Coptic (but strongly considering Maronite)

[ASimpleSinner]

Madaglan:

Sometimes the EO seem to have a tendency to equate Eastern Christianity with the Byzantine tradition. The Maronite Church comes from the Syriac tradition and thus would not and should not have an iconostasis.

I second this. There is no singular “East” in the sense of a penultimate pristine singular expression that is the hallmark of all churches East of the West. Some churches never had icon screens (the current form we use in Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches is a rather late modern usage just a little older than the Reformation, ditto the sakkos and “crown mitre”) the highly canonical (in the sense of many governing canons) traditions of iconography, or even even the same or similar self-concepts of various traditions being sacrosanct in a fashion.

On that last concept, I mean simply to say that “Greeks” (shorthand for Byzantine-Greco-Slavonic) tend to have a less fluid concept of liturgy (being heavily reliant on concepts and ideals of “pristine tradition” a la Byzantium or Holy Rus) than some other Eastern Churches.

 

[Madaglan]

Madaglan:

Sometimes the EO seem to have a tendency to equate Eastern Christianity with the Byzantine tradition. The Maronite Church comes from the Syriac tradition and thus would not and should not have an iconostasis.

How did I equate Eastern Christianity with Byzantine tradition?

I simply commented on what I noticed in the church (or what was not in the church), and concluded that it was an interesting amalgam of Maronite and French [Catholic] traditions. I did not say they should have an iconostasis, or that they were missing an inconostasis.

Geez. Some people.

 

[Madaglan]

I second this. There is no singular “East” in the sense of a penultimate pristine singular expression that is the hallmark of all churches East of the West. Some churches never had icon screens (the current form we use in Orthodox and Greek Catholic Churches is a rather late modern usage just a little older than the Reformation, ditto the sakkos and “crown mitre”) the highly canonical (in the sense of many governing canons) traditions of iconography, or even even the same or similar self-concepts of various traditions being sacrosanct in a fashion.

On that last concept, I mean simply to say that “Greeks” (shorthand for Byzantine-Greco-Slavonic) tend to have a less fluid concept of liturgy (being heavily reliant on concepts and ideals of “pristine tradition” a la Byzantium or Holy Rus) than some other Eastern Churches.

Elaborate icon screens were to be found in medieval Novgorod, long before the Reformation. In fact, I first learned about the four major tiers and the placement and meaning of the icons when I witnessed a preserved icon screen at a medieval Novgorod exhibit. Perhaps the styles have changed, but the essentials have remained the same.

The Orthodox church I attend only has a base level tier and a second tier with smaller icons. But this is largely due to space (and I imagine financial) restrictions.

 

[theguidedheart]

I’ve been there and this place is truly holy and the priests and monks there are incredible. If you go, be sure to meet Fr. John Marie, he’s a brilliant; a true man of God.

Here are some pictures.

Wow very cool, and a very small world - we know Fr. John Marie well We miss all of them up there, they are like family (and one of them is )

 

[Peter_J]

How did I equate Eastern Christianity with Byzantine tradition?

I simply commented on what I noticed in the church (or what was not in the church), and concluded that it was an interesting amalgam of Maronite and French [Catholic] traditions. I did not say they should have an iconostasis, or that they were missing an inconostasis.

Geez. Some people.

Madaglan,

It think your “no iconostasis” comment, read in context, could make it sound like you consider that a latinization, whether or not you meant that. But clearly it’s an escalation to suggest that you were equating Eastern Christianity with Byzantine tradition.

I think this is just one of those situations where we all need to put in a little extra effort, beyond our natural tendencies, to be charitable. Otherwise, it’s easy to find ourselves in a slowly escalating (or eroding, depending how you look at it) conversation.

My two cents,
Peter.

 

[Madaglan]

Madaglan,

It think your “no iconostasis” comment, read in context, could make it sound like you consider that a latinization, whether or not you meant that. But clearly it’s an escalation to suggest that you were equating Eastern Christianity with Byzantine tradition.

I think this is just one of those situations where we all need to put in a little extra effort, beyond our natural tendencies, to be charitable. Otherwise, it’s easy to find ourselves in a slowly escalating (or eroding, depending how you look at it) conversation.

My two cents,
Peter.

I based what I wrote on my observations at the time I visited, which was about two years ago when I had not yet any real contact with the Orthodox. I still attended a Ruthenian parish. I wrote down my observations in my journal. I focused, at the time of observation, on the differences and similarities between the Maronite church and the Latin Church and the Ruthenian Church, as I had come to observe them. So, I wrote my observations, not as an Eastern Orthodox, but as a Latin Catholic Christian attending a Ruthenian Catholic church.

