corporal punishment

[JurisPrudens]

That question can arise in matters other than physical abuse. How can children be expected to judge?

These days, there is a great deal more emphasis conveyed to children about their “personal rights” than there is about their obligation to respect their parents’ authority. Some children appear to have formed a view - or been fed the view - that any form of corporal punishment is an abuse of some kind.

I remember meeting Russian expats living in the U.S., who were complaining: “oh, America is the country where children sue their own parents!”

 

[angell1]

That question can arise in matters other than physical abuse. How can children be expected to judge?

These days, there is a great deal more emphasis conveyed to children about their “personal rights” than there is about their obligation to respect their parents’ authority. Some children appear to have formed a view - or been fed the view - that any form of corporal punishment is an abuse of some kind.

yes, it can certainly be in other forms other than physical.

generally, children cannot judge, so they just take it.

and I’m not saying a quick spank is always physical abuse. but being hit across the face and called names and screamed at is probably a bit closer

 

[angell1]

As I said back in the day,

ICXC NIKA

notice in my examples of my first post, I’m not really talking about spanking.

there are more severe forms than a quick pat on the bottom

 

[styrgwillidar]

The child actually chooses their punishment/form of discipline.

Because the parent uses the method that works with that child, and children are different as my mother who raised 6 kids informed me when I said I would never, ever spank my child.

Which came back to haunt me when I was blessed with a defiant, stubborn, willful child. A child who never acknowledged because she never truly believed that her parents should have any authority over her. Asking nicely, rewards, additional responsibilities, time-outs, loss of privileges had no effect at all.

Had to laugh when I read a study that indicated — gasp!!— children who received physical discipline were more likely to be defiant. No kidding? Really? You know, non-defiant kids actually accept the idea their parent have legitimate authority, are usually obedient and often respond to just their parent being displeased. Why would you spank a kid that’s obedient?

Anyway, my thoughts on corporal punishment.

• The goal of any system of discipline is proper behavior, moral formation, acknowledgment of authority and compliance with the rules.

• Used for specific red-line infractions and the child should never be surprised by it. I.E. they must know beforehand that the consequences of that action will result in corporal punishment.
• First you ask them to do what is required, then you tell them, then you raise your voice for emphasis, then you warn them the corporal punishment is coming. (Now, my kid knew the drill and would scream at me right up to the countdown before going to do what was required…)
• Consistency. I agree with the poster who said, you must be consistent. The rules must be clear, the consequences clear, and discipline applied every time. Otherwise you have a confused child.
• If corporal punishment is successful in modifying their behavior/obtaining their obedience to the rules you should only have to apply it a couple of times. It is the threat of it as the consequence in obtaining their cooperation that is the aim. The goal isn’t hitting your kid, the goal is their compliance/cooperation with the rules. If they don’t respond to corporal punishment, you as the parent need to find another method. Once my child was a teenager, withdrawal of electronics/internet access/computer time/phone privileges elicited her cooperation- the threat of corporal punishment wasn’t necessary.

My other kids were far more typical in wanting mom/dad’s approval, not defiant at all and responded to time-outs etc.

BTW: My defiant child got through 4 yrs of college and a 2 yr teaching credential program debt free and now teaches High School.

 

[andrewstx]

Do I really need to explain that?

Leaving a mark (bruise, cut, 1st degree burn marks, an imprint of the belt or hand) is a clear sign that the corporal punishment is too hard.

If you disagree with corporal punishment, that’s your perogrative. I for one do not think its abuse on its own merit, and can be an affective tool in rearing children when done properly & with love.

When I was in 7th grade, they were still using the paddle as a punishment. Kids who got in trouble had a choice: all day, in school suspension (with only peanut butter & jelly for lunch) or a paddle for each day of in-school suspension.

The paddle even had holes drilled into it to make it move through the air faster.

Keep in mind, this was PUBLIC SCHOOL and it was the 1989/1990 school year.

