Cormac see end of democracy in the UK?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jedinovice
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jedinovice

Guest
thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23390707-details/It’s%20gay%20rights%20laws%20that%20are%20intolerant,%20says%20Cardinal/article.do

It’s rare for Cormac to kick up a steam. If you read the full text of his lecture (rcdow.org.uk/fileupload/upload/070328CorbishleyLecture%28Final9%292832007211939.doc) he makes it clear he fears for religious liberty here and for democracy.

The dictatorship of relativism is being is been seen by the bishops in the UK - at last!!!

100% guarantee those that need to hear him won’t. Still, I think the Church is realising it can’t negociate with the government and is starting to sound of warnings about coming persecution. I think the reality of the times is finally sinking in. Personally, I think overt persecution of Christians is inevitable. Once you allow homosexual marriage the domino effects automatically mean repression of Christian belief and practise and the imposition of ‘hard’ secularism and/or relativism. How else can you endorse homosexual marriage when every religion with a moral code on the planet rejects it?
 
** from the Cardinal’s speech:***

“My fear is that in an attempt to clear the public square of what are seen as unacceptable intrusions, we weaken the pillars on which that public square is erected, and we will discover that the pillars of pluralism may not survive…”
  • “I am conscious that when an essential core of our democratic freedom risks being undermined, subsequent generations will hold to account those who were able to raise their voices yet stayed silent…”
*“I begin to wonder whether Britain will continue to be a place which protects and welcomes the works of people shaped and inspired by the church…”

"(W)hen Christians stand by their beliefs, they are intolerant dogmatists. When they sin, they are hypocrites. *“When they take the side of the poor, they are soft-headed liberals. When they seek to defend the family, they are Rightwing reactionaries…”

“What looks like liberality is in reality a radical exclusion of religion from the public sphere.”
Jedinovice said:
"…The dictatorship of relativism is being is been seen by the bishops in the UK - at last!!!

100% guarantee those that need to hear him won’t…"
Click to expand...
I agree with you- This will be way too little, too late. Bishops, both in the UK and throughout the world, will here reap what they have sown. After decades of fluff Catholicism, after decades of unclear teaching from the pulpits, after decades of moral relativism that has been allowed to sink into Catholics because many Bishops tried to play fast and loose with Catholic teaching, who, may I ask, will be left with the firm conviction to fight this persecution?

I fear that the “good Cardinal” will find that many “good Catholics” will want to keep their jobs, friends, reputations, and will not want to go to jail over this, I mean, “What’s the big deal? God loves me, right? God doesn’t send people to hell, right? Everyone is allowed to do whatever their conscience thinks is ok, right?” :rolleyes:

Most Catholics have not been taught true Catholic doctrine, much less the consequences of certian actions in the big picture of history, and will not see whats “the big fuss”. In fact, they have been left to the wolves for so long, they will likely gang up against any attempt to “make a stand” at this point, as their church being “intolerant”. They have been made too comfortable in their lives as good citizens of moral relativism.

*“subsequent generations will hold to account those who were able to raise their voices yet stayed silent…” (taken from the Cardinal’s quote above)

*Too bad they were silent for so long. 😦
 
I just want to be fair to Cormac here. I know him (to a degree.) He’s a good man and a very inspiring leader. He is absolutely a pastoral leader. Alas, he is a simple, kind man with a fire for evangelism (really!) but who is not media savvy, not confrontational and has been diverted from his evangelising plans onto constant fire fighting and wrestling with militant secularising forces.

I don’t blame for Cormac for being slow to be hard in public (If anyting - I blame Hume!) It’s not his style and he has tried to avoid confrontation. But I am glad he seems now to be realising this is not a discussion anymore, it’s outright war.

I agree that many will leave the faith under persecution. However, history tends to show that 2-3 generations on you get revival under persecution. The Church in the 1960’s in china was a mess! It really was. But now, 3 generations or so on it’s boom time!

I have zero hope for the short term but high hopes for the long term.

Alas, I think we’re going to lose everything in payment for revival including the Union, the monarchy, Parliament, our economy, even red telephone boxes. Personally, I think it’s all going underwater as the Stalinists take charge.
 
Siena said:
I agree with you- This will be way too little, too late. Bishops, both in the UK and throughout the world, will here reap what they have sown.
Click to expand...
If only it were just the bishops who were going to reap what they have sown! Unfortunately I fear it will be their flocks who will be the hardest hit. We are *all *going to reap what has been sown. Brace for impact, people.

And I hope that no one in the U.S. is feeling overly-confident about the situation there either. Europe and the Americas are the “West”. Australia too. “The West” isn’t about geography so much as a common culture and a common heritage, and what affects the one will sooner or later affect the other. The persecution in Europe will be but a foretaste of what the U.S. and Australia can look forward to, I’m afraid. (Convince me it hasn’t already started there!) Like it or not folks, we’re all in the same boat together.
 
Jedinovice, I didn’t mean to imply Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor was the cause of the problems in the UK, this has been decades worth of soft peddling the faith to the average layman, which would imply generations of bishops and Cardinals across the world, especially the west (with a few brilliant exceptions). Unfortunately, at this last stage of the game, anything less than an aggressive reclaiming of orthodoxy across the board will come up short. In other words, too little, too late.
Moneo said:
… Unfortunately I fear it will be their flocks who will be the hardest hit. We are *all *going to reap what has been sown. Brace for impact, people…
Click to expand...
You are right on, Moneo, and we are about to separate the men from the boys, and the wheat from the chaff. Thank God we can hold on to the Biblical promises, “Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more” and “You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” We can hold on to the Holy Father with confidence, but this is going to be one heck of a ride.
 
