicable stuff.

Stuff most definitely NOT explained by science.
I see where you’re coming from but imho the problem with saying that something is in principle inexplicable is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as we then don’t even try to explain it.

I think we have a moral obligation to research any potential cure. Partly to try to avoid unnecessary suffering caused by charlatans, and partly to find out how the effective cures work to make them more widely available.
 
One need not rely on proof logic or common sense. Medical science is grounded in truth. It is contrary to logic to take Medical science as the only truth.

A causes B, therefore only A can cause B??

Science is not always blind and it is not the sole deposit of truth in the world. That was my only point.
Agreed :).
 
Come on now, I was right on all those counts, if you think I was in error then please give evidence.

Anyway, I’m glad we agree that Ellis’ piece of speculative math was not published recently but 35 years’ ago. It’s falsifiable too, if you read it. I didn’t check to see if subsequent measurements disprove it, as I couldn’t spot many citations and anyway he sketches a bifocal, not geocentric, universe.

35 years is a long time in cosmology, and he looks to have only be dreaming of a what-if anyway, so I looked at a generalist lecture he gave recently, to a select little audience at the Copernicus 🙂 Center in Krakow.

Interesting for anyone who likes philosophy and science btw.
youtube.com/watch?v=tq8-eLGpEHc

It’s titled On The Nature Of Cosmology Today. He starts by summarizing what is known for certain. Those of a nervous disposition should look away now. He says we definitely know the universe is expanding. And there’s dark energy. And dark matter. And the big bang. And the CBR vindicates physics now is the same as back then. Which for sure must have been 13 billion years ago. And, a bit later, biological evolution. And so on. 👍

Then he talks about what is hypothetical, and how muliiverse proponents want to downgrade science to accept untestable hypotheses. He thinks that’s a huge step backwards “to the pre-Galileo times” 👍. Because, he says, that would take us back to when speculative, untested and possibly untestable hypotheses were accepted as true. And “If you abandon testability you have left science and are in the realm of philosophy.”

He then goes into how the claims by Dawkins, Hawking and Krauss that quantum field theory somehow explains why there is something rather than nothing are not science 👍.

He comments on the nature of existence and even the limits of free will, then he makes some claims about the existence of the physical law, math, and ethics, and the sum of the parts being greater than the whole, and (his belief) in the existence of God.

He rattles along on all kinds of stuff.

But wait. He never mentions that 1978 paper.
He does agree with me on the multiverse. The fact he does no mention the 1978 paper means nothing. Come on, how many papers has he written in his career!

But the point you are missing, is that inflation models are not working due to the results of WMAP and Planck, and the new inflation models being proposed imply a multiverse. This is the main point, and Ellis is on board with this issue.
 
Not sure about the Earth, but I’m certain that our world is ‘very flat,’ as the Church once taught.

LOVE! ❤️
 
I can’t find anything credible which supports the claim made by the OP. The Planck sat data confirms the existing cosmological model, with more precision than we have previously had. It also points to some previously unknown asymmetries, which are yet to be explained. It appears that the universe is older than previously theorized. Hubble’s constant which describes the rate of expansion may need to be revised. There is some support seen for the multiverse theory. But, there is nothing which suggests that the widely held cosmological model is incorrect in any significant way, as has been suggested by the OP.
 
Well, isn’t this more of a compromise? The earth revolves around the sun and the earth is the center of the universe. It is certainly embarrassing to those who would like to believe that we aren’t special, we just happened to have had the right circumstances (which cannot be described or replicated.) to form life.
Earth has the right circumstances to sustain life not form it. God did the “forming” of both. God Bless, Memaw
 
He does agree with me on the multiverse. The fact he does no mention the 1978 paper means nothing. Come on, how many papers has he written in his career!

But the point you are missing, is that inflation models are not working due to the results of WMAP and Planck, and the new inflation models being proposed imply a multiverse. This is the main point, and Ellis is on board with this issue.
It means that in talking about cosmology today on a world stage, he never mentions geocentrism. He takes the opportunity to say he’s a Christian. But not a geocentrist.

He does say that going back to the pre-Galileo times would be a step backwards, so he obviously doesn’t support the OP.

