Coptic Christianity

[dzheremi]

I was raised Presbyterian by my mother, then she passed on and I stopped attending that church and just sort of floated around for about a decade without any church. Then I came into the RC church because that’s what the other half of my family is (Hispanics and Irish). I attended my last RC mass in July of 2009. After moving to another area that has a Coptic Church in August of 2011, I began attending liturgy there. There is also a Greek Orthodox Church here, but my previous experience with the EO (mostly via Russian Orthodox and OCA people, though there is a good mix of ethnicities at the local OCA, and it’s mostly converts) lead me to believe that the Coptic Orthodox is a better option, for some of the reasons mentioned earlier, but also because it was really through the Desert Fathers (who I know belong to everybody, but have a special resonance and significance in the Coptic Church, for obvious reasons), some of the Syrian church figures (St. Ephrem, Bar Hebraeus, etc.), and the teachings I’ve read and heard by HH Pope Kyrillos VI and HH Pope Shenouda III that I came to have an appreciation of Orthodoxy as something that could actually be lived by someone like me, that is in fact very practical and immediate without being shallow or emotionally-driven. In fact, looking back on it even as an RC I always had a special spot for the OO. My old father of confession (a Dominican, so very Latin/Western) used to read to me from the hymns of St. Ephrem both in and outside of confession, as he had similarly developed a love for the Syrian fathers as a result of studying in seminary with a Chaldean Catholic priest.

Short version: It just seems to fit my spiritual outlook better.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I heard from someone that Coptics don’t like Roman Catholics.
Is that true? Ever since I heard about them years ago, I wanted to learn about them and I would always stand by them whenever the Muslims behaved impertinently in Egypt, yet, I would be received with suspicion and ill.

I’ve never quite understood why. Was it perhaps due to our doctrinal differences? Or did it have something to do politically? Whatever the case, perhaps a Coptic on here might shed some light. It would help me.

I know that we Catholics get along with the Armenians quite well; especially considering that we’ve had an alliance with them a thousand years ago, and even granted them their own Kingdom, based under the Armenian way and no other, in Cilicia. I’d say, this is one of our prouder moments, considering all the evils laid down on them by the Turks.

But the topic is still on the Coptics:
Do they hate us? If so, why?

-Karl

Yes, it is “Copts” rather than “Coptics” as I understand. The Copts have had aversions to Roman Catholics because of the Crusades and also to us Byzantines for similar reasons. Oriental Orthodox have historically actually preferred to be under Islam than under Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy as a result.

A decision that did not work out well for them . . .

Alex

 

[jakasaki]

I was raised Presbyterian by my mother, then she passed on and I stopped attending that church and just sort of floated around for about a decade without any church. Then I came into the RC church because that’s what the other half of my family is (Hispanics and Irish). I attended my last RC mass in July of 2009. After moving to another area that has a Coptic Church in August of 2011, I began attending liturgy there. There is also a Greek Orthodox Church here, but my previous experience with the EO (mostly via Russian Orthodox and OCA people, though there is a good mix of ethnicities at the local OCA, and it’s mostly converts) lead me to believe that the Coptic Orthodox is a better option, for some of the reasons mentioned earlier, but also because it was really through the Desert Fathers (who I know belong to everybody, but have a special resonance and significance in the Coptic Church, for obvious reasons), some of the Syrian church figures (St. Ephrem, Bar Hebraeus, etc.), and the teachings I’ve read and heard by HH Pope Kyrillos VI and HH Pope Shenouda III that I came to have an appreciation of Orthodoxy as something that could actually be lived by someone like me, that is in fact very practical and immediate without being shallow or emotionally-driven. In fact, looking back on it even as an RC I always had a special spot for the OO. My old father of confession (a Dominican, so very Latin/Western) used to read to me from the hymns of St. Ephrem both in and outside of confession, as he had similarly developed a love for the Syrian fathers as a result of studying in seminary with a Chaldean Catholic priest.

Short version: It just seems to fit my spiritual outlook better.

My dear beloved Jeremy - it’s so nice to see you back!