Siena said:
Jedinovice, I didn’t mean to imply Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor was the cause of the problems in the UK, this has been decades worth of soft peddling the faith to the average layman, which would imply generations of bishops and Cardinals across the world, especially the west (with a few brilliant exceptions) . Unfortunately, at this last stage of the game, anything less than an aggressive reclaiming of orthodoxy across the board will come up short. In other words, too little, too late.

You are right on, Moneo, and we are about to separate the men from the boys, and the wheat from the chaff. Thank God we can hold on to the Biblical promises, “Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more” and “You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” We can hold on to the Holy Father with confidence, but this is going to be one heck of a ride.
Click to expand...
 
Siena said:
Jedinovice, I didn’t mean to imply Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor was the cause of the problems in the UK, this has been decades worth of soft peddling the faith to the average layman, which would imply generations of bishops and Cardinals across the world, especially the west (with a few brilliant exceptions). Unfortunately, at this last stage of the game, anything less than an aggressive reclaiming of orthodoxy across the board will come up short. In other words, too little, too late.
Click to expand...
Fair comment. In principle I agree with you. The sad thing is that I have known loads of enthusiastic single catholics who the Church virtually kicked out by totally ignoring them. They were orthodox, eager, evangelistic catholics. The Church said, “Can’t use you - sod off.” So they did.

I agree that now it’s all over bar the shouting and we will be in line to lose our jobs and face arrest. But at least the Bishops are deciding, it seems, to go down in the name of God and not despite it.

Two to three generations and the destruction of the UK as a country and an econimy will rectify things. I’m convinced of it!
 
Jedinovice said:
Two to three generations and the destruction of the UK as a country and an econimy will rectify things. I’m convinced of it!
Click to expand...
There are many good Catholics in this country and i predict we are just seeing a revival now. i hope we never need the massive wakeup call of an apocalpyse (economic/ political/ natural).
 
He is actually. But you have to see him on his own turf. cormic is NOT media friendly. He does not know how to handle the media and is camera shy.

But I have known him many years and seen him in action. When he is in a Church setting, when he is dealing with people directly, he is apowerful motivator and very, very inspiring.

He is not a politician though and I think that’s where he fails. he’s a pastor. he’s a motivator, an encourager. He has a heart for the young and lay involvement and he is a GREAT speaker when he’s not on camera. I know MANY people who have been inspired by him - Many. But he’s no good when dealing with media or a political mob. He gets unnerved. He’s a pastor, not a prophet and we live in prophetic times.

I do think he’s in over his head with this government though. I think he’s only just grasping the nature of the dragon he is fightening now.

He’s exactly the kind of man we needed ten years ago.
I think we need Nicholls now. But now Cormac is registering the severity of the problem you could well see him come out fighting. Nevertheless, he is inspiring on his own turf.
 
OK, Well I have never met him so I’ll to trust you on that one.
I HAVE met Archbishop Nicols once or twice and (no disrespect to His Grace) he was not very inspiring.

ps. Feel free to sign my petition, It is to Cardinal Murphy O’Connor.
 
Well, I’ve met him numerous times and he confirmed me. Indeed, his brother baptised me!

Shortly after he was made cardinal he started up the ‘At your word Lord’ venue for mobilising the young people in the Church. I don’t think it was a great success because the Catholic Church is in such bad shape, but he certainly had the ears and hearts of everyone there. He was enabling theyoung people and they loved him for it plus, he recognised they felt alone. Oh yes, he can inspire.

Alas, every time he tries and gets something moving in the Church he is dragged into another attack by the secularists (within and without the gov’t.) Nicholls I don’t know enough about. He’s been more outspoken but Cormac is now starting to sound out as well - even further actually.
 
A friend of mine, indeed, a member of the community I am in who is a European missionary co-ordinator (and considering becoming a priest) said, “Speaking publicly to thousands of people is not a problem for me. Put me in front of a parish Church, though, and I’m terrified.”

Cormac is the reverse. He can speak with confidence in any kind of Church surrounding. He will have the audience eating out of his hand, be it thousands, be it Catholic or Protestant, young or old. In the Church he feels safe and is confident and is truly a pastor. It has been said of Cormac, he was and always will be a priest.

Take him out of the Church and put him in the gaze of the media spotlight, or against secularists and he is stuttering, appears uncertain and can’t think straight. It’s not where he is comfortable or gifted. Alas, one can be a priest of a politician. It is virtually impossible to be both.

I personally think Hume was pastorally useless myself. A great thinker but he did not even seem to see the battles going on around him. Cormac, at least, is starting to tell it like it is!
 
Jedinovice said:
He is actually. But you have to see him on his own turf. cormic is NOT media friendly. He does not know how to handle the media and is camera shy.
Click to expand...
I agree. I’ve only seen him once in person (that I recall) and that was at the Solemn Vespers service for the late Pope. He was good there, and when he writes things I usually like them too.

This lecture is an interesting read, too, though the specifics regarding the adoption agencies do seem rather coloured by the fact that the Church lost her battle against the Government on that one. His example of abortion seems to work rather better.

Edit : the other point is that the democratic process is indeed in trouble in this country, but I’m not convinced that the good Cardinal has put his finger on the correct reasons.

Mike
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top