Corporal Mortification?

[iloveangels]

Br JR,

You have explained penance and mortification beautifully.

In order for mortification to be practiced, yes, it has to be put into perspective and none of the psychological danger signs should be present. Also none should appear subsequently, or the mortification must stop immediately.

 

[iloveangels]

Are you trying to be offensive?

Not at all, TrueLight.

I was a teacher in a Catholic school, and it was there that I saw this phenomenon first. I don’t want to put details in here because of confidentiality but it was associated with the fact that it was a Catholic school in this case.

I’ve also seen it under other conditions. Most teachers have sometime in their career. It’s not so terribly uncommon.

 

[JReducation]

Are you trying to be offensive?

I believe that I understand what she means. There are people who romanticize these things.

For example, people read about St. Francis and they want to walk around barefoot or throw themselves into thorns when they feel sexual arousal.

People read about Teresa of Avila drawing blood and want to do this.

People read about St.X wearing a hair shirt.

Those who romanticize these things miss some key points.

A. Sometimes these folks did these things in very specific situations. The biographers are going to tell us about these exceptional behaviors and leave out the daily ordinary stuff, because the biographer assumes that everyone knows that part. Take St. Francis. Tomas Celano wrote about him going barefoot. He did not mention that this was in the summer. During winter, Francis wore a type of burlap sandal worn by peasants. It doesn’t sound very warm, but it’s not barefooted.

Sometimes the person did these things as they were going through a stage and then they dropped it. This was the case with Teresa of Avila. Eventually, she became very ill. She realized that the best corporal mortification for her was to allow Sister Anna to be her nurse, companion and prayer partner. This was very hard for the independent Teresa. Sister Anna was so kind that it drove Teresa nuts. She would have preferred if Sister showed a little displeasure having to take care of this sick old woman 24/7. Sister Anna never stopped smiling.

At times,these folks have very good spiritual guides who know how much is prudent. Thomas More was a Secular Franciscan. Under his formal clothes, he wore the traditional Franciscan hair shirt and rough tunic. It must have been very uncomfortable during the summer. But Thomas was a man with a balanced mind, a cheerful personality not given to somberness, and very rational. His Franciscan spiritual director knew how much rope he could give Thomas.

Those who read one or two books and never get the chance to go into the archives of the Church’s libraries where you find letters, diaries, and works that were never published, do not know these little details. If the person has a fanciful mind, he or she can easily glamorize what he reads and jump into the lake with all of his clothes on. not a very prudent thing to do.

On the other hand, you have very balanced people who may never have set foot in these libraries or read any of these documents, but they’re bright enough to know that there must be more to the story. These people will find someone who is well versed in the spiritual life and together they discern what is the best form of penance for him or her.

You don’t have to be a scholar in Spiritual Theology to do penance. You have to be a wise man or wise woman. The wise person never jumps into the lake with all of his clothes on, because he’ll be very cold when he comes out. He checks to make sure that there are no rocks below and then lays his clothes neatly where he can get to them again. In simple words, he acts reasonably and carefully.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[iloveangels]

I believe that I understand what she means. There are people who romanticize these things.

For example, people read about St. Francis and they want to walk around barefoot or throw themselves into thorns when they feel sexual arousal.

People read about Teresa of Avila drawing blood and want to do this.

People read about St.X wearing a hair shirt.

Those who romanticize these things miss some key points.

A. Sometimes these folks did these things in very specific situations. The biographers are going to tell us about these exceptional behaviors and leave out the daily ordinary stuff, because the biographer assumes that everyone knows that part. Take St. Francis. Tomas Celano wrote about him going barefoot. He did not mention that this was in the summer. During winter, Francis wore a type of burlap sandal worn by peasants. It doesn’t sound very warm, but it’s not barefooted.

Sometimes the person did these things as they were going through a stage and then they dropped it. This was the case with Teresa of Avila. Eventually, she became very ill. She realized that the best corporal mortification for her was to allow Sister Anna to be her nurse, companion and prayer partner. This was very hard for the independent Teresa. Sister Anna was so kind that it drove Teresa nuts. She would have preferred if Sister showed a little displeasure having to take care of this sick old woman 24/7. Sister Anna never stopped smiling.

At times,these folks have very good spiritual guides who know how much is prudent. Thomas More was a Secular Franciscan. Under his formal clothes, he wore the traditional Franciscan hair shirt and rough tunic. It must have been very uncomfortable during the summer. But Thomas was a man with a balanced mind, a cheerful personality not given to somberness, and very rational. His Franciscan spiritual director knew how much rope he could give Thomas.

