Copyright Alert System

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Yes, the example I made is supposedly a legal site. But how do you know whether a site is legal or not? 😉

But you guys still don’t get my point. What difference does it make if a person, who has 3 options of watching a tv show, simply chooses one of them?
Are you presenting a scenario that has the moral equivalent between choosing among married sex, extramarital sex, and rape? What difference does it make if the individual simply chooses one of them?
 
Yes, the example I made is supposedly a legal site. But how do you know whether a site is legal or not? 😉

But you guys still don’t get my point. What difference does it make if a person, who has 3 options of watching a tv show, simply chooses one of them?
How would you feel if you owned a home, and you cut your own grass using a lawnmower you bought for the task, and then your neighbors and even strangers came by on a regular basis and took the mower to cut their lawns–without paying any fees, without paying for gas or oil? They just came by and took your property and used it as they saw fit without paying you a dime, and without even giving you the courtesy of asking–how would you feel?
 
:clapping: You just hit the nail on the head. Go tell that to the industries involved. Also tell them the opposite: that illegal does not mean doing the wrong thing. As I said before, I am partially anti-copyrights and anti-patent rights (Apple vs. Samsung, LG vs. Apple… just crazy). Meaning, I don’t fully recognise the legality of such rights. Of course, it means I stand ready to challenge such laws whenever possible.
Just remember that there are moral and immoral ways to challenge a law. We must always choose the moral one. Violation of copyrights is not the moral way in the present society.
 
Are you presenting a scenario that has the moral equivalent between choosing among married sex, extramarital sex, and rape? What difference does it make if the individual simply chooses one of them?
Not the same kind of comparison. What I am refering to is basically a matter of time and convenience.
 
Are you presenting a scenario that has the moral equivalent between choosing among married sex, extramarital sex, and rape? What difference does it make if the individual simply chooses one of them?
How would you feel if you owned a home, and you cut your own grass using a lawnmower you bought for the task, and then your neighbors and even strangers came by on a regular basis and took the mower to cut their lawns–without paying any fees, without paying for gas or oil? They just came by and took your property and used it as they saw fit without paying you a dime, and without even giving you the courtesy of asking–how would you feel?
I would have loved if you guys could address this: how do you know whether a site is legal or not?
 
Example: BlockBuster did not respond in time to meet the challenge made by NetFlix, so BlockBuster is slowly passing into history–that is capitalism at work and I have no issue with that, at all.
I think that’s an apt comparison. The music industry could have dominated the online market if they had set up online store-fronts in the early days and they could have dictated how everything went. But for some reason, they decided to largely ignore the internet, and so the online music market is all-but dictated by the polices of Apple (a little bit Amazon too).

What I’m saying is that it’s a little late for them to cry “fowl!” about the internet when they largely ignored it at the start.
Like all things, the internet and technology offers a lot of good benefits, yet there is always the other side, and in the case of creative work, the downside is lost revenues due to people taking things for free.
Yes, it’s an important issue, but we are obligated to maintain a balance between artist’s rights (well, that’s a bit of a misnomer. It’s closer to “Mega Music Inc.'s rights”) and the private property rights of citizens (which includes the First Sale Doctrine). And too many times the balance is far too much against the ordinary citizen.
Some artists may not want their material on the internet at all–yet in today’s world, someone will illicitly place it on the net and many others will download the same. The moral right for the artist to do what they want with their own property vanishes in those cases and they lose revenue in the process.
I would love you to find one relevant mainstream artist (Prince, or whatever he goes by these days, does not count. I would hesitate to say he was every mainstream) who is opposed to their music being on the internet at all. Maybe you haven’t looked lately, but most major artists put their music video’s on Youtube now (one internet “label”, if you will, is Vevo). You can legally listen to a ton of songs on Youtube that artists themselves (or their representatives) have uploaded. Train or Adele for example.
Also - Ed brought up the point that George Lucas should be compensated if he makes more Star Wars movies. I have no problem with that statement.
I think the officially agreed to rule was that if Lucas wanted to make any more movies, he is required to pay everyone money first. 😛
That is complete nonsense and simple chest thumping. If companies that make quality work die off because they can’t afford to pay anyone - you will get what you’re wishing for.
I don’t see what the problem is. If you can’t get anyone to buy your product (and the vast majority of people will legally pay for a product, and if you think otherwise then you have to provide independent evidence for that), then you go out of business. That’s just life.
Nope. You have it the wrong way around. The barrier of entry has left, for example, the digital book market flooded with the exact same manuscripts my company routinely rejects.
So? Is that a problem? If people are buying this, isn’t that just proving that your company made the wrong decision?

