Corporal Mortification?

[JReducation]

Corporal mortification has degrees, from denying oneself that extra cup of coffee in the morning to the use of the discipline. Even the use of the discipline has degrees. I know, because we use it in our community.

It is arrogant, beyond definition, for anyone to think that they can jump into corporal mortification as they read about in the lives of some of the saints.

First of all, not all of these men and women were healthy.

Second, those who were healthy were overseen by either or both their spiritual director and their religious superiors.

Third, the intensity of the mortification is not what makes one holy, but the degree to which one experiences contrition for one’s sins.

When someone asks me about this in spiritual direction, my first question to myself is whether this person has the grace for such things. We enter into a discernment of spirits, which leads us down the path of gentle but not so pleasant mortification. You may think that giving up that extra cup of coffee is no big sacrifice, until you try it or that cigarette after dinner. For one person whom I directed the greatest mortification was not the discipline. I could have told him to whip himself until he filled the blood bank and it would not have bothered him. His greatest mortification was when I regulated his prayer schedule. The very idea of not being in control was mortification.

Mortification comes in many shapes and packages. Constult with a spiritual director. But make sure that he’s trained in spiritual theology. You can ask him. Deacons, priests, brothers and sisters will tell you if they are or not. Most secular priests are not trained in spiritual theology. It’s not a required area of study in the seminary, not even for the SSPX or FSSP. It’s an elective area.

Male religious are trained in spirituality. You can’t make final vows until you have gone through six to 10 years of formation in Christian spirituality. However, it’s Christian sprituality with the emphasis from your order. If you want to get knowledge of other schools of Christian Spirituality,you do what I did. You go out and you get a post graduate degree in the area, just as someone would go out and get a degree in Canon Law or Sacred Scripture. These are post graduate degrees that you achieve after you have completed eight years of college and graduate school. You go for another three to five years, depending on whether you want an STB, STL or STD.

In any case, even if your spiritual director does not have the post graduate degree,he should have training that he received in the seminary or through hands-on experience. Some people are natural. I’m thinking of St. John Vianney, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Francis de Sales, Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi. There were others who went to school for this such as Pope Benedict. He has degrees in Franciscan and Augustinian Spirituality. His two friends are Bonaventure and Augustine.

Always consult with someone who knows you and knows the field of spirituality.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oneofthewomen]

@ Br. Jay!! Thank you!! This post was awesome, as always!!

We can always do this for Lent!

I thought about giving up coffee for Lent last year.
My spiriual director reminded me that “giving up” something for Lent was supposed to be a penance for ME,
not for the people I live & work with!!

 

[Snugglebugmom]

I thought about giving up coffee for Lent last year.
My spiriual director reminded me that “giving up” something for Lent was supposed to be a penance for ME,
not for the people I live & work with!!

And that is exactly why I don’t even consider giving up coffee for Lent. It would constitute cruel and unusual punishment… for my family.

 

[mommyof4]

JR, thank you for the post. It was very helpful.

 

[puzzleannie]

We can always do this for Lent!

oooooh noooooo not Lent! I can’t get through all the RCIA stuff w/o caffeine, let alone Holy Saturday and the Vigil. Hey I just got a great idea, GDD tells me vampries are out, zombies are in. Do you suppose if I do take the challenge I can advertise Zombie RCIA and I might get better attendance? there! see! what happens when I post w/o my coffee!!??

srsly anyone who has ever trained for a marathon, competed on Biggest Loser, been a professional dancer (or undergone chemo and radiation) knows all about corporal mortification, so punishing your body to attain a higher goal is not the issue here. The reason for the practice is the issue. If it is undertaken in union with Christ’s suffering and to combat the sin and tendency to sin that caused that suffering it has value. Without that union, it is usesless (but you might still lose weight).

Actually it may happen because I am in evaluation now for a semi-liquid diet plan that will last 12 weeks in preparation for possible consideration for bariatric surgery, and while there are coffee flavored shakes, they do wean you off caffeine in the process. I have a journal from a Christian weightloss counsellor (not Catholic, but the material is orthodox) which is essentially a self-guided bible study on the biblical basis for fasting (found it at the dollar store of all places). Sometimes Evangelicals can sound quite Catholic on some topics. So I do hope to place this whole thing in the context of my spiritual growth, pray for me.