Those who read one or two books and never get the chance to go into the archives of the Church’s libraries where you find letters, diaries, and works that were never published, do not know these little details. If the person has a fanciful mind, he or she can easily glamorize what he reads and jump into the lake with all of his clothes on. not a very prudent thing to do.

On the other hand, you have very balanced people who may never have set foot in these libraries or read any of these documents, but they’re bright enough to know that there must be more to the story. These people will find someone who is well versed in the spiritual life and together they discern what is the best form of penance for him or her.

You don’t have to be a scholar in Spiritual Theology to do penance. You have to be a wise man or wise woman. The wise person never jumps into the lake with all of his clothes on, because he’ll be very cold when he comes out. He checks to make sure that there are no rocks below and then lays his clothes neatly where he can get to them again. In simple words, he acts reasonably and carefully.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That’s exactly right. When a person practices extreme penances or mortifications for the right reasons, they don’t get a “kick” out of it, they don’t ruin their health with it, they draw no attention to it, and they do it under the right kind of supervision. And they stop if they are told to stop. In other words, they act reasonably and carefully, as you say.

 

[JReducation]

Br JR,

You have explained penance and mortification beautifully.

In order for mortification to be practiced, yes, it has to be put into perspective and none of the psychological danger signs should be present. Also none should appear subsequently, or the mortification must stop immediately.

Exactly. Our job (spiritual directors) is to help discern what is appropriate for the individual. We’re not gurus. We don’t have all of the answers. But we’re well trained in human behavior, ascetical and mystical theology, and above all, in communication. We learn to hear what the person is not saying.

For some people, like a Francis de Sales, this came naturally. For me . . . well I had to go to school and read everything that Francis de Sales and a lot of other people wrote. That’s life.

I don’t feel badly. Francis de Sales had the gift to guide souls without having to study much spiritual theology. I had to study a lot. However, Francis got stuck being the spiritual director to a bunch of nuns. I escaped that fate.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

I’ll just stick to leaving the sugar out of my coffee!

 

[TrueLight]

That’s exactly right. When a person practices extreme penances or mortifications for the right reasons, they don’t get a “kick” out of it, they don’t ruin their health with it, they draw no attention to it, and they do it under the right kind of supervision. And they stop if they are told to stop. In other words, they act reasonably and carefully, as you say.

Well, you’re saying something different now. I would agree with the way you’re phrasing it. Earlier on in the thread it more sounded like you were painting with a broad brush.

Maybe that’s what you meant all along.

 

[TimothyH]

I’ll just stick to leaving the sugar out of my coffee!

The phrase “Bite your tounge!” came from the idea of mortification.

You told a secret you wern’t supposed to tell or you spoke poorly of someone for no reason and your mom then commanded you to to mortify yourself by that little act of biting your tounge.

Unlike you Peggy, I’ll keep the sugar in my coffee. But I do confess to biting my tounge now and again, especially when I have the urge to shoot off my mouth at someone. I think I’ll stick with that.

-Tim-

 

[JReducation]

The phrase “Bite your tounge!” came from the idea of mortification.

You told a secret you wern’t supposed to tell or you spoke poorly of someone for no reason and your mom then commanded you to to mortify yourself by that little act of biting your tounge.

Unlike you Peggy, I’ll keep the sugar in my coffee. But I do confess to biting my tounge now and again, especially when I have the urge to shoot off my mouth at someone. I think I’ll stick with that.

-Tim-

It’s no secret that Franciscans live with a mandate that says, “if it’s not a sin, you must obey, even if the superior is wrong or you can be dismissed from the order, even excommunicated, depending on the gravity.”

Obviously, we try very hard to do as we’re told. We ask questions when the superior is open to being asked. We offer our opinions when the superior asks us what we think about an order. But not all superiors are cut out of the same bolt of cloth. Canonically, the superior does not have to ask your opinions, consider your feelings, care about your preferences or entertain your questions. He can leave you a note that says, “Pack your bags, tomorrow you’re on the first plane to the North Pole.” It has happened. Not often, thank God.

My point is that over the years, I’ve learned the my greatest mortification is precisely biting my tongue.

First, I was married to a very intelligent woman. No chance of winning an argument there. Why even try? She was an awesome person, bright as an angel and there was no way you could prove her wrong. Soooo, bite your tongue.

Second, I was widowed with two kids. A daughter who took after her mother and a son with autism. My daughter can beat Perry Mason in court. She’s brilliant, smooth, graceful in her debate and even charming when she makes you feel 2 inches tall.