May the Lord Bless you and guide you on forward to your new spiritual journey.

Sending hugs and best regards as always,

Pam

 

[dzheremi]

Hi Pam. Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, I pop up every now and then… In the wake of the passing of HH Pope Shenouda III someone e-mailed me a link and I was pleasantly surprised by the interest that has been generated here as of late in Coptic Christianity. That’s something I can relate to, so I figure it doesn’t hurt to stop by and share in it.

 

[CarloMagnus]

Visit a Coptic liturgy, if one is close enough to you. Here in the US there are some that are in English, personally I prefer Arabic/Coptic to the use of English. Assuming they use the same book to follow Liturgy, it’s in English/Arabic/Coptic so it’s easy to follow and I have always found everyone very helpful in figuring things out and translating for me.

I have it planned for the future.

Ah, I see. Well, that might be part of it: If it were presented as “we’re more similar than dissimilar”, then I could see why the person might have reacted negatively. That’s not really the picture I’m getting from my time so far in the Coptic Orthodox Church. It’s not that they don’t recognize similarities, but the Copts I know don’t usually think of things in terms of “more similar” and “less similar”. I bet if I asked everyone at my church, they could tell me some similarities and some differences, but even when I went back home to California (my home area doesn’t have any non-Chalcedonian Orthodox churches), I brought up the idea of going to the local OCA or Bulgarian church for their Nativity liturgy and celebrations (not to commune there, of course, but just to go there and be around other Christians) and one of the ladies in the congregation made sure to pull me aside and tell me very sternly: “Do not receive communion there. You know you can’t receive communion there, right? We do not commune with the Chalcedonians.” And this was referring to the EO, not RCs (though I have no doubt she’d say the same thing there, too). And after my first liturgy here about 7 months ago, Fr. Marcus made a point of expounding upon the errors of the Tome of Leo and why Dioscoros is Orthodox and similar things, in a quick 30-minute rundown he gave me of 2000 years of Coptic history.

So no matter what similarities there are (and I think that any random OO you might meet would still admit that we are closest to the EO than to anyone else, regardless of whether or not they think the EO are Orthodox or not), the line between who is Orthodox and who is not is pretty strictly maintained, at least in the abstract. (I have to write “in the abstract” beceause EO-OO intercommunion is definitely not unheard of, but is a response to local, pastoral situations, not a matter of official policy or what have you in either church.)

Find one and go to it. You won’t regret it. I moved 1200 miles to go to one and I don’t regret it.

I have that book in my amazon wishlist.
I’ve been meaning to learn some Arabic myself; is there a way to learn Coptic?
I don’t see a lot of books on Coptic Christianity.
Can you recommend any others?

-Karl

 

[CarloMagnus]

Yes, it is “Copts” rather than “Coptics” as I understand. The Copts have had aversions to Roman Catholics because of the Crusades and also to us Byzantines for similar reasons. Oriental Orthodox have historically actually preferred to be under Islam than under Roman Catholicism or Byzantine Orthodoxy as a result.

A decision that did not work out well for them . . .

Alex

I do know that the Coptic Golden Age was a very wonderful time for the Copts. I wouldn’t aim the Crusades at the Copts, as it was always directed against Islam. Plus, as a student of source information, I have yet to read any chronicle of the Catholics killing a single Copt. Perhaps they’ve gotten into a few issues here and there with the byzantines and even the russians, but nothing on the Copts. I do know that the Fatimid Caliphate (909-1171AD) were not the “tolerant” people that people like Voltaire make them out to be.

We can only pray for them.
If there was something more that can be done, then by God, I would love to help.

Hi Pam. Thank you for your good wishes. Yes, I pop up every now and then… In the wake of the passing of HH Pope Shenouda III someone e-mailed me a link and I was pleasantly surprised by the interest that has been generated here as of late in Coptic Christianity. That’s something I can relate to, so I figure it doesn’t hurt to stop by and share in it.

Death affects us all.

-Karl

 

[dzheremi]

is there a way to learn Coptic?