 

[iloveangels]

Corporal mortification is a form of mental illness.

It can be. It can be sort of like “cutting” yourself to relieve stress, something occasionally seen in teenaged children with bad home lives. Some people get really stressed out over religion and opt to use a method like this to “convert” that into relief or pleasure, yes. It can be much more psychological than religious and they may not even be aware of what they’re really doing. When they talk about the “dangers” of corporal mortification, this is what they’re often talking about.

You should NEVER try this unless and until you are talking to a legitimate spiritual advisor. I can be habit-forming too and/or escalate. Bad news.

At the very least, it can take the place of legitimate Christian behavior, ie. pray, go to Mass, feed the poor, visit the prisoner, etc. etc.

 

[iloveangels]

We are talking self imposed pushishment , (not giving up milk in coffee) and anyone thinking of or doing it needs help asap not a spirtual advisor to tell them how to do it.
Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, we shouldn’t even get tatoos.

No different than teen girls who cut themselves (who also need professional help) . If one thinks they may get to heaven or even get a blessing from God for doing it they are not.

This is true. Technically we shouldn’t even have our ears (or anything else) pierced. It’s a form of self-mutilation. It’s not generally “stress conversion” like some of the other methods discussed in here, although it could be, I suppose, for someone really stressed out about their appearance. This is a little different than what most people are talking about in here, though. In here, the discussion is about mortification for religious purposes, either to detach one from sin OR relieve religious stress by the psychological process of stress conversion. I’m pretty sure that the motivation varies on a case by case basis.

I’m not talking about regular penance which are things more like: not gossiping when you want to, doing without the thing that will cost or inconvenience others in some way, praying a little longer, reading scripture daily, doing more good for others, calling your parents when you might not want to, checking on the neighbor who lives alone rather than watching tv, etc. etc. etc. These are the penances 99.9999999% of the people should be interested in, rather than the whips and chains route, which that same large percentage of people have no business messing with.

The ancient meaning of the word “penance” is turning your life towards God. The meaning we use in modern English is only a small subset of that. Word usage changes with time. Be aware of this when you read Catholic materials. Also, be aware of the perils of hagiography–telling a good story. That’s the origin of some of this lore.

 

[Bookcat]

And that is exactly why I don’t even consider giving up coffee for Lent.

Yes give me a hairshirt instead

 

[iloveangels]

PS, people curtail food all the time as penance, thinking they might lose weight in the process. Get a grip. Even pagans go on diets, but they’re honest about it. In American culture, it’s necessary to learn that you don’t have to eat everything you see. That’s not penance. That’s self-preservation and good sense.

 

[mommyof4]

PS, people curtail food all the time as penance, thinking they might lose weight in the process. Get a grip. Even pagans go on diets, but they’re honest about it. In American culture, it’s necessary to learn that you don’t have to eat everything you see. That’s not penance. That’s self-preservation and good sense.

I see what you mean, and I don’t disagree. But I am in serious need of loosing some pounds. How do I do it and benefit spiritually as well? I really would like to gain spiritually in this painful process, too.

 

[TimothyH]

Corporal mortification is a form of mental illness.

God himself became man so that he could be tortured and visciously murdered for you.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, (Colossians 1:24)

I think you are confusing masochism with Christian suffering.

-Tim-

 

[iloveangels]

God himself became man so that he could be tortured and visciously murdered for you.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, (Colossians 1:24)

I think you are confusing masochism with Christian suffering.

-Tim-

Tim, that is the point. Many people do. That may be all Luvtosew is pointing out, rather honestly, I think. That’s all I’m pointing out.

The great overwhelming majority of people have all they can do not to swear at people in traffic, swipe ball point pens from cashiers, print off coupons on the company printer on company time, and all that kind of stuff. Fixing that stuff, getting to Church at least EVERY week, learning some scripture, and the normal works of mercy are what almost all Catholics should be working on rather than this whips and chains nonsense.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Our good Irish Sisters of Charity used to tell us about the men in Ireland, drinking their morning tea not only black, but cold, during Lent. Sounds miserable to me. Oh, and they took their bread dry and no butter, either.