My son had to struggle to find the words to express feelings. More often than not, he acted out his frustrations. Gradually, he mastered communication. Today, he’s very good at it, even though his affect may be rather flat. People find him charming, because his humor is dry. People think he’s witty. They don’t realize that it’s his autism that prevents him from being effusive. Dealing with both, I’ve had to learn to pick my battles, which meant biting my tongue quite often.

Third, I entered religious life and my first superior was the “Living Rule”. If the rule of St. Francis , the commentaries (constitutions) and the canon laws that govern religious life were lost, you could rewrite them by observing this man. So what was the problem? The problem was that he did everything by the rules. Those under his guardianship were expected to do the same. Whenever you messed up, you had no choice but bit your tongue, because he was right, even though he was annoying. I lived with him for three years. I had to bite my tongue for three years and do so with great love. The rule not only says that you obey, but you must love the person you obey. And if you can’t love the man, you must procure to spend time with him in order to grow fond of him . . . more tongue biting. It’s not always easy to live with a saint. Saints can be annoying.

I’ve given up on hair shirts, self flagellation, coffee without sugar (I’ve never liked coffee anyway), I’ve learned that my greatest penance is biting my tongue and liking it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[iloveangels]

Well, you’re saying something different now. I would agree with the way you’re phrasing it. Earlier on in the thread it more sounded like you were painting with a broad brush.

Maybe that’s what you meant all along.

I was painting with a broad brush because what I was seeing was a broad brush approach when I came into this thread, including a photo of a discipline on the first page, mention of cilices and all that sort of thing. This is not the kind of thing that people should play around with or take lightly. At. All.

For a few people in a thousand, it might be appropriate to consider something like this with a spiritual advisor. For all the other people in that thousand, when you see this stuff being waved around, it’s either morbid curiosity or time to see a doctor. Seriously.

About mortifications, Br JR has explained the idea much better than I could have.

And remember: when Br JR talks about some people using it in the order, he’s not talking about the general population like we have here in CAF.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for the response. I used self-flagellation because a) that’s what it is and b) most people (including priests) today wouldn’t understand what “the discipline” was/is if you asked them about it.
http://cn1.kaboodle.com/img/c/0/0/1...ails-whip--leather-whip-8.jpg?v=1299473503000
The Discipline

There is a reason for this. The discipline is not a secular practice. It is a regular practice. Those secular priests who adopted it learned it from religious. It was never taught in secular seminaries nor was it ever expected of secular priests in any of the 23 Catholic Churches.

The proper term is The Discipline, not self flagellation.

The Discipline was begun by St. Benedict and it was never meant to do harm. You’re supposed to feel it, but not do harm with it. From the monks, it passed on to the mendicants. From the mendicants, it passed down to the congregations.

Along the way, secular Catholics, clergy and lay, learned of it and asked to be taught. One of them was St. John Vianney. He was taught by a Capuchin. When the Capuchin found out that St. John was drawing blood, he ordered him to stop. St. John complied. It was agreed that St. John was getting carried away. I have no idea what form of penance replaced it.

Since 70% of our priests are secular men, they have no reason to know what The Discipline is. It’s like asking them about the Chapter of Faults. They don’t know what that is either.

Sometimes, we Catholics expect things from our secular priests that are unreasonable to expect. They are not religious. They have no formation in religious life or religious traditions. Even Spirituality and Spiritual Theology is offered as an elective to them, whereas all religious men, whether they’re going to be ordained or not ordained, must spend 6 to 10 years studying spirituality. That’s where you would learn about The Discipline, the Chatper of Faults, the Culpa, corporal mortification, interior silence, external discipline, control of the affect and all of those other penitential terms.

The typical secular priest, diocesan or in a society, would know what the CCC teaches, no more, unless he chose to take some extra courses or hung around religious and learned from us.

Be gentle on these guys. It’s like asking an OB/GYN to talk to you about Otitis Media. The OB/GYN and the ENT are physicians, but they know very little about each other’s work. The same happens to priests. Put a bunch of order priests together and they don’t need a dictionary. Put a bunch of clerks regular together and they don’t need a dictionary. Put a bunch of diocesan and other secular priests and they don’t need a dictionary.

Now let’s have some fun. Take one priest from a religious order, one from a religious congregation and one from a diocese and ask them a question like “What’s the culpa?”

Only the Order priests will know the answer. The religious from congregations will go and the diocesans will guess that it must have something to do with the confiteor.

Change up the question. Ask them, “What’s the common table?” Only the religious priests from the congregations will know the answer. The others will go

It’s like taking medical doctors from different areas and throwing them into a room to answer questions about one area. Everyone else will just sit and watch, unless they’ve been exposed to that particular branch of medicine. Which is very rarely the case. The same happens in theology. It’s like medical school. You get a pinch of this and a dash of that. Only those who become theologians get the full package. Most priests never become theologians, nor do they become religious.

