Coptic Christians

[Javl]

One is either an Ethiopian or a Copt. Saying an Ethiopian Copt is like saying an Italian German.

AND? What about Italian American, French American, African American, and so on? Are these also non-existant or wrong?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[malphono]

AND? What about Italian American, French American, African American, and so on? Are these also non-existant or wrong?

Perhaps it would be a better idea not to get silly. The Coptic and Ethiopian Churches stem from the same Alexandrene tradition, but that’s about it. They are are (even the Orthodox) officially separate.

And I have to add here that the the very idea of Ethiopians using Aramaic as a liturgical language is totally absurd. Others in this forum will tell you, (go ahead and ask, I don’t care) that I am not one who of those who habitually demands “references” for everything people say. This time, though you’ll ave to provide chapter and verse (i.e., verifiable references) for that one. I’d be very curious as to the existence any Ethiopian community that used a liturgical language other than Ge’ez.

 

[Wildrover]

You may know best, but there are Ethiopian Copts that do use an Aramaic Liturgy. I have heard this from an Ethiopian Copt.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I think they may be referring to the Syriac Orthodox Church, which has an Aramaic liturgy and is in full communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church as a fellow Oriental Orthodox Church.

 

[Javl]

Perhaps it would be a better idea not to get silly. The Coptic and Ethiopian Churches stem from the same Alexandrene tradition, but that’s about it. They are are (even the Orthodox) officially separate.

I’m not getting silly. I’m responding to your “example”. I do concede though that you are correct in regards to the Churches. In my description I should have said Copts in Ethiopia.

And I have to add here that the the very idea of Ethiopians using Aramaic as a liturgical language is totally absurd. Others in this forum will tell you, (go ahead and ask, I don’t care) that I am not one who of those who habitually demands “references” for everything people say. This time, though you’ll ave to provide chapter and verse (i.e., verifiable references) for that one. I’d be very curious as to the existence any Ethiopian community that used a liturgical language other than Ge’ez.

It may be absurd to you, but anything is possible. If you re-read my statement, I did not state it as fact but as hearsay. And, of course, where can I get verifiable proof for it since I am no longer in Egypt or Ethiopia and am no longer in contact with the person who had told me? ( Thank you for your Christian Charity in “correcting” me. )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Let’s relax friends - all is good.

I think that the issue here is the differing understanding of “Copt” as a nationality and “Coptic” as a member of the Alexandrian liturgical tradition stemming from Egypt.

In the latter sense, “Copt” is anyone belonging to the Particular Oriental Orthodox Churches of Egypt, Eritrea or Ethiopia - together with many Nubians. It is like calling me a “Byzantine” or “Greek” because I’m “Greek-Catholic.”

But my knowledge of the language of Constantine is “Greek to me.”

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Just an invitation to have a look and see the beauty of the Coptic Church’s daily Horologion or “Agpeya”"

www.agpeya.org



Alex

SWEET! Thanks for posting this, Alex!

 

[Javl]

Let’s relax friends - all is good.

I think that the issue here is the differing understanding of “Copt” as a nationality and “Coptic” as a member of the Alexandrian liturgical tradition stemming from Egypt.

In the latter sense, “Copt” is anyone belonging to the Particular Oriental Orthodox Churches of Egypt, Eritrea or Ethiopia - together with many Nubians. It is like calling me a “Byzantine” or “Greek” because I’m “Greek-Catholic.”

But my knowledge of the language of Constantine is “Greek to me.”

Alex

Thank you Alex.

From a ( dumb :doh2: ) Latin Rite Catholic.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[malphono]

I think that the issue here is the differing understanding of “Copt” as a nationality and “Coptic” as a member of the Alexandrian liturgical tradition stemming from Egypt.

Well … FWIW, I don’t ever recall hearing “Coptic” applied to all of the Alexandrene tradition. Not even by Fortescue. Yes, the Ethiopian Church shares the Alexandrene tradition, but it is, and has been pretty much from its beginning, fully distinct from the Coptic Church.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well … FWIW, I don’t ever recall hearing “Coptic” applied to all of the Alexandrene tradition. Not even by Fortescue. Yes, the Ethiopian Church shares the Alexandrene tradition, but it is, and has been pretty much from its beginning, fully distinct from the Coptic Church.

Yes, distinct - but this depends on how one understands “Coptic.” I am a “Byzantine,” but according to liturgical tradition only. The Church of Alexandria is still the Mother Church of the Ethiopian and Eritrean Churches, even though the latter two have their own patriarchates.

The Ethiopian Church has, to be sure, her own liturgical traditions that are different and specific to it. For example, as you know, it may follow the Coptic Agpeya, but it has several other ways of praying the daily office e.g. Ethiopian monasteries will do a “cursus” of 12 psalms at the turn of every hour of the day and night in accordance with the Rule of St Pachomios or they can pray the entire psalter by praying it at the various hours.

They also have a wide variety of liturgical musical instruments, including tapping on the floor with their “miquamia” or prayer staffs (I have one such staff that has notches on it, 50 in total, on which one may count prayers! ).

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thank you Alex.

From a ( dumb :doh2: ) Latin Rite Catholic.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Anyone who is devoted to the Magisterium of the Church is not “dumb” but Graced!

