Corithians 13: 8-12

[roseproject]

“8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

Is this reading saying that we will forget all of our past knowledge, or that our knowledge of the things we know now will be perfected? To me, verse 12 seems to be clear evidence of the latter, but then verse 8 says “if there be knowledge, it will be done away.” Does this mean all knowledge??

I recently made a forum thread on here about a reading of Isaiah which said, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.”

…but it says love never fails…so, will we remember our family and friends who we loved or not? Will the love for others that we had on earth be carried on to the next life?

This whole issue of forgetting everything in heaven has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I mean, I suppose I could forget the bad things…but then again, wouldn’t it be nice to know why some of those things happened? My mom always told me “We won’t know until we get to Heaven.” The idea of experiencing total amnesia in heaven is a depressing thought. I mean, having friends on earth and experiencing all these things just to completely forget them in the next life?

Sighhhh Well…any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

 

[GEddie]

****Didn’t you start a thread on this topic some days ago?

To address your question, there is no **direct **statement in Scripture that Life Everlasting involves a loss of memory. Trying to interpret Scripture by its vaguer pronouncements leads to trouble.

In that same chapter, SP said that while his knowledge was imperfect, "then I shall know as I am known."

Doesn’t sound like amnesia to me.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

“8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

Is this reading saying that we will forget all of our past knowledge, or that our knowledge of the things we know now will be perfected? To me, verse 12 seems to be clear evidence of the latter, but then verse 8 says “if there be knowledge, it will be done away.” Does this mean all knowledge??

Compare: Childish the the expression 'like a child. The childish things are done away-with, but unless you become ‘like a child’ you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom of heaven belongs to ‘little children’ such as these. Matthew 19:14.

St. Pauls writings are not a really good place to focus this kind of inquiry if you are already emotionally upset. He’s a difficult read even when a person is clear headed and thinking logically because he makes many fine distinctions, and often contrasts subtle points in order to get across his idea. There are several kinds of knowledge being grasped at in this passage but these are all supernatural knowledges (Gifts of God);
He’s not speaking primarily about the normal functioning of the human brain, but the inability of the human brain to accept heavenly gifts to the fullest.

Paul says three things remain after death; Faith, Hope, and Love.
Faith implies we do NOT see everything in heaven; for Faith is the hope of things unseen. Therefore, Even in heaven, we will not be omniscient in ourselves – but must rely on God to fill in where we are insufficient. Have Faith! Rose. It will not be depressing when you get to heaven even though you do not understand why this is so now.

I recently made a forum thread on here about a reading of Isaiah which said, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.”

…but it says love never fails…so, will we remember our family and friends who we loved or not? Will the love for others that we had on earth be carried on to the next life?

God is love; so at least that particular kind of love never fails.

But tell me, what would happen if some of your family was damned (God forbid! but consider it for a hypothetical.) If you were in heaven, and some of them were not?
What then? Is it not clear that what makes you happy – would have to be different from what it is now in order for you to be happy in heaven?

There are only two possibilities: Either what makes you happy now will be found in heaven, or else – you must change – to be happy in heaven. If you go to heaven, whichever of those two is necessary for you – will in fact happen. You may even be the reason your family arrives in heaven … But no one will ever be happy in hell, the best they can hope for is to not be suffering although not rewarded. To be someone who dies in original sin, only.

Again, only an infant could possibly get off without suffering in hell… whether one goes to heaven, or not, then it is best to trust like a child rather than curse like a man.

This whole issue of forgetting everything in heaven has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I mean, I suppose I could forget the bad things…but then again, wouldn’t it be nice to know why some of those things happened? My mom always told me “We won’t know until we get to Heaven.” The idea of experiencing total amnesia in heaven is a depressing thought. I mean, having friends on earth and experiencing all these things just to completely forget them in the next life?

Sighhhh Well…any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

I’m sorry to see some of my comments in the other thread have inflicted some depression. But, be of cheer – I never said you would have ‘amnesia’ – just that knowledge would need to be supplied in a different way. I think you may be trying too hard to obtain certainty about what heaven will be like, when Jesus has refused to tell us for good reasons that only he knows.

Really: It’s not good to go beyond what are Lord is willing to reveal, and better to simply admit to yourself “I don’t know” and “no one else does either” but “Jesus, LORD, I trust in you.”

Peace.
Your brother in Christ, Andrew.

 

[TimothyH]

Christ is truth incarnate. When we know Christ fully we will know all truth.

Knowledge in the Bible wasn’t book knowledge or theoretical knowledge. Knowledge was gnosis, an experiential understanding. This is what Mary means when she says that she has not known man. She has not experienced man.