Now whether an inflation model works or not is hardly a crisis. Laypeople can’t get upset about every tiff in every branch of academia. What are we supposed to do, choose which model is true by phone-in?

Although personally I’d like the team with the beige shirts to win. Beige is the new black. :cool:
 
Not sure about the Earth, but I’m certain that our world is ‘very flat,’ as the Church once taught.

LOVE! ❤️
Was that an attempt at sarcasm, or is there a point behind the comment?

Also, the church (i.e., magesterium) has never taught the world is flat.
 
I see where you’re coming from but imho the problem with saying that something is in principle inexplicable is that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as we then don’t even try to explain it.
Here, “inexplicable” means “not explicable via empirical studies”.

There is, of course, some explanation.

But science isn’t the source of that explanation.
 
It means that in talking about cosmology today on a world stage, he never mentions geocentrism. He takes the opportunity to say he’s a Christian. But not a geocentrist.

He does say that going back to the pre-Galileo times would be a step backwards, so he obviously doesn’t support the OP.

Now whether an inflation model works or not is hardly a crisis. Laypeople can’t get upset about every tiff in every branch of academia. What are we supposed to do, choose which model is true by phone-in?

Although personally I’d like the team with the beige shirts to win. Beige is the new black. :cool:
😉
Personally, I want the team with the black shirts to win. Black is the new beige.
 
I can’t find anything credible which supports the claim made by the OP. The Planck sat data confirms the existing cosmological model, with more precision than we have previously had. It also points to some previously unknown asymmetries, which are yet to be explained. It appears that the universe is older than previously theorized. Hubble’s constant which describes the rate of expansion may need to be revised. There is some support seen for the multiverse theory. But, there is nothing which suggests that the widely held cosmological model is incorrect in any significant way, as has been suggested by the OP.
Except the anisotropies are aligned to the earth, and at the largest scales of the universe (the lowest multipoles). This is a disaster for The Copernican and Cosmological Principles, as well as the standard model, and inflation theory. The Planck team is already talking about needing “new physics” to explain it.

Lawrence Krauss said in 2005:

edge.org/3rd_culture/krauss06/krauss06.2_index.html
“ But when you look at [the cosmic microwave background] map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That’s crazy. We’re looking out at the whole universe. There’s no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe.”

Of course everyone thought Planck would take care of the little issue:

newscientist.com/article/mg20327245.900-13-more-things-axis-of-evil.htm
02 September 2009

"…The apparent alignment is “evil” because it undermines what we thought we knew about the early universe. Modern cosmology is built on the assumption that the universe is essentially the same in whichever direction we look. If the cosmic radiation has a preferred direction, that assumption may have to go - along with our best theories about cosmic history.

This disaster might be averted if we can show that the axis arises from some oddity in the way our telescopes and satellites observe the radiation…"

“…The European Space Agency’s recently launched Planck space telescope might settle the issue when it makes the most sensitive maps yet of the CMB. Until then, the axis of evil continues to terrorise us…”

And, as I said even the Planck team is talking about “new physics” (i.e., inflation in the 1980s, dark energy in the 1990s, and now what? multiverse? something else?):

esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Planck/Planck_reveals_an_almost_perfect_Universe

“Our ultimate goal would be to construct a new model that predicts the anomalies and links them together. But these are early days; so far, we don’t know whether this is possible and what type of new physics might be needed. And that’s exciting”

By the way, they are not anomalies. They are measurements at this time. The current model is the anomaly.
 
Now whether an inflation model works or not is hardly a crisis. Laypeople can’t get upset about every tiff in every branch of academia. What are we supposed to do, choose which model is true by phone-in?
Inflation not working is a disaster! The big bang theory almost was jettisoned in the 1980s and was only saved by inflationary theory. The disaster now is that the only inflationary theories available that potentially fit the data imply a multiverse, and are not falsifiable.

The alternative theories even remotely acceptable to mainstream science all challenge the Copernican Principle. Think what you wish, but I find this very significant.
 
Was that an attempt at sarcasm, or is there a point behind the comment?

Also, the church (i.e., magesterium) has never taught the world is flat.
Just my way of saying that this world isn’t that great, except that it provides salvation.

