T
theidler
Guest
I drink it everyday!That would be hard for me. I can do without all other sweets during Lent, but black, unsugared, unmilked coffee is just too hard!
- Status
T
theidler
Guest
You’re completely missing the point and obviously have zero understanding as of yet as to why the greatest saints and doctors of the church all practiced some form of asceticism. Not even just Christians, but the Jewish Essenes, the Epicureans, the Stoics, the Buddha…
J
JReducation
Guest
Checking with your doctor is good advice. You certainly should know if you’re pregnant, diabetic, anemic or have another medical condition that requires that you refrain from fasting and requires that you consume animal protein.
I don’t fast, ever. I’m dying of cancer and am diabetic. If I don’t put food into my body, the insulin can kill me, not to mention that chemotherapy kills your immune system. My body needs other ways to protect itself from infection.
Once you have a clean bill of health, then you can speak to your spiritual director to see if you’re spiritually mature enough. Discipline has to be taken on in proportion to one’s physical health, age and emotional maturity.
That’s the reason that we have a society of narcissistic people whose only goal in life is to please themselves. When they were children, someone forgot to tell them that to succeed in life, one has to work on self-mastery along with the acquisition of knowledge and concrete skills.
In fact, if you examine Kohlberg’s scale of emotional development, asceticism is a prerequisite to achieve the ability to make objective moral judgments, which is the highest level of moral development.
Eric Erickson tell us that man’s physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual growth is epigenetic. One stage builds on another, but we can’t move from one to another, unless we have mastered the prerequisite state. He points out that such mastery of a particular stage involves a proportionate degree of asceticism, because the individual has to learn control over mind and body in order to move along the stages.
Piaget told us that cognitive development is the by-product of biological development. The mind cannot do what is impossible for the body. Therefore,in order for the human mind to transcend beyond the concrete to the abstract, which is the level at which we begin to encounter the eternal God, the individual must have the proper biological tools, just as he needs these same biological tools to earn a gold medal at the Olympics or to solve the mystery of a black hole.
Finally, Sigmund Freud, despite many mistakes that he made in his theories of pschoanalysis got one thing right. The only way to overcome emotional neurosis is to discipline the body. Neurosis is a weakness in one’s inability to think rationally. However, we learn to discipline the mind only to the degree that we discipline the body.
As Augustine reminds us, man is not mind, body and soul, existinting independently of each other. Contrary to what the Gnostics believed, the body and mind learn together for the good of the soul. Asceticism is a form of discipline. Discipline is a necessity, not a luxury.
Without discipline the mind does not reach its full potential. Without that, the individual cannot give to God every good that is inherently within him. He as to draw it out. To do this, he must first drive away the obstacles that stand in the way of growth.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
Peggy_in_Burien
Guest
Then, for Lent you should drink it full of sugar and milk!I drink it everyday!
P
Peggy_in_Burien
Guest
My prayers are with you, Brother JR. My diabetes is what keeps me from fasting, too, so I do the little things like drinking the coffee without sweeteners or milk.Checking with your doctor is good advice. You certainly should know if you’re pregnant, diabetic, anemic or have another medical condition that requires that you refrain from fasting and requires that you consume animal protein.
I don’t fast, ever. I’m dying of cancer and am diabetic. If I don’t put food into my body, the insulin can kill me, not to mention that chemotherapy kills your immune system. My body needs other ways to protect itself from infection.
Once you have a clean bill of health, then you can speak to your spiritual director to see if you’re spiritually mature enough. Discipline has to be taken on in proportion to one’s physical health, age and emotional maturity.
That’s the reason that we have a society of narcissistic people whose only goal in life is to please themselves. When they were children, someone forgot to tell them that to succeed in life, one has to work on self-mastery along with the acquisition of knowledge and concrete skills.
In fact, if you examine Kohlberg’s scale of emotional development, asceticism is a prerequisite to achieve the ability to make objective moral judgments, which is the highest level of moral development.
Eric Erickson tell us that man’s physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual growth is epigenetic. One stage builds on another, but we can’t move from one to another, unless we have mastered the prerequisite state. He points out that such mastery of a particular stage involves a proportionate degree of asceticism, because the individual has to learn control over mind and body in order to move along the stages.
Piaget told us that cognitive development is the by-product of biological development. The mind cannot do what is impossible for the body. Therefore,in order for the human mind to transcend beyond the concrete to the abstract, which is the level at which we begin to encounter the eternal God, the individual must have the proper biological tools, just as he needs these same biological tools to earn a gold medal at the Olympics or to solve the mystery of a black hole.
Finally, Sigmund Freud, despite many mistakes that he made in his theories of pschoanalysis got one thing right. The only way to overcome emotional neurosis is to discipline the body. Neurosis is a weakness in one’s inability to think rationally. However, we learn to discipline the mind only to the degree that we discipline the body.
As Augustine reminds us, man is not mind, body and soul, existinting independently of each other. Contrary to what the Gnostics believed, the body and mind learn together for the good of the soul. Asceticism is a form of discipline. Discipline is a necessity, not a luxury.