Please don’t confuse the classic orthodox Christian understanding of gnosis/knowledge with the heresy of gnosticism. They are not the same.

We will have direct experience of God when we see him face to face. Then we will know as we are known.

-Tim-

 

[Beryllos]

Bear in mind that Paul was addressing the Corinthians concerning their prideful attitude toward gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy, speaking in tongues, and inspired knowledge.

Read 1 Cor 12:8-10:

To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Then compare 1 Cor 13:8-12:

Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.

When we come to heaven, we will have complete knowledge. We will no longer have need of prophecy, tongues, or revealed/inspired knowledge. Individuals who on earth were given these gifts will then have no special advantage or privilege. Rather, all will see with equal clarity and know what is.

The metaphor of a child may be helpful. When you were a child, you learned to read with the help of simple books. You no longer have need of those children’s books, but you still remember them, and you can read them and enjoy them whenever you like. (I sometimes do.) Our childish knowledge has not been lost. It has been surpassed. Our earthly knowledge similarly will not be lost to us in heaven, but will be surpassed.

Further reading: collected commentaries on 1 Corinthians 13:8 on BibleHub.

 

[roseproject]

Bear in mind that Paul was addressing the Corinthians concerning their prideful attitude toward gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy, speaking in tongues, and inspired knowledge.

Read 1 Cor 12:8-10:

Then compare 1 Cor 13:8-12:

When we come to heaven, we will have complete knowledge. We will no longer have need of prophecy, tongues, or revealed/inspired knowledge. Individuals who on earth were given these gifts will then have no special advantage or privilege. Rather, all will see with equal clarity and know what is.

The metaphor of a child may be helpful. When you were a child, you learned to read with the help of simple books. You no longer have need of those children’s books, but you still remember them, and you can read them and enjoy them whenever you like. (I sometimes do.) Our childish knowledge has not been lost. It has been surpassed. Our earthly knowledge similarly will not be lost to us in heaven, but will be surpassed.

Further reading: collected commentaries on 1 Corinthians 13:8 on BibleHub.

Thank you. Knowing the context definitely helps

 

[roseproject]

****Didn’t you start a thread on this topic some days ago?QUOTE]

Yeah I did post a similar forum thread a few days ago, but I wanted to approach the topic at a slightly different angle

 

[roseproject]

Compare: Childish the the expression 'like a child. The childish things are done away-with, but unless you become ‘like a child’ you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom of heaven belongs to ‘little children’ such as these. Matthew 19:14.

St. Pauls writings are not a really good place to focus this kind of inquiry if you are already emotionally upset. He’s a difficult read even when a person is clear headed and thinking logically because he makes many fine distinctions, and often contrasts subtle points in order to get across his idea. There are several kinds of knowledge being grasped at in this passage but these are all supernatural knowledges (Gifts of God);
He’s not speaking primarily about the normal functioning of the human brain, but the inability of the human brain to accept heavenly gifts to the fullest.

Paul says three things remain after death; Faith, Hope, and Love.
Faith implies we do NOT see everything in heaven; for Faith is the hope of things unseen. Therefore, Even in heaven, we will not be omniscient in ourselves – but must rely on God to fill in where we are insufficient. Have Faith! Rose. It will not be depressing when you get to heaven even though you do not understand why this is so now.

God is love; so at least that particular kind of love never fails.

But tell me, what would happen if some of your family was damned (God forbid! but consider it for a hypothetical.) If you were in heaven, and some of them were not?
What then? Is it not clear that what makes you happy – would have to be different from what it is now in order for you to be happy in heaven?

There are only two possibilities: Either what makes you happy now will be found in heaven, or else – you must change – to be happy in heaven. If you go to heaven, whichever of those two is necessary for you – will in fact happen. You may even be the reason your family arrives in heaven … But no one will ever be happy in hell, the best they can hope for is to not be suffering although not rewarded. To be someone who dies in original sin, only.

Again, only an infant could possibly get off without suffering in hell… whether one goes to heaven, or not, then it is best to trust like a child rather than curse like a man.

I’m sorry to see some of my comments in the other thread have inflicted some depression. But, be of cheer – I never said you would have ‘amnesia’ – just that knowledge would need to be supplied in a different way. I think you may be trying too hard to obtain certainty about what heaven will be like, when Jesus has refused to tell us for good reasons that only he knows.

Really: It’s not good to go beyond what are Lord is willing to reveal, and better to simply admit to yourself “I don’t know” and “no one else does either” but “Jesus, LORD, I trust in you.”

Peace.
Your brother in Christ, Andrew.