NOTE: we do not spank my kids because my wife is against it. Instead my wife yells like a crazy person. I personally think yelling is far worse and more damaging than a quick pat on the bottom.

I learnt in Psch 101 that positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative.

 

[andrewstx]

I was NEVER spanked in texas, years ago by my stepdad. He would pull my shirt up and pants down and beat me from shoulders to knees with a heavy belt that was used for nothing but beating. I would have bruises in the same places.

I had to undress and dress for gym class looking like that and coach could not miss seeing me. He never said a word to any one about it.

In texas children were seen as property, chattels.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I learnt in Psch 101 that positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative.

I experienced negative reinforcement and I believe in a moderate mix of both.

 

[CRATUS]

I am not sure if I agree with corporal punishment. I think it is fine for children but not teenagers. I think smacks to the face are just mean. It is difficult to define when corporal punishment becomes abuse. Bleeding? Bruises? Scrapes? Cuts? Obviously if a weapon is used, that is crossing a line.

 

[CRATUS]

I know the church does not necessarily forbid it. but are there some guidelines?

I’ve noticed in different cultures, the idea of corporal punishment takes on different forms.
for some, slapping children across the face is normal, other use brooms, belts, ETC… hitting kids that make mistakes in piano lessons is also normal or pushing them over on the ground and kicking them. I also had a professor once who taught in south Africa say that he had to learn to hit kids with a wooden ruler when he was over there because everyone expected that

I realize that this sort of thing used to be prevalent in western culture as well. priests and nuns would administer punishments in schools and such

of course, I know children are not supposed to be abused. but when is the line crossed in to abuse. most of the parents I described above do not believe it is abuse and that the child “deserves” that kind of punishment

I’m looking for a catholic perspective please

I think punching someone in the face or the gut is a form of abuse to me. Throwing shoes at children.

 

[GEddie]

I am not sure if I agree with corporal punishment. I think it is fine for children but not teenagers. I think smacks to the face are just mean. It is difficult to define when corporal punishment becomes abuse. Bleeding? Bruises? Scrapes? Cuts? Obviously if a weapon is used, that is crossing a line.

It’s not obvious to me. One can be just as mean using one’s hand as with a belt or paddle.

A college friend once said to me, “she never got spanked, she got beat.” And she came out OK. Still, obviously, the parental sector never could agree on how much was too much, so now the civil state has answered the question for us. Full stop.

ICXC NIKA

 

[styrgwillidar]

I experienced negative reinforcement and I believe in a moderate mix of both.

I prefer positive reinforcement, increases in privileges, child buy-in to the rules based on the reasons behind them when they’re old enough to understand.

Unfortunately, some kids do not respond to any of that. Ultimately the parent ends up needing to use what the child responds to… negative reinforcement/punishment and ultimately corporal punishment are lowest on my preference list.

 

[phil19034]

I learnt in Psch 101 that positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative.

No one argues that. I agree 100%. However, sometimes that’s not possible. That’s why we have jails and why hell exsists.

Some children (like some adults) respond better to negative as than positive.

My point is that many people want to vilify spankings, however, fail to offer answers to kids who don’t respond to positive reinforcement when it comes to behavior modification.

How many people avoid certain sins or go to Mass primarly because they are afraid of going to hell? Some people are motivated to do the right thing of fear of consequences.

Their is no blanket solution. For some kids, spanking is not nessary and/or not effective. It really all depends on the child. Parents should be trusted to do what’s best for their child, unless their is obvious signs of abuse. But in today’s society, the progressives don’t trust parents to properly raise their own children.

God Bless

 

[Little_Sheep]

Please do not strike your children.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Please do not strike your children.

Because why?

 

[o_mlly]

I know the church does not necessarily forbid it. but are there some guidelines?