LOVE! ❤️
 
😉
Personally, I want the team with the black shirts to win. Black is the new beige.
According to the narrator for The Principle (Kate Mulgrew, aka Captain Janeway of Start trek), Orange is the New Black! 😉
 
Just my way of saying that this world isn’t that great, except that it provides salvation.

LOVE! ❤️
Ok. It did not really sound like sarcasm.

The world is in a fallen state or at least its inhabitants are, but God did put the world in a special place in then universe (in fact He built the universe around it if you read Genesis 1). It is the place He chose for His creation. He sent His Son here (not to planet X, at least as far as we know).

When the New Earth and New Heaven are established, all order will be restored.
 
Except the anisotropies are aligned to the earth, and at the largest scales of the universe (the lowest multipoles). This is a disaster for The Copernican and Cosmological Principles, as well as the standard model, and inflation theory. The Planck team is already talking about needing “new physics” to explain it.

Lawrence Krauss said in 2005:

edge.org/3rd_culture/krauss06/krauss06.2_index.html
“ But when you look at [the cosmic microwave background] map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That’s crazy. We’re looking out at the whole universe. There’s no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe.”

Of course everyone thought Planck would take care of the little issue:

newscientist.com/article/mg20327245.900-13-more-things-axis-of-evil.htm
02 September 2009

"…The apparent alignment is “evil” because it undermines what we thought we knew about the early universe. Modern cosmology is built on the assumption that the universe is essentially the same in whichever direction we look. If the cosmic radiation has a preferred direction, that assumption may have to go - along with our best theories about cosmic history.

This disaster might be averted if we can show that the axis arises from some oddity in the way our telescopes and satellites observe the radiation…"

“…The European Space Agency’s recently launched Planck space telescope might settle the issue when it makes the most sensitive maps yet of the CMB. Until then, the axis of evil continues to terrorise us…”

And, as I said even the Planck team is talking about “new physics” (i.e., inflation in the 1980s, dark energy in the 1990s, and now what? multiverse? something else?):

esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Planck/Planck_reveals_an_almost_perfect_Universe

“Our ultimate goal would be to construct a new model that predicts the anomalies and links them together. But these are early days; so far, we don’t know whether this is possible and what type of new physics might be needed. And that’s exciting”

By the way, they are not anomalies. They are measurements at this time. The current model is the anomaly.
It will be interesting to see what comes of this, though it may take some time, of course. I think the OP’s claim is premature.
 
According to the narrator for The Principle (Kate Mulgrew, aka Captain Janeway of Start trek), Orange is the New Black! 😉
Oh, the movie “The Principle” is a piece of junk! No one I know wants to pay for junk.😃

I’ll stick with the National Academy of Sciences statement. And I highly reccommend to our viewing audience to read it in it’s entirety. Here is a snippet from it:
“Many scientific theories are so well-established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics).”
nationalacademies.org/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

I think I’m done after posting more than a few comments here.
 
The world is in a fallen state or at least its inhabitants are, but God did put the world in a special place in then universe (in fact He built the universe around it if you read Genesis 1). It is the place He chose for His creation. He sent His Son here (not to planet X, at least as far as we know).

When the New Earth and New Heaven are established, all order will be restored.
In Genesis 1: 10, God names the dry land “earth” and then He said, verse 11, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: …” – Are those the Genesis 1 verses you are referring to? I do know that the Catholic Church considers Genesis 1:1, as the doctrine that God created the earth.🙂
 
In Genesis 1: 10, God names the dry land “earth” and then He said, verse 11, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: …” – Are those the Genesis 1 verses you are referring to? I do know that the Catholic Church considers Genesis 1:1, as the doctrine that God created the earth.🙂
Yes, for instance:

"1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made.

4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.

5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.

6 And God said: Let there be a firmament made amidst the waters: and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made a firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament, from those that were above the firmament, and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament, Heaven; and the evening and morning were the second day.

9 God also said: Let the waters that are under the heaven, be gathered together into one place: and let the dry land appear. And it was so done.

10 And God called the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, he called Seas. And God saw that it was good."

Later:

"4 And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

15 To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.

16 And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars.

17 And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth.

18 And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and morning were the fourth day."
 
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