Once again, we are not Sola Scriptura protestants. The scriptures are but a part (an integeral part) of the tradition of the Church.
O.K. let’s hear it. Part from Scripture and part from an encyclical or general Church document encouraging self-mortification. Do you have the explanation, or blindly defending?
Yes, the Scriptures are integrated. Can you show me self-mortification from the New or Old Testament as something God wants us to do to become holy?
Yes but one could say that ignorance of the saints - those whom God himself has indicated are in heaven and in his favour by granting intercessions and performing miracles on their behalf - is also ignorance of Christ.
That would cause me to question the validity of the claims.
Is that what the Church teaches?
How about 1 Corinthians 9:27: ‘I discipline my body, and bring it under submission’.
I appreciate your offering that verse, and would ask that it be considered in light of 1 Cor 6:15-20 “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”
I too have a sneaking suspicion that young Matt yonder is either not Catholic or not one who’s had an enormous amount of eduction in the Faith.
I did re-edit the post to explain that other translations of the word ‘discipline’ in that verse include beat, buffet, hit … in other words not simple self-denial but actual physical punishment.
Why, because I ask for someone with an enormous amount of education in the Faith to give a reasonable defense of self-inflicted pain? To give an example of where the practice is taught in Scripture or where Jesus modeled the practice for us? I’m just asking for an explanation of the practice. Listing who practiced it, is not the same as an explanation or a defense.
If it is useful, why not practice? Why not utilize all the proper aids to holiness?
As I said, properly used. This means it’s not for everyone. Just like all food is proper to nourish the body, but that doesn’t mean you can or should eat everything in sight.
The means is important as well, and the end should not be used to justify an imprudent means. I can see fasting, prayer, almsgiving, and other means that demonstrate humility, patience, self-control. Where I draw the line is self-inflicting pain such as throwing one’s self on a rose bush if the chance of serious flesh wounds occuring were high, or beating oneself painfully and causing significant damage to one’s body with the thought that the action in itself somehow forms an individual to be holier. If I saw someone throw themselves on a rose bush because they wanted to avoid an impure thought, I would have serious concerns about that person. Seems like there are more humble and quiet ways to avoid or halt an impure thought.Like St. Josemaria would say, “Esto vir! Be a man!”
What makes people do this? Love for God. I think the end justifies the means here. It is also very helpful to discipline, as any marine can tell you
Yes, temperance is good with food. Not too much and not too little. Too much is selfish, too little may not be wise. And we should avoid eating in ways that cause others to stumble. Similarly with corporal mortification. Fasting and prayers and alsmgiving, when performed with prudence, justice, perseverance, and temperance is spiritually healthy. Throwing oneself on a rose bush does not seem within those virtues. Seems excessive and unwise, maybe even prideful?
Pheonix
I feel asleep while saying the rosary last night, so will offer up tonight's rosary for you. Good intention, mind was tired.To be sure there are, but they aren’t effective for all people or all thoughts either. And St Francis, for example, was so humble that he considered himself unworthy to be a priest and handle the Eucharist, and refused to become one.