Or are you mad that people can go around the establishment? That is what true capitalism is, being able to work outside of the “big” establishment.
We never felt any pressure now or in the past, to create “better” content. We know what our customers want today which is why we have been in business for so long. Digital delivery doesn’t change anything.
And that is why these businesses will continue to go downhill into oblivion.

Do you not realize the sheer arrogance of your statement? “We know what our customers want”. Who are you, Steve Jobs (who despite being a genius, was still a very arrogant person who was not all that great to work with)? No actually, you don’t. If you think you do, then you are truly deluded or are drinking to much of your own kool-aid. The customer gets to decide what they want.

The companies have been in business so long because it has always been a monopolistic situation (duopoly/oligopoly/whatever you want to classify it as). What the internet has done is broken the monopoly, and that is what actually has the music/movie/book industry scared. You can be an independent music artist and go around the music companies. You can write your own book, hire your own editor, and have it published without needing the big publishing companies and have it available to millions of people who own a Kindle/Kobo. Low barriers to entry is one of the defining features of capitalism.

These companies are just upset that they don’t get to be the gatekeepers of the industry anymore. It’s greed and control, pure and simple.
 
Not the same kind of comparison. What I am referring to is basically a matter of time and convenience.
I disagree, you are willingly ignoring other consequences to other people when it comes to internet stuff but not when it comes to sex. You trained yourself to think that way because it is an easy way to rationalize immoral behaviors. It is faster and more “convenient” to assault a woman then spending years to sustain a relationship that it also includes sexual relations. Paying a prostitute could fall between the other two cases. One is immoral and illegal and the other is moral and legal, the third case could be immoral and still legal.
 
I would have loved if you guys could address this: how do you know whether a site is legal or not?
You appear to pride yourself with your intellectual skills and you are telling me that you are not capable of guessing which is which?:rolleyes:

In any case if you have a suspicion that a site might me illegal then you have an obligation to err on the moral side. Remember that if you think that you are committing a sinful act then you are committing a sin even if the act is not sinful at all.
 
Remember that if you think that you are committing a sinful act then you are committing a sin even if the act is not sinful at all.
That’s baloney theology. Telling people things like this is dangerous because it can lead to a false belief about Catholicism because it is a misrepresentation about the faith. Not only that, you are promoting an overly scrupulous view of morality.

If I think that eating ice cream is a sin and I eat ice cream anyways, I don’t commit a sin because eating ice cream is intrinsically a neutral act. The sinfulness of an act depends on whether or not the act itself is intrinsically sinful (a grave matter in Church-speak), not on whether you think it is sinful (that’s call emotivism, and Catholics are polar opposites of emotivism).

Something that is not a grave matter can never become a grave matter just because you say so or think it is.
 
I would have loved if you guys could address this: how do you know whether a site is legal or not?
It is a simple, though not perfect, method. Nearly all music, and movies, are on a pay-for basis from the owner/copyright holder (they make music and movies for a living, not as a give away work effort). All sites that have no registration and product fees are suspect (some are legit, many are not).

Artists deserve to be paid, and so do the companies that signed the artists.
 
Not the same kind of comparison. What I am refering to is basically a matter of time and convenience.
I think I get what you’re trying to say…maybe. Smart companies have been changing the way they do business. Amazon or B&N require particular software to read their books and makes it difficult to copy. But, they allow you to read it on any of your registered devices with very little hassle. Or companies sell memberships to online video databases (Netflix, Hulu+) which allow for unlimited streaming. And other companies like Pandora & Hulu who sell advertising similar to radio & tv. You can watch them anywhere you want as long as you have computer access.
 
