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MartinJordan
Guest
Then why bring up Gnostics and Judaizers? I’m not seeing why have a problem understanding.
MJ
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MJ
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SalamKhan
Guest
Because they claimed to receive their teachings from the disciples. I literally addressed your requests for Islamic references. They don’t need to be mentioned in Islamic references to know they existed, and I even explained why. It’s you who apparently has trouble understanding. Even so, if I were to give you Islamic references, would you actually take that as concrete proof that the Catholic don’t have an authentic claim to have received their teachings from the disciples? No, so again you don’t know what you’re talking about, and your requests are irrelevant.
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MartinJordan
Guest
SK, you said "and although they are falsely attributed to the disciples of Isa ibn Maryam (A), " So, how are they falsely attributed? Since false how are they false?
Don’t worry about me. Just give those references.
MJ
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KathleenGee
Guest
SalamKhan,
have been too busy to contribute to this thread.
But, have you bothered to get hold of a Catholic Catechism that defines our beliefs that we hold true for 2,000 years, plus references and Councils that clarified or corrected our beliefs?
Also, going back, Christianity is not a philosophical belief. It is not a belief of a book.
Christianity is the religion of Life and goodness and common humanity and service.
Islam as it stated in the quote from the Qur’an I provided you, that when in doubt of Islam, you need to return to the Bible.
And regarding which translation is most accurate, it is the Septuagint. NewAdvent provides you all the information you need, as well as later disputes that came up and were rectified.
There were 70 rabbis called to Egypt by Emperor Ptolemy 200 years before Christ, who were kept separate and asked to compose the books of Scripture. When they returned, all their works were displayed and each rabbi provided the same books, pages, paragraphs, and words – all the same as the other rabbis…and we call this a confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
The Septuagint foresaw the coming of the Messiah as we know Him. And He is still coming to many people around the world, especially Africa and the Middle East.
Disputes and contradictions always follow God’s revelations.
The final revelation of God is Jesus Christ.
God does not call us to chaos or confusion or emnity with each other.
God is Life and He shares His life with us through His Son and His creation.
God created this world GOOD. Nothing pleases God more than when we love our neighbor as brethren.
Christ and His apostles were Jews. The first Church of Jerusalem was Jewish. The believers in Rome who met in private homes upon SS Peter and Paul’s arrival were Jewish. St. Paul was the evangelist to the Gentiles. Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome. The other apostles except John were martyred in their calling to found churches.
Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor, Northern Africa were once teeming Christian populations. Pakistan was Buddhist. Smyrna was the last of the remaining churches in Asia Minor that survived up to 1922. Why did most of them renounce Christianity??
You can take the debate of God out into philosophy.
We understand God in the context of Who He is among us and the world.
Reducing the defense of one’s belief to philosophical debate and pondering is a way to avoid obvious contradictions to God’s revelation.
have been too busy to contribute to this thread.
But, have you bothered to get hold of a Catholic Catechism that defines our beliefs that we hold true for 2,000 years, plus references and Councils that clarified or corrected our beliefs?
Also, going back, Christianity is not a philosophical belief. It is not a belief of a book.
Christianity is the religion of Life and goodness and common humanity and service.
Islam as it stated in the quote from the Qur’an I provided you, that when in doubt of Islam, you need to return to the Bible.
And regarding which translation is most accurate, it is the Septuagint. NewAdvent provides you all the information you need, as well as later disputes that came up and were rectified.
There were 70 rabbis called to Egypt by Emperor Ptolemy 200 years before Christ, who were kept separate and asked to compose the books of Scripture. When they returned, all their works were displayed and each rabbi provided the same books, pages, paragraphs, and words – all the same as the other rabbis…and we call this a confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
The Septuagint foresaw the coming of the Messiah as we know Him. And He is still coming to many people around the world, especially Africa and the Middle East.
Disputes and contradictions always follow God’s revelations.
The final revelation of God is Jesus Christ.
God does not call us to chaos or confusion or emnity with each other.
God is Life and He shares His life with us through His Son and His creation.
God created this world GOOD. Nothing pleases God more than when we love our neighbor as brethren.
Christ and His apostles were Jews. The first Church of Jerusalem was Jewish. The believers in Rome who met in private homes upon SS Peter and Paul’s arrival were Jewish. St. Paul was the evangelist to the Gentiles. Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome. The other apostles except John were martyred in their calling to found churches.
Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor, Northern Africa were once teeming Christian populations. Pakistan was Buddhist. Smyrna was the last of the remaining churches in Asia Minor that survived up to 1922. Why did most of them renounce Christianity??
You can take the debate of God out into philosophy.
We understand God in the context of Who He is among us and the world.
Reducing the defense of one’s belief to philosophical debate and pondering is a way to avoid obvious contradictions to God’s revelation.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I will respond to some of your points but the first major point I would respond to is that within the first three hundred years of Christendom there