A German friend of mine told me that in the way back when days German monks used to substitute beer for bread during Lent. The thinking was that fasting precluded solids but not liquids. And since they couldn’t trust the water and were already brewing beer…

There’s a German brew called Fastenbier (“Lenten beer”), and I’ve always wondered its backstory in relation to what my friend said. If you’ve ever had it it’s delicious, but it is quite like chewing your way through a loaf of dark bread. And any more than two glasses will make you see double, I guess to take the edge off of Lenten sacrifices.

But I digress.

Luna

 

[iloveangels]

God himself became man so that he could be tortured and visciously murdered for you.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, (Colossians 1:24)

I think you are confusing masochism with Christian suffering.

-Tim-

Christian suffering at its finest is almost always when you look in the mirror and see that you need basic boring not very dramatic work, and even harder – that it’s not the kind of work that’s likely to bring you much consolation.

The best penances can be the kind that no one notices but that make you a better Christian. They’re also the kind that don’t result in any sort of dominant feeling of mastery, control or self-satisfaction. This is almost always the case.

 

[Bookcat]

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

 

[TrueLight]

Christian suffering at its finest is almost always when you look in the mirror and see that you need basic boring not very dramatic work, and even harder – that it’s not the kind of work that’s likely to bring you much consolation.

The best penances can be the kind that no one notices but that make you a better Christian. They’re also the kind that don’t result in any sort of dominant feeling of mastery, control or self-satisfaction. This is almost always the case.

The sort of mortification we are discussing is not for everyone, and should only be carried out under the prudent guidance and approval of a good spiritual director.

But that doesn’t mean there is something wrong with it.

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

Who knew that giving up a cup of coffee is almost universally met with fear!

I can’t go without mine, either. But, I probably will give up the milk (already gave up the sugar) for Lent. Maybe I will switch to hot tea, which would be even a worse punishment!

I can’t equate it to using the “discipline” or sleeping on the cold floor, because many folks go their whole lives drinking black coffee and hot tea, and don’t consider it a penance at all.

My pal gives up beer each Lent, but I don’t do that, since I can only have a half-pint once a week, and I usually skip that, so it wouldn’t be much of a penance to skip it. He, on the other hand has a pint a night when he gets home from work.

So, to each their own.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

oooooh noooooo not Lent! I can’t get through all the RCIA stuff w/o caffeine, let alone Holy Saturday and the Vigil.

You can do what my mormon friends do. Since they don’t drink coffee or tea because it’s apparently a sin, they load up on energy drinks instead.

Last year I gave up meat. I too contemplated coffee, but realized no one would want to live with me.

 

[iloveangels]

The sort of mortification we are discussing is not for everyone, and should only be carried out under the prudent guidance and approval of a good spiritual director.

But that doesn’t mean there is something wrong with it.

In the wrong hands, which is almost all hands, there is something wrong with it. That is the point of what I’m telling you. Experimenting around with such things can land a person in a psychiatrist’s chair. When it’s used by most people, it’s almost always used as a means of “stress conversion” in order to get relief from feelings of religious stress or guilt. This is the same exact thing that motivates a mentally-ill teenager to cut themselves for relief from their negative feelings. That’s a psychological symptom–and the dependence on it can escalate.

One of the problems here is that many people don’t understand either spiritual theology OR abnormal psychology, and some people are willing to “bless” things off that are seriously abnormal just because they are “religious.”

 

[iloveangels]

Light fasting and abstinence, and conversion of everyday behavior are much more appropriate for most people. Many people who consider all kinds of wacky penances are doing it to avoid the prospect of simply converting their lives and behaving in a solidly Christian fashion towards others. It’s often a pride thing.

Religious reading is appropriate, prayer is appropriate, as is going to confession and going to Mass more often.

Anything that modifies the body or draws blood is abnormal and most probably pathological for just about anyone you or I will ever know, I don’t care how “religious” the claims for it are.