Without discipline the mind does not reach its full potential. Without that, the individual cannot give to God every good that is inherently within him. He as to draw it out. To do this, he must first drive away the obstacles that stand in the way of growth.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
S
Snugglebugmom
Guest
Brother JR, you are in my prayers. And I thank you for your contributions to this thread, it has been really enlightening for me!
I
iloveangels
Guest
If a person has to do really weird things to themselves to have enough penance however, that person may not be living the Christian life thoroughly enough.
Asceticism can come in a lot of different forms. Asceticism can be the result of making Christian choices in un-Christian situations, which are increasingly prevalent these days. Asceticism can be giving something up so that someone else can have what they need. Asceticism can be going physically out of your way for someone else and not throwing it in their faces. Asceticism can be accepting peacefully what God has given you, and doing the best with it you can without complaining. Asceticism can be working through a dry or painful spiritual life without complaint and without giving up. Asceticism can be a lot of very Christian, very ordinary things that no one really notices except you and God.
Weird penances can be “easy ways out” for people just looking for a spiritual “kick.” The weirder they are, the more they are accompanied with protests and flowery language, and the less they are accompanied by virtue, charity toward others and civility, the more likely they are to be somebody just getting their “spiritual kicks.”
J
JReducation
Guest
Thank you very much. It was so funny, because in Oct I was rushed to the ER with a TMI. After the crisis was over, my doctor said (exact quote) “Brother, someone is up there is looking out for you. By all standards, your body should not have withstood this TMI. We told you this a year ago.”
One of the brothers said to him, “The answer to that is easy. He has a few things do to hear,” and the superior said, “Besides, he’s the community’s compass.”
I thought to myself, “If you only knew that God is just not ready for deal me me yet . . . too much of a headache.”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TimothyH
Guest
Brother, would you please arrange so that if something sudden does happen, we here on CAF who love you could have some sort of notification? You mean the world to us, and we would like to know.
-Tim-
-Tim-
T
theidler
Guest
True enough, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that up until now, many of the saints have always recommended the practice of asceticism in a physical way, be it fasting, the discipline, whichever. Even the mildest of Saints, like Francis de Sales recommended it under the proper spiritual direction. If you think people do it for a kick, I’m not sure what to say to that. Maybe some do, I don’t know. I don’t care either - just because someone does practice some form of corporal mortification under the proper spiritual guidance does not make them a nutcase or whatever else. If that’s the case, then all of the saints are nuts too then.
J
JReducation
Guest
Thank you. I will ask one of the brothers. I hope that don’t go anywhere, just yet. I’d rather do time here than in Purgatory. You know the old saying, “Better the devil you know . . . .”
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
For me, going down to Planned Parenthood and being there, knowing that babies are being killed while I am praying…sometimes watching the women go in, and being there when they come out after their abortion, is terrible mortification. I would actually LOVE to use the discipline because the anguish I feel would make sense if there was physical pain as well. You can say I’m sick or whatever, but it is agony to know the murder goes on, day after day, and I can do nothing to stop it, but pray, and pray…I have offered any pain I have ever experienced and ever will experience, if only God can stop the slaughter…I am probably offering up the wrong thing in my deluded way…
This thread is very helpful to me. Especially Brother JR’s explanations. I just love reading every post from you, Brother JR. You are such a kind person.
This thread is very helpful to me. Especially Brother JR’s explanations. I just love reading every post from you, Brother JR. You are such a kind person.
C
centurionguard
Guest
I thought the Church laid down some strict laws concerning severe types of Corporal Mortification that would be a risk to life possibly causing self-inflicted illness which could be become an act of sin itself. But your right without speaking to a spiritual director people could be doing themselves serious harm.A word of warning, perhaps unnecessary, but you never know… Don’t start rigorous self-mortification without talking to your spiritual director. Not everyone is cut out to do these things, and for some people they may pose a grave risk. Especially those who tend toward scrupulosity. You can do a lot of damage if you start carrying self-imposed crosses.
L
Leegal
Guest
Would this be recommended for a Catechumen – depending on the corporal punishment? I mean aside from the things we give up for Lent and other sacrifices. My concern is that the OP is a Catechumen. You are a member of a religious Order – there’s spiritual direction and years of learning before one gets to the point where one can discern the differences, as in your example of assigning a prayer schedule to a fellow Brother who would find that more difficult to stick to a prayer schedule than it would be if you told him to whip himself. You are in a position to “know.”You don’t have to be a scholar in Spiritual Theology to do penance. You have to be a wise man or wise woman. The wise person never jumps into the lake with all of his clothes on, because he’ll be very cold when he comes out. He checks to make sure that there are no rocks below and then lays his clothes neatly where he can get to them again. In simple words, he acts reasonably and carefully.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I think, depending on the OP’s definition of corporal punishment, that the question concerns me when it comes from a Catechumen. Merely the opinion of a lay person, but I would like to know if this is advisable when one is a Catechumen and has not yet been fully instructed into the Church?
God Bless.