I clearly recognized the statues and the Sacred Heart of Jesus painting as Latinizations, although there were a few signs of what appeared clearly Maronite tradition. I never did find out if the depiction of a lamb on the front of the altar was native to Maronite use. Perhaps someone here can tell me. At the time I visited, I may have wondered if the lack of the iconostasis were a Latinization (knowing as I did that the Ruthenians only recently had begun a re-instatement of iconostasis in their churches), but I did not make any assertion for or against. I more or less was bewildered at what I saw in the church and how it all played into Maronite spirituality. I was aware of the Syriac churches, and I knew that they had their own distinct traditions, but I did not know much about them at the time. That’s one major reason why I decided to visit and attend the liturgy–and why I wrote down my observations.

I wrote down parts of the liturgy that seemed very similiar to the Tridentine Latin Mass. One notable part: I think it may have been “I will go in to the altar of God/To God, the joy of my youth.” This is said at the beginning of the TLM; in the Qurbono, it was said during the time of the Creed.

It should be noted that the Copts have iconostasis, even though they are not, per se, of the Byzantine tradition.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Elaborate icon screens were to be found in medieval Novgorod, long before the Reformation. In fact, I first learned about the four major tiers and the placement and meaning of the icons when I witnessed a preserved icon screen at a medieval Novgorod exhibit. Perhaps the styles have changed, but the essentials have remained the same.

The Orthodox church I attend only has a base level tier and a second tier with smaller icons. But this is largely due to space (and I imagine financial) restrictions.

And from there start to do some research on when it was common for all (Byzantine) Orthodox churches to have that sort of iconostasis… What they had before with templon barriers, is something rather different, with modern style screens dating only back to an era of the last millenium.

How did I equate Eastern Christianity with Byzantine tradition?

I simply commented on what I noticed in the church (or what was not in the church), and concluded that it was an interesting amalgam of Maronite and French [Catholic] traditions. I did not say they should have an iconostasis, or that they were missing an inconostasis.

Geez. Some people.

Can we avoid the eye-rolling emoticons? You made an assertion that we legitimately take issue with - not because we are “some people.”

You mention the lack of an icon screen as though that means they were NOT eastern in that respect, when in fact the icon screen is patently Byzantine and a much later development. The Coptic usage will be an interesting thing for you to look into…

As to the Maronites not having them… There are two different issues at play that you seem to conflate into one. The statuary and the Sacred Heart stuff IS a Latinization… Not having now (or ever!) an icon screen is NOT. The Assyrians NEVER had them.

YES, the Copts do have icon screens. Researching the history of that will be fascinating. The Armenians - in their same communion - do not.

Not being Byzantine does not mean one is Latinized.

 

[Peter_J]

And from there start to do some research on when it was common for all (Byzantine) Orthodox churches to have that sort of iconostasis…

Maybe I missed something here, but why are you telling Madaglan to do research? He/she is not your secretary.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Maybe I missed something here, but why are you telling Madaglan to do research? He/she is not your secretary.

So that is why I don’t have my coffee yet! Thank you for clarifying that for Madaglan and I.

Darn. I had some light filing I was going to assign for the afternoon, too…

But I think you did miss something here. Sorry I was not plain enough for you on this one - I have done my own research and was from there inviting Madaglan NOT to take my word for it, but do research for his/herself and find out about the history of the icon screen and who does and does not use them in the East.

 

[Madaglan]

And from there start to do some research on when it was common for all (Byzantine) Orthodox churches to have that sort of iconostasis… What they had before with templon barriers, is something rather different, with modern style screens dating only back to an era of the last millenium.

Yes, I already know this. I do not believe the 1st century Christians had full-blown iconostasis.

Can we avoid the eye-rolling emoticons? You made an assertion that we legitimately take issue with - not because we are “some people.”

And what assertion did I make?

You mention the lack of an icon screen as though that means they were NOT eastern in that respect, when in fact the icon screen is patently Byzantine and a much later development. The Coptic usage will be an interesting thing for you to look into…

No, you are reading that into my post.

As to the Maronites not having them… There are two different issues at play that you seem to conflate into one. The statuary and the Sacred Heart stuff IS a Latinization… Not having now (or ever!) an icon screen is NOT. The Assyrians NEVER had them.

I know the statues and Sacred Heart are a Latinization. Ok, so the Assyrians never had an iconostasis. I never said that they needed one in order to be Eastern. I was simply making the observation that they did not have one.

Had I attended the liturgy of Addai and Mari (not Maronite, granted, but rather East Syrian), I could have commented that there were no explicit words of institution. This would not mean that they should or need these explicit words to be fully Catholic, or for their Liturgy to be valid.

YES, the Copts do have icon screens. Researching the history of that will be fascinating. The Armenians - in their same communion - do not.

I’m sure you’ve spent hundreds of hours reading the Coptic texts.

Not being Byzantine does not mean one is Latinized.

I never made that assertion. I was simply commenting that the Maronites, of all the Eastern Catholic churches I had visited to that point, seemed the most Latinized, due not to any “lack” of an iconostasis, but because of the great emphasis on the Sacred Heart and Latin statuary, among other things. I mentioned that there was no iconostasis because this is normative in many Eastern churches, and I was aware that even the West had its own tradition of Rood Screens (albeit different from an iconostasis).