What the internet has done is broken the monopoly, and that is what actually has the music/movie/book industry scared. You can be an independent music artist and go around the music companies. You can write your own book, hire your own editor, and have it published without needing the big publishing companies and have it available to millions of people who own a Kindle/Kobo. Low barriers to entry is one of the defining features of capitalism.
You could always publish a book without the big publishing houses. Book publishers are nothing more than quality control. You can weed through the huge amounts of garbage “published” on the internet, but really who the heck has the time or the patience? Most people seek out the big publishers because they know they will get quality.
 
I’m gonna post this here and also in other subforums.

As someone who both uses the internet heavily and who is also an aspiring musician, I have a huge stake in this discussion and I feel that the issue isn’t being fully or adequately addressed.

I will start this by saying that piracy is indeed bad and immoral. I will not dispute that point. But at the same time I admit that it cannot be stopped.

Why? Two reasons: First, anything digital is now abundant. Digital media can be copied and shared so easily and widely that it’s no longer, to use the economic term, a “scarcity”, but instead has become abundant. All barriers to distribution—scarcity—have been removed and it’s been stripped of most, if not all, of it’s real economic value (although it still retains great social, artistic, political, religious, etc. value).

Secondly, the internet and digital technology have made piracy impossible to stop. The internet is so vast and interconnected that there are a million ways around a block of any kind. Look at Megaupload: Lots of people applauded when the site was taken down and when it’s owner and his companions were arrested. “Online piracy took a huge hit!” they cried. “We’re helping stop online piracy!” they said. Guess what? Within hours all the traffic that used to go to Megaupload went to other sites, and online piracy went back to the same levels they were at prior to the takedown. No effect.

Now that takedown doesn’t sound so impressive anymore. And piracy continues, only that it’s now even more widely distributed than before, making enforcement that much more impossible (much like Mickey Mouse and the brooms in Fantasia).

Now people will complain that this means that content creators such as musicians, authors, and filmmakers will go bankrupt because they won’t be able to make money. This is far from the truth for several reasons. To quote Chris Anderson, author of the book “Free: The Future of a Radical Price”, you have to move away from what’s abundant to what’s scarce.

As an aspiring musician, my music will be so easily copied that it makes no sense for me to monetize it (in fact, I plan to either offer it for free or on a “pay-what-you-want” basis). I will instead monetize what’s truly scarce: myself and my merchandise, namely by touring for pay and selling merchandise to willing fans. In fact, most musicians under both the old and new systems made/make their money this way, since this is where the money’s at.

What about authors you ask? Book tours, seminars, and giving talks for pay are an option. If you have something good to say and you’re an expert in a field, people will pay a premium to get to see you talk about your subject in person. Into fiction? Do readings, book signings, and the like.

And filmmakers? Theaters are still viable, especially the smaller venues.

In the end this all boils down to one thing: The once-scarce-but-now-abundant item you used to monetize (your media) has instead become the marketing for the thing you can monetize (whatever the scarcity is). I don’t know what all those scarcities are, but if you truly want to make it work, find that scarcity and exploit it. Don’t believe me? The TED seminars, for example, cost $6,000 to attend, but videos of the different speeches are put on YouTube for free. A suicidal recipe? To traditionalists, perhaps, until you consider that actually attending the talks gives you unfettered access to the best minds in technology, business, the arts, politics, etc. while the videos only give you the talks themselves, not the chit chat in the lobby after the seminar. TED seminars regularly sell-out and the prices to attend keep rising.

Oh and one other thing: USE PIRACY TO YOUR ADVANTAGE!!! Since it can’t be stopped, EMBRACE IT. Every time somebody pirates something of yours, you are getting free exposure and marketing, the very lifeblood of any artist’s career. This doesn’t make it moral, but since it can’t be stopped, you might as well move with the flow. I know some will say that you’re earning less money as an artist, that you’re condoning evil, etc. But these things fail to recognize the sheer “unstoppability” of piracy, and the fact that fighting it is a losing battle (and constantly proven to be). Don’t believe me? Look at all the rappers and hip hop artists that pirate their own music to raise their profile, get new fans, create buzz about a new album, etc. I’m just trying to be realistic about the situation.