Attend a Coptic Orthodox liturgy regularly. You won’t really learn Coptic to any level of fluency (not a big deal, as it is a dead language), but you will learn all the Coptic you’re ever likely to hear outside of a monastery. Many churches also have Coptic lessons, though my own church is not big enough for this.

I don’t see a lot of books on Coptic Christianity.
Can you recommend any others?

There is a real dearth of well-translated sources from which to learn about Coptic Orthodox spirituality (there’s plenty of poorly-translated material, however, and that sadly includes the translations of HH Pope Shenouda III’s writings and sermons). Most outsiders focus instead on the historical and political aspects of Coptic life. Traditional sources like the Agpeya (the Coptic Book of the Hours), the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and the Synaxarium will be very helpful, I think. There’s a reason why we carry the Agpeya around everywhere, and I often do the same with the Sayings of the Desert Fathers as well.

I wouldn’t aim the Crusades at the Copts, as it was always directed against Islam. Plus, as a student of source information, I have yet to read any chronicle of the Catholics killing a single Copt.

This is an interesting statement. As Roman Catholic proselytization of the Copts didn’t really begin in earnest until the 1600s, long after the Arabs had conquered Egypt and the Crusades had ended, it doesn’t even make sense to talk about the Crusades in relation to the Copts. And you generally don’t make a habit of committing violence against people you are trying to convert, if you care at all about being a good evangelist.

 

[CarloMagnus]

Attend a Coptic Orthodox liturgy regularly. You won’t really learn Coptic to any level of fluency (not a big deal, as it is a dead language), but you will learn all the Coptic you’re ever likely to hear outside of a monastery. Many churches also have Coptic lessons, though my own church is not big enough for this.

That’s a tremendous shame, as I think it should be something that should be preserved with extreme care and jealousy. There’s bound to be a book on it someday.

There is a real dearth of well-translated sources from which to learn about Coptic Orthodox spirituality (there’s plenty of poorly-translated material, however, and that sadly includes the translations of HH Pope Shenouda III’s writings and sermons). Most outsiders focus instead on the historical and political aspects of Coptic life. Traditional sources like the Agpeya (the Coptic Book of the Hours), the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and the Synaxarium will be very helpful, I think. There’s a reason why we carry the Agpeya around everywhere, and I often do the same with the Sayings of the Desert Fathers as well.

I’ll be sure to remember that.

This is an interesting statement. As Roman Catholic proselytization of the Copts didn’t really begin in earnest until the 1600s, long after the Arabs had conquered Egypt and the Crusades had ended, it doesn’t even make sense to talk about the Crusades in relation to the Copts. And you generally don’t make a habit of committing violence against people you are trying to convert, if you care at all about being a good evangelist.

Actually, the Crusades didn’t end until the The Great Turkish War (1683-1699). After that, there came a huge secularization of countries; with few religious tendencies.

I have no knowledge of the Catholics trying to Proselytize Copts in any period, but I’m definitely willing to look into that.

You’ll also find I completely agree with you. But if you notice, the Crusades had no intention of proselytizing those who would be subject to the new leaders of the new lands. They were aimed at restoring former Christians lands back to Christians.

I think this is digressing from the point of the thread. But I’m more than willing to talk more with you and perhaps you could share a Coptic prayer or two with me. In Arabic or Coptic with English translations, if you don’t mind.

-Karl

 

[dzheremi]

That’s a tremendous shame, as I think it should be something that should be preserved with extreme care and jealousy. There’s bound to be a book on it someday.

Oh, there are plenty of books out there (dictionaries, grammars), but again the problem is that nobody speaks the language, so reading those resources you’d just be learning the liturgy or some Biblical passages, anyway. They can’t really make you fluent anymore than reading an English grammar or dictionary would make you a fluent English speaker.

Actually, the Crusades didn’t end until the The Great Turkish War (1683-1699). After that, there came a huge secularization of countries; with few religious tendencies.

The Crusades are generally considered to be an 11th through 14th century phenomenon. The term has been applied to other conflicts with varying degrees of ambiguity, but I’ve never seen any analysis that extended them into the 17th century. Anyway, doesn’t really matter, as the point is that it never included the Copts.