T
theidler
Guest
Firstly, I am not advocating it for myself, I am simply asking a general question and stating that the issue is raised in a favorable albeit cautious light by many saints in history. I respect the Brother’s viewpoint - there is no doubt about that.
Secondly, I do not appreciate the condescending tone that seems to be inherent in your post here. Just because I am a catechumen does not mean I am not instructed in the faith, nor does it mean I have not studied it intensely for some time now. What is wrong with a catechumen asking these kinds of questions anyways? Am I not allowed to know or wonder?
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
I’ll bet you know more about the Church than I, a cradle Catholic who fell away for 20+ years. Yes, of course you can ask and wonder!
L
Leegal
Guest
I intended no disrespect, but everyone here seems to be of a different view as to what corporal punishment is. I thought to ask the Brother about Catechumens and the advisability depending on the definition of corporal punishment. I’m sorry if I offended you, but I think it’s something that should be asked.
It was not the asking that I questioned, but whether of not a Catechum should be thinking of undertaking corporal punishment dependiing what corporal punishment the OP means.
T
theidler
Guest
That’s alright - it just came off that way. I am not asking necessarily for myself, I am just asking in general. In all the lives of the saints, I read that they practiced some kind of asceticism, and am mostly wondering why it has fallen out of practice in the last century or so.
H
hazcompat
Guest
THE BOOK OF DIVINE CONSOLATION OF THE BLESSED ANGELA OF FOLIGNO : TRANSLATED
FROM THE ITALIAN BY MARY G. STEEGMANN : INTRODUCTION BY ALGAR THOROLD
CHATTO AND WINDUS : LONDON NEW YORK : DUFFIELD 6" CO. 1909
Introduction Paragraphs 7-9
Now the Saint represents the achievement of this longing for power, carried to the highest and most difficult point, that of complete self-mastery. For while, to the primitive savage, the conquest of external foes of one sort and another is evidently the most pressing need of his position, a need recurring so constantly as to exhaust his store of energy, and veil from his attention other possible achievements, as life gets more secure and his attention is directed inwards, man becomes aware of those other dangerous foes of his own household, the appetites and caprices of his inherited brute nature.
Turning to battle with these, he dimly but surely perceives one aspect of the ideal of sainthood. For the Saints of all religions, from the most elementary to the most highly developed, are ascetics. They live sparely and chastely, and the mortification of the twin appetites of hunger and love represent to the ordinary man the acme of self-control.
The Saint is also more than the ascetic. Asceticism is a refusal, a limitation, a constraint in a word, a negation ; and the Saint is eminently positive. Moreover, although negative qualities might impose on the imagination and create interest, they would not inspire the personal devotion that is invariably felt for him. The positive quality of the Saint is love, expressing itself in joy. Thus he is a fascinating combination of the familiar and the unfamiliar, for, if few of us are ascetics, we have most of us some experience of love. But the Saint drinks from the Castalian spring of his interior life while we hand about the Divinity to each other in treacherous and remarkably " earthen vessels." His love is not as ours at the mercy of circumstances, it is not susceptible of betrayal or death, for he has found his treasure beyond time and space, where neither satiety nor caprice can corrupt, nor can rivals break through and steal.
peace
FROM THE ITALIAN BY MARY G. STEEGMANN : INTRODUCTION BY ALGAR THOROLD
CHATTO AND WINDUS : LONDON NEW YORK : DUFFIELD 6" CO. 1909
Introduction Paragraphs 7-9
Now the Saint represents the achievement of this longing for power, carried to the highest and most difficult point, that of complete self-mastery. For while, to the primitive savage, the conquest of external foes of one sort and another is evidently the most pressing need of his position, a need recurring so constantly as to exhaust his store of energy, and veil from his attention other possible achievements, as life gets more secure and his attention is directed inwards, man becomes aware of those other dangerous foes of his own household, the appetites and caprices of his inherited brute nature.
Turning to battle with these, he dimly but surely perceives one aspect of the ideal of sainthood. For the Saints of all religions, from the most elementary to the most highly developed, are ascetics. They live sparely and chastely, and the mortification of the twin appetites of hunger and love represent to the ordinary man the acme of self-control.
The Saint is also more than the ascetic. Asceticism is a refusal, a limitation, a constraint in a word, a negation ; and the Saint is eminently positive. Moreover, although negative qualities might impose on the imagination and create interest, they would not inspire the personal devotion that is invariably felt for him. The positive quality of the Saint is love, expressing itself in joy. Thus he is a fascinating combination of the familiar and the unfamiliar, for, if few of us are ascetics, we have most of us some experience of love. But the Saint drinks from the Castalian spring of his interior life while we hand about the Divinity to each other in treacherous and remarkably " earthen vessels." His love is not as ours at the mercy of circumstances, it is not susceptible of betrayal or death, for he has found his treasure beyond time and space, where neither satiety nor caprice can corrupt, nor can rivals break through and steal.
peace
T
theidler
Guest
Thanks:blush:, but I don’t think I am particularly knowledgeable, I just try to know what it is I believe in.
- Status