Digressing, I want to address how some here have said that the music, film, and video game markets are collapsing. Wrong. The old guard are dying because they failed to adapt, but not ordinary musicians, filmmakers, and other creative types. I point to a recent study titled “The Sky is Rising” that looked into the effects that abundant digital media had on artists. I quote:
For years now, the legacy entertainment industry has been predicting its own demise, claiming that the rise of technology, by enabling easy duplication and sharing – and thus copyright infringement – is destroying their bottom line. If left unchecked, they say, it is not only they that will suffer, but also the content creators, who will be deprived of a means to make a living. And, with artists lacking an incentive to create, no more art will be produced, starving our culture. While it seems obvious to many that this could not possibly be true, since creators and performers of artistic content existed long before the gatekeepers ever did, we’ve looked into the numbers to get an honest picture of the state of things. What we found is that not only is the sky not falling, as some would have us believe, but it appears that we’re living through an incredible period of abundance and opportunity, with more people producing more content and more money being made than ever before. As it turns out… The Sky Is Rising!
For the visual types, here’s an infographic: cdn.techdirt.com/images/theskyisrising.png

Contrary to some points raised here, the removal of barriers isn’t a bad thing and in fact leads to even greater levels of cultural production. We have more art today than ever before, especially from artists that otherwise would have never been able to get published because the old gatekeepers would have decried their work as “unsellable”, “not popular enough”, “garbage”, etc. And how is that a bad thing? What this means is that us creative types must produce better quality work to get noticed. As it’s always been (even more so now) cream rises. Everything else doesn’t.

Yet others said they had a right to distribute their work their way, by their means. While I support this, you also have to remember that there are more options for consumers today than ever before. Because of this, consumers will readily abandon any service that doesn’t meet their needs. So while you may only want to distribute one way, this is basically shooting yourself in the foot as you are limiting your reach and sales potential. Embrace all options and be open to trying things that may violate your sense of what is the best way to distribute.

Some final points: Some stated that the internet is going to become subject to greater levels of control. I respond thusly: Did you see what happened to SOPA and PIPA? What’s happening to ACTA and TPP? SOPA and PIPA were killed when massive numbers of internet users rose up and flooded Congress with calls and emails demanding the bills be stopped. What happened? Both bills are dead. ACTA and TPP sparked massive protests in the countries that considered signing them (or did) and now many of those countries either changed their minds and refuse to sign them, or are now questioning their necessity. The internet is open, and has been moving in that general direction. More control doesn’t seem to be happening, nor is it realistically possible.

This was definitely a long post, but I hope I hit all the points equally. If you wanna know more, I again recommend the book “Free” by Chris Anderson. As the editor of Wired magazine, he understands this stuff in great detail and really thoroughly describes these issues in his book.
 
You could always publish a book without the big publishing houses. Book publishers are nothing more than quality control. You can weed through the huge amounts of garbage “published” on the internet, but really who the heck has the time or the patience? Most people seek out the big publishers because they know they will get quality.
Or in the case of music, they go to sites like Pitchfork or other music blogs to see what’s new and what the critics are saying.
 
Or in the case of music, they go to sites like Pitchfork or other music blogs to see what’s new and what the critics are saying.
I must be old…I was talking in terms of prior to the internet. 😃

(Please don’t cry. Yes, it was scary times living without cellphones & gaming systems & ipads & internet, but we survived it. Life is all better now.:p)
 
Nope. You have it the wrong way around. The barrier of entry has left, for example, the digital book market flooded with the exact same manuscripts my company routinely rejects.

We never felt any pressure now or in the past, to create “better” content. We know what our customers want today which is why we have been in business for so long. Digital delivery doesn’t change anything.

Finally, brick and mortar? The owners get a choice too:

nytimes.com/2012/05/03/business/after-warning-amazon-about-sales-tactics-target-will-stop-selling-kindles.html

Peace,
Ed
More arrogant chest thumping by you. And you couldn’t be more out of touch with reality and economics with all due respect.