I have no knowledge of the Catholics trying to Proselytize Copts in any period, but I’m definitely willing to look into that.

The Coptic Catholic Church did not materialize out of nothing.

I think this is digressing from the point of the thread. But I’m more than willing to talk more with you and perhaps you could share a Coptic prayer or two with me. In Arabic or Coptic with English translations, if you don’t mind.

There are several recordings of the liturgy in English (or at least primarily in English) that you could listen to. These would probably be a good place to start, as prayers are intimately connected to ritual use (e.g., particular prayers are said during the Midnight Praises that aren’t said elsewhere), so I’m not sure what to give you that would be a general example Coptic prayer. I guess maybe the thanksgiving prayer, but that is said at the beginning of every Coptic hour (together with other introductory prayers), so it is still part of that cycle.

Anyway, here is one such recording of the liturgy of St. Basil, prayed by Fr. Antonious Tanios, who is probably the easiest for an English speaker to understand (less accent in his English). Here is the liturgy of St. Basil prayed by Fr. Anthony Hanna, which has better sound-quality than Fr. Antonious’ liturgy.

And here are some Coptic Psalm recitations, reflecting the manner in which the Agpeya is chanted in various languages and in various capacities:

Psalm 57 (56) in English

Psalm 150 for Great Lent in English and Coptic

Psalm 148-150 in Coptic (part of the Midnight Praises; Coptic text in video, English translation in video description)

And here is a Coptic Fraction prayer (prayed during the breaking of the bread in the preparation of the Eucharist) for the Apostles Fast and Feast, prayed in Arabic by Fr. Youssef Saad: youtube.com/watch?v=n2-iqilyaK0 (translation in video)

 

[Celticnovice]

This short video of a British journalist visiting Copts absolutely blew me away…

Video

I definitely would like to see more. Peace be on all Copts!

 

[Elisabeth51]

I have it planned for the future.

I have that book in my amazon wishlist.
I’ve been meaning to learn some Arabic myself; is there a way to learn Coptic?
I don’t see a lot of books on Coptic Christianity.
Can you recommend any others?

-Karl

And learning Coptic…sure, some would call it dead, but they also call Latin dead and yet there are those of us that have learned it well enough to carry on a conversation or write and read fluently in it. I have an acquaintence who is an Egyptologist and they are quite fluent in old Egyptian and even Coptic. I am told there are a few Coptic priests that use Coptic at home, but I do not know if this is still the case or if it is no longer done. I have picked up enough to understand what is related to the liturgy, but cannot read it although I do recognize a few words. There are resources for learning Coptic.

Arabic–go for it, it’s fun! Good luck!

 

[dzheremi]

This short video of a British journalist visiting Copts absolutely blew me away…

Video

I definitely would like to see more. Peace be on all Copts!

The monk that the British presenter mentions that he is looking for is Fr. Lazarus al-Anthony, a man who came from Australia as an atheist and eventually ended up adopting the Orthodox faith and the monastic life of the Coptic monasteries in the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great (the father of Christian monasticism, which began in Egypt) in the Egyptian desert. Here is a documentary on his journey to the monastic life, called “The Last Anchorite”:

Part 1
Part 2

 

[Celticnovice]

The monk that the British presenter mentions that he is looking for is Fr. Lazarus al-Anthony, a man who came from Australia as an atheist and eventually ended up adopting the Orthodox faith and the monastic life of the Coptic monasteries in the Monastery of St. Anthony the Great (the father of Christian monasticism, which began in Egypt) in the Egyptian desert. Here is a documentary on his journey to the monastic life, called “The Last Anchorite”:

Part 1
Part 2

Thank you Sir

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I guess he felt that being an atheist was the ultimate “Copt out” and so . . .

OK, I’ll get back to work.

Alex

 

[dcointin]

Could anyone comment on Coptic ecclesiology and how it compares and contrasts to Eastern Orthodox and Catholic ecclesiology?