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Douglas_William]

Just an invitation to have a look and see the beauty of the Coptic Church’s daily Horologion or “Agpeya”"

www.agpeya.org



Alex

***Many Thanks Alex!

Blessings,
Douglas***

 

[yaHalyna]

I am an Eastern Rite Catholic so I 'm asked lots of questions about everything outside of Roman Catholic. I’m not a theologian but here are my thoughts.
Remember, the apostles went with disciples to spread the word of God all around the world. The world has different languages and different cultures. Now, (just like when I studied the Apocalypse with John) put yourself in their feet. How do you teach the Words of Jesus if you dont know the language or culture?
There is Coptic (Egyptian), Maronite (Syrian), Ukrainian/Ruthenian/Carpathian (Rus) ‘per history’, Greek,and so on.
For example: St Andrew ministered to the Ukrainians. With him were 2 Greeks,Cyril and Methodius. Cyril & Methodius learned the language and put it down in the only way they knew, with Greek words/alphabet (that’s why I can read Greek, though I’m Ukrainian). St Andrew had to learn the ways of the Ukrainians (then called Rus - before the breakoff) to minister to them.
All the differences between Ukrainian/Ruthenian/Coptic/Marionite/Slavic etc.etc. all have to do with nationality.
All any of us really need to know is: IS IT CATHOLIC OR ORTHODOX? Any other differences are nationality based, not religious based.
One of the difficulties in ministry to the Chinese is because they were under the impression that they would have to lose their centuries of culture because of the faith.And ministering to them was very difficult.
There are 2-3 differences between Catholic and Orthodox. However, I have the John Paul II catechism which states that the Catholic Church sees our Orthodox brothers as the same…as the priests are taught as Catholic priests are, and the Catholic Church sees the Communion of the Orthodox as valid as ours (we should not seek them out but it is acceptable as per the Catholic church).
I live 2 blocks from an Orthodox church, so I contacted the priest there. He said he has quite a few Ukrainian Catholics who attend his church, however, his bishop forbids him to give the sacraments to someone who is not Orthodox.
Here’s what really blows my mind:
I was reading about the Great Schism (1066 - separation of Orthodox and Catholics). Before this time there was no such thing as ‘orthodox’. So, I taught my kids that the Catholic faith is the only faith that can trace itself back to Jesus and the original Apostles. Any other faith was a human decision to break away. In my research, I’m finding that the
Catholic side says the orthodox broke away from the church, and the orthodox side says the Catholic broke away from the church. And both have vaid reasons for this.
Which is the true one

 

[Javl]

I can only reply from the Catholic side. But knowing the basic reasoning for the split, I would say the Catholic Church is the true Church. Since the Orthodox Churches refused to accept a central authority ( the Petrine ministry: Peter was put in charge and this has continued through the Popes ) this was the main cause of the split. The Catholic Churches ( all 23 of them ) have all accepted central authority, the Popes, through the ages as the head of Jesus Church, which is the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ciero]

I can only reply from the Catholic side. But knowing the basic reasoning for the split, I would say the Catholic Church is the true Church. Since the Orthodox Churches refused to accept a central authority ( the Petrine ministry: Peter was put in charge and this has continued through the Popes ) this was the main cause of the split. The Catholic Churches ( all 23 of them ) have all accepted central authority, the Popes, through the ages as the head of Jesus Church, which is the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

May I be so bold as to ask what planet you come from?

 

[Javl]

May I be so bold as to ask what planet you come from?

I suppose that you have the “REAL” reason and explanation? I’d suggest you brush up on your history, or have you been roaming in space too?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Malphono,

Well … FWIW, I don’t ever recall hearing “Coptic” applied to all of the Alexandrene tradition. Not even by Fortescue. Yes, the Ethiopian Church shares the Alexandrene tradition, but it is, and has been pretty much from its beginning, fully distinct from the Coptic Church.

It is traditional (for Copts) to equate the “Alexandrian Tradition” with the “Coptic Tradition.” Prior to its canonical independence, it was common enough to regard Ethiopian Orthodox as “Copts.” Of course, as distinguished by brother Alexander, this referred to their religious Tradition, not their nationality. Since their canonical independence, it is more proper not to refer to the Ethiopians as “Copts.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[malphono]

It is traditional (for Copts) to equate the “Alexandrian Tradition” with the “Coptic Tradition.” Prior to its canonical independence, it was common enough to regard Ethiopian Orthodox as “Copts.” Of course, as distinguished by brother Alexander, this referred to their religious Tradition, not their nationality. Since their canonical independence, it is more proper not to refer to the Ethiopians as “Copts.”

Yes, from the Coptic side. The Ethiopian side has traditionally looked at the matter a bit differently. That difference, of course, is a major factor in the full, canonical separation of the two Churches. The presence, e.g., of the Ethiopian monks on the roof of the Holy Sepulchre, which goes back to well before the separation, gives a good indication of that.

 

[ciero]

I suppose that you have the “REAL” reason and explanation? I’d suggest you brush up on your history, or have you been roaming in space too?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Your answer that this schism is due to papal primacy is EXTREMELY simplistic! And also from a triumphalistic Roman Catholic viewpoint. Maybe you should do a bit more homework.

 

[Javl]

Your answer that this schism is due to papal primacy is EXTREMELY simplistic! And also from a triumphalistic Roman Catholic viewpoint. Maybe you should do a bit more homework.

Oh most certainly it is simplistic, according to you. I repeat, what is YOUR story? Also I have done my homework. What books have you been reading?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[mardukm]

I’m on brother Ciero’s side.

Blessings