I’ve noticed in different cultures, the idea of corporal punishment takes on different forms.
for some, slapping children across the face is normal, other use brooms, belts, ETC… hitting kids that make mistakes in piano lessons is also normal or pushing them over on the ground and kicking them. I also had a professor once who taught in south Africa say that he had to learn to hit kids with a wooden ruler when he was over there because everyone expected that

I realize that this sort of thing used to be prevalent in western culture as well. priests and nuns would administer punishments in schools and such

of course, I know children are not supposed to be abused. but when is the line crossed in to abuse. most of the parents I described above do not believe it is abuse and that the child “deserves” that kind of punishment

I’m looking for a catholic perspective please

From the CCC:
*223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones."31 Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:

He who loves his son will not spare the rod. . . . He who disciplines his son will profit by him.32

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.33 *

 

[Little_Sheep]

Because why?

For the same reason you would not strike an adult. If you strike an adult, it is assault and you could face legal consequences. Why is that different for a child? At least an adult is evenly yoked with another adult when it comes to raising arms. A child is absolutely vulnerable against the hand (hairbrush, belt, switch…) of a grown person.

Grown people only strike children because we can (and because children can be maddening - bringing out the most base feelings of frustration and powerlessness in us). Striking a child teaches the child nothing of good or of God.

I say this all as an older parent who spanked more than once. I have forgiven myself and my children have forgiven me, but If I could have a do-over, I would take it!

My opinion only and I hope it doesn’t sound sanctimonious. I share it more from a lived and learned perspective.

 

[Little_Sheep]

From the CCC:
*223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones."31 Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:

He who loves his son will not spare the rod. . . . He who disciplines his son will profit by him.32

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.33 *

The rod referred to here is the shepherd’s staff. I am a long-time Catechist in my church, trained and practicing in Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, a religious formation program for children developed by Catholics.

The shepherd uses his staff to guide and lead his sheep, to round up his sheep and capture their attention, to help his sheep keep the path and to protect/defend his sheep from outsiders who would do them harm. Never in a million years would a shepherd use his staff to strike his sheep. Jesus is the Good Shepherd who knows His sheep by name.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

For the same reason you would not strike an adult. If you strike an adult, it is assault and you could face legal consequences. Why is that different for a child? At least an adult is evenly yoked with another adult when it comes to raising arms. A child is absolutely vulnerable against the hand (hairbrush, belt, switch…) of a grown person.

Grown people only strike children because we can (and because children can be maddening - bringing out the most base feelings of frustration and powerlessness in us). Striking a child teaches the child nothing of good or of God.

I say this all as an older parent who spanked more than once. I have forgiven myself and my children have forgiven me, but If I could have a do-over, I would take it!

My opinion only and I hope it doesn’t sound sanctimonious. I share it more from a lived and learned perspective.

I have never spanked out of frustration. It is one tool out of many that can be effective with younger children who cannot rationalize. It also has been a staple of parenting since the dawn of time. The pope finds it not only acceptable but encourages it.

 

[Rau]

For the same reason you would not strike an adult. If you strike an adult, it is assault and you could face legal consequences. Why is that different for a child?

Perhaps some jurisdictions hold corporal punishment of a child to be unlawful. But in principle, this particular reason is nonsense. Let me ask an analogous question - Is confining one’s child to the home an unlawful detention? Clearly, it’s not.

 

[Rau]

The rod referred to here is the shepherd’s staff.

It does not follow that the way a Shepherd might use the “rod” translates precisely to how we may direct, guide and discipline children. I agree the “rod” is broader than an instrument for inflicting pain. Perhaps it is an exemplar for discipline, though this does not mean it is preferred or appropriate in every circumstance. Certainly there is nothing in the term to imply “spanking” or similar is wrong.

Proverbs 23:13

New International Version
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.

New Living Translation
Don’t fail to discipline your children. They won’t die if you spank them.

English Standard Version
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.

New American Standard Bible
Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.

See also Sirach 30:1-2.