If authors releasing their manuscripts anyways, and people are buying them, then your company made a poor decision and/or is redundant. This is how capitalism works. Your company needs to adapt to the times. Oh, and, if your company really knew want customers wanted, you would have gotten the manuscript.

You sound much like the the buggy companies at the turn of the 20th century complaing about cars.
 
I think that’s an apt comparison. The music industry could have dominated the online market if they had set up online store-fronts in the early days and they could have dictated how everything went. But for some reason, they decided to largely ignore the internet, and so the online music market is all-but dictated by the polices of Apple (a little bit Amazon too).

What I’m saying is that it’s a little late for them to cry “fowl!” about the internet when they largely ignored it at the start.

Yes, it’s an important issue, but we are obligated to maintain a balance between artist’s rights (well, that’s a bit of a misnomer. It’s closer to “Mega Music Inc.'s rights”) and the private property rights of citizens (which includes the First Sale Doctrine). And too many times the balance is far too much against the ordinary citizen.

I would love you to find one relevant mainstream artist (Prince, or whatever he goes by these days, does not count. I would hesitate to say he was every mainstream) who is opposed to their music being on the internet at all. Maybe you haven’t looked lately, but most major artists put their music video’s on Youtube now (one internet “label”, if you will, is Vevo). You can legally listen to a ton of songs on Youtube that artists themselves (or their representatives) have uploaded. Train or Adele for example.

I think the officially agreed to rule was that if Lucas wanted to make any more movies, he is required to pay everyone money first. 😛

I don’t see what the problem is. If you can’t get anyone to buy your product (and the vast majority of people will legally pay for a product, and if you think otherwise then you have to provide independent evidence for that), then you go out of business. That’s just life.

So? Is that a problem? If people are buying this, isn’t that just proving that your company made the wrong decision?

Or are you mad that people can go around the establishment? That is what true capitalism is, being able to work outside of the “big” establishment.

And that is why these businesses will continue to go downhill into oblivion.

Do you not realize the sheer arrogance of your statement? “We know what our customers want”. Who are you, Steve Jobs (who despite being a genius, was still a very arrogant person who was not all that great to work with)? No actually, you don’t. If you think you do, then you are truly deluded or are drinking to much of your own kool-aid. The customer gets to decide what they want.

The companies have been in business so long because it has always been a monopolistic situation (duopoly/oligopoly/whatever you want to classify it as). What the internet has done is broken the monopoly, and that is what actually has the music/movie/book industry scared. You can be an independent music artist and go around the music companies. You can write your own book, hire your own editor, and have it published without needing the big publishing companies and have it available to millions of people who own a Kindle/Kobo. Low barriers to entry is one of the defining features of capitalism.

These companies are just upset that they don’t get to be the gatekeepers of the industry anymore. It’s greed and control, pure and simple.
I agree. This is simple economics and capitalism at work.

The barrier to entry has left with digital distribution models. For example, a writer no longer needs a printing press to mass produce. They can easily sell a million copies of a manuscript.

The problem is that Ed’s company needs to find new ways to add value to the manuscript and reset expectations of revenues and profits. For example, if you want to pay for a professional artist and/or editor. This would make the authors work better.

I give little sympathy to companies that are reluctant to shift their business models.
 
That’s baloney theology. Telling people things like this is dangerous because it can lead to a false belief about Catholicism because it is a misrepresentation about the faith. Not only that, you are promoting an overly scrupulous view of morality.

If I think that eating ice cream is a sin and I eat ice cream anyways, I don’t commit a sin because eating ice cream is intrinsically a neutral act. The sinfulness of an act depends on whether or not the act itself is intrinsically sinful (a grave matter in Church-speak), not on whether you think it is sinful (that’s call emotivism, and Catholics are polar opposites of emotivism).

Something that is not a grave matter can never become a grave matter just because you say so or think it is.
I think that you are theologically confused. Please try to think what sin is and what sinning is. As you said there are a lot of intrinsically neutral acts that can still be sinful. I am not promoting overly scrupulous view of morality I am promoting the right view of morality that is based on three independent principles: intent, act, and circumstances. There is no emotivism in choosing to sin it simply a consequence of our free will.
 
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