Be nice to our guys. But for God’s sake, cal it by its proper name, The Discipline, because that is its purpose. Its purpose is not flagellation. You’re not supposed to give yourself a whipping.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hazcompat]

1 Corinthians 9:25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.*

usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/9

THE SPIRITUAL LIFE

       A TREATISE ON ASCETICAL AND MYSTICAL THEOLOGY

     by the Very Reverend Adolphe Tanquerey, S.S., D.D.

#754. III. Definition. Mortification, then, may be defined as the struggle against our evil inclinations in order to subject them to the will, and the will to God. It is not so much a virtue as an ensemble of virtues–the first degree of all the virtues–which consists in overcoming the obstacles that stand in the way so as to restore to our faculties their lost balance and reestablish among them their right order. Thus it is easily seen that
mortification is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. We mortify ourselves only to live a higher life; we despoil ourselves of external goods only the better to lay hold of spiritual goods; we renounce self but to possess God; we struggle but to obtain
peace; we die to ourselves but to live the life of Christ, the life of God. Hence, the end of mortification is union with God.

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/SLP2B1C3.TXT

peace

 

[JReducation]

Thanks for sharing this. His work is a classical must read in Ascetical and Mystical Theology. It was, when I was getting my degree in that field. I imagine it still is.

I’m going to do a Fr. Z. These are my **highlights **and these are my comments.

1 Corinthians 9:25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No,** I drive my body and train it**, the whole concept of discplining the body rather than harming the body] for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.*

usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/9

THE SPIRITUAL LIFE

       A TREATISE ON ASCETICAL AND MYSTICAL THEOLOGY

     by the Very Reverend Adolphe Tanquerey, S.S., D.D.

#754. III. Definition. Mortification, then, may be defined as the struggle against our evil inclinations in order to subject them to the will, and the will to God Our mortification is about God not about us.** It is not so much a virtue as an ensemble of virtues** Here is that tapestry–the first degree of all the virtues–which consists in overcoming the obstacles that stand in the way so as to restore to our faculties their lost balance and reestablish among them their right order. Thus it is easily seen that mortification is not an end in itself, but a means to an end. the end of all discipline is the perfection of charityWe mortify ourselves only to live a higher life; the life of lovewe despoil ourselves of external goods only the better to lay hold of spiritual goods; we renounce self but to possess God; we struggle but to obtain peace; we die to ourselves but to live the life of Christ, the life of God.** Hence, the end of mortification is union with God.** to conform ourselves to Christ

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/SLP2B1C3.TXT

peace

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I’ll just stick to leaving the sugar out of my coffee!

That would be hard for me. I can do without all other sweets during Lent, but black, unsugared, unmilked coffee is just too hard!

 

[JReducation]

That would be hard for me. I can do without all other sweets during Lent, but black, unsugared, unmilked coffee is just too hard!

How about the sugar without the coffee?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

How about the sugar without the coffee?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well, it has been said of me that I like a little coffee with my milk!

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I’ve given up on hair shirts, self flagellation, coffee without sugar (I’ve never liked coffee anyway), I’ve learned that my greatest penance is biting my tongue and liking it.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. Jay,
I so understand this “biting my tongue” thing.
For me, this is one of the hardest things I have had to learn.
“Respond, don’t react”, is what my spiritual director says! :getholy:
I am getting much better, and the change in me has been noticed by others.
However, "liking it" is a whole other story!! :bigyikes:

How do you get to that point?!

Please share that wisdom!!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, it has been said of me that I like a little coffee with my milk!

Peggy, any time you want to have coffee with me, I’m ready!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Br. Jay,
I so understand this “biting my tongue” thing.
For me, this is one of the hardest things I have had to learn.
“Respond, don’t react”, is what my spiritual director says! :getholy:
I am getting much better, and the change in me has been noticed by others.
However, "liking it" is a whole other story!! :bigyikes:

How do you get to that point?!

Please share that wisdom!!

Oh yes! The prayer for humility I understand, but to pray that my enemies actaully prosper, even at my own expense, is just so very, very hard!

 

[Cormacnl]

As to the use of other sorts of mortification (beyond ordinary or small) … discuss with ones confessor/spiritual director.

Regarding bodily mortification:

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

Before embarking on corporal mortification discuss it with your doctor. He or she will tell you not to be stupid. There are plenty of ways to serve God without harming your body and causing unnecessary pain.

Anyway, if you think pain is the cure you need, there is a whole world out there ready to oblige. You don’t need to self-medicate.