I guess I’m just trying to make sense of this situation: If, theoretically, we do forget things in Heaven, what’s the point of enjoying things in our earthly lives? What would be the point of God creating such a beautiful world if it’s just going to be forgotten and replaced with something better? The point of pursuing dreams, even dreams that are offered up to God?

When I question what the state of our memory in the next life, I question the whole purpose of this present earth; this present existence. Yes, God wanted us to be in a state of journeying, but if it theoretically is forgotten in the end, we’d might as well have just gone straight to the new Heaven and Earth, you know what I mean? This is why this possibility of forgetting confuses me and brings me anxiety right now.

 

[roseproject]

I found something rather interesting in the Catholic encyclopedia…

“The secondary object of the beatific vision comprises everything the blessed may have a reasonable interest in knowing. It includes, in the first place, all the mysteries which the soul believed while on earth. Moreover, the blessed see each other and rejoice in the company of those whom death separated from them. The veneration paid them on earth and the prayers addressed to them are also known to the blessed. All that we have said on the secondary object of the beatific vision is the common and reliable teaching of theologians.”

“They (the souls in Heaven) delight greatly in the company of Christ, the angels, and the saints, and in the reunion with so many who were dear to them on earth.”

There seems to be a pattern of God allowing you to remember aspects of your own life! Yay

Another interesting thing I found in the same encyclopedia:

“In heaven there is not the least pain or sadness; for every aspiration of nature must be finally realized. The will of the blessed is in perfect harmony with the Divine will; they feel displeasure at the sins of men, but without experiencing any real pain.”

They seem to suggest that we remember the reality of sin (I’m not sure if they mean the particular sins we ourselves committed or just the general reality of sin). I wonder how this would be inline with the passage in Isaiah that says, “we will not remember the former things.”?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I guess I’m just trying to make sense of this situation: If, theoretically, we do forget things in Heaven, what’s the point of enjoying things in our earthly lives? What would be the point of God creating such a beautiful world if it’s just going to be forgotten and replaced with something better? The point of pursuing dreams, even dreams that are offered up to God?

When I question what the state of our memory in the next life, I question the whole purpose of this present earth; this present existence. Yes, God wanted us to be in a state of journeying, but if it theoretically is forgotten in the end, we’d might as well have just gone straight to the new Heaven and Earth, you know what I mean? This is why this possibility of forgetting confuses me and brings me anxiety right now.

The purpose of this present world is both the testing, and perfecting, of ourselves for our incorporation in the next. There is no other way for an imperfect being which is capable of ‘growth’ to ‘go’ to the new heaven and Earth. Angels, can not learn through trial and error, and grow; Therefore, their choice was made in a totally different way than ours is; OTOH: I don’t believe angels are ‘amnesiacs’, but they don’t have ‘memory’ in the sense that a human being does, for they have always had access to heaven/eternity.

Time is a dimension; in order to be able to do sequential decision making in the will, there must be a dimension along which change can occur. This dimension can be time, or it could be another dimension not constrained to only height, width, and depth.
In order for us to ‘memorize’ something, one must change the configuration of something from ‘empty’ to ‘copied’ using a dimension.

It’s fairly clear, that even when man is disembodied (temporarily), presuming the ressurected body and memory have not been raised from the dead; that there is a period of time where we could not possibly use the memory of our brains.
eg: the device where memories are stored and can be scientifically and permanently altered, by use of chemicals, etc. and yet these fallible devices can not possibly be what is used for judgment.

In the afterlife, we are given examples of where something analogous to memory is used for the purposes of Judgment; it appears that a memory, if it exists, might in fact, be that which keeps someone in hell.

Consider, in the parable of Abraham and the Rich Man: Luke 16:25
But Abraham replied, ‘Son remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.’

 

[fhansen]

“8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.”

Is this reading saying that we will forget all of our past knowledge, or that our knowledge of the things we know now will be perfected? To me, verse 12 seems to be clear evidence of the latter, but then verse 8 says “if there be knowledge, it will be done away.” Does this mean all knowledge??

I recently made a forum thread on here about a reading of Isaiah which said, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.”

…but it says love never fails…so, will we remember our family and friends who we loved or not? Will the love for others that we had on earth be carried on to the next life?

This whole issue of forgetting everything in heaven has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I mean, I suppose I could forget the bad things…but then again, wouldn’t it be nice to know why some of those things happened? My mom always told me “We won’t know until we get to Heaven.” The idea of experiencing total amnesia in heaven is a depressing thought. I mean, having friends on earth and experiencing all these things just to completely forget them in the next life?

Sighhhh Well…any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Verse 12 means that now we know a little, but then we’ll know much better. He’s speaking about the knowledge of God.