 

[Peter_J]

So that is why I don’t have my coffee yet! Thank you for clarifying that for Madaglan and I.

Darn. I had some light filing I was going to assign for the afternoon, too…

So sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

But I think you did miss something here. Sorry I was not plain enough for you on this one - I have done my own research and was from there inviting Madaglan NOT to take my word for it, but do research for his/herself and find out about the history of the icon screen and who does and does not use them in the East.

Have you considered the possibility that Madaglan already knows what he/she is talking about?

Madaglan has made it clear already that he/she did not mean to suggest that a lack of iconostasis was a latinization. What more do you want? Are you just determined to find fault with him/her?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Have you considered the possibility that Madaglan already knows what he/she is talking about?

What I had considered is that there is more up for discussion about the origins of icon screens - how we got them today, who has them, who never had them, why some have them.

Is that fair?

Madaglan has made it clear already that he/she did not mean to suggest that a lack of iconostasis was a latinization. What more do you want? Are you just determined to find fault with him/her?

My comments which you have seized upon predated Madaglan’s clarification. From that clarification, more points were brought up to be discussed. Why you feel it is incumbant upon you to speak up for someone who can and does speak up for themselves is curious to me and forcing me to wonder if you are just determined to find fault with me. What more do you want? You keep pressing the issue here.

There was a good deal of wisdom in what you previously offered:

I think this is just one of those situations where we all need to put in a little extra effort, beyond our natural tendencies, to be charitable. Otherwise, it’s easy to find ourselves in a slowly escalating (or eroding, depending how you look at it) conversation.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’m sure you’ve spent hundreds of hours reading the Coptic texts.

Do you think comments like that - that sort of sarcasm - yields anything good in a discussion forum like this?

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Note from Moderator:
If the uncharitable bickering doesn’t end, people will be restricted from further posting on this thread. Please don’t let that be you.

 

[Madaglan]

Addai,

Besdies the Maronites, have you checked out any other Eastern Catholic Church?

 

[Peter_J]

My comments which you have seized upon predated Madaglan’s clarification.

I was referring to Madaglan’s clarification in #22 (“I did not say they should have an iconostasis, or that they were missing an inconostasis”) which predated what I quoted from you (#27 and #29).

From that clarification, more points were brought up to be discussed. Why you feel it is incumbant upon you to speak up for someone who can and does speak up for themselves is curious to me and forcing me to wonder if you are just determined to find fault with me. What more do you want? You keep pressing the issue here.

I wasn’t aware that I was doing any of that.

Sorry if I’ve offended you.

There was a good deal of wisdom in what you previously offered:
Peter J;3795206:

I think this is just one of those situations where we all need to put in a little extra effort, beyond our natural tendencies, to be charitable. Otherwise, it’s easy to find ourselves in a slowly escalating (or eroding, depending how you look at it) conversation.

Thank you.

 

[cookiemama40]

I have attended the Maronite church in Austin many times. They have many beautiful icons as well as statues. As a matter of fact all their windows are stained glass icons.

Not only do they have the Coptic Orthodox celebrating Liturgy there, but the Byzantine’s also celebrate Liturgy there weekly on Sunday evening at 6 PM.

Several people have mentioned the lack of iconostas. This particular Maronite church has a curtain separating the bema from the Holy of Holies, like Jewish tradition.

It’s a great place to attend.

 

[Harpazo]

I have attended the Maronite church in Austin many times. They have many beautiful icons as well as statues. As a matter of fact all their windows are stained glass icons.

Not only do they have the Coptic Orthodox celebrating Liturgy there, but the Byzantine’s also celebrate Liturgy there weekly on Sunday evening at 6 PM.

Several people have mentioned the lack of iconostas. This particular Maronite church has a curtain separating the bema from the Holy of Holies, like Jewish tradition.

It’s a great place to attend.

My pastor was telling me about this church today. That’s awesome that it has a curtain! I’d love to see one in my parish, but the backlash parishioners would give our priest wouldn’t be worth it.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[Addai]

Addai,

Besdies the Maronites, have you checked out any other Eastern Catholic Church?

Well I’m looking at dropping in with a local Chaldean parish in the future. Not so much for myself, but my best friend comes from a Protestantized Assyrian COE background. Anyway we will try to take in a service together one of these days that my schedule allows. My friend would like to attend because being American and not being around any ethnics when he was ordained, he would like to learn more about the rubrics and other aspects of tradition around that rite.

 

[Altar_Server_01]

Well the Maronites are interesting and don’t worry about the filioque the Catholic church teaches that it was not in the original creed and not required for use none of the eastren right churches have ever used the verison of the creed with the filioque in it and I pefer not to use it it originated in Spain to defend aginst a herresy saying Christ was created and not always there I strongly hope for reunion but I must let you know I don’t t Maronites are of the belief of the duel natures of Christ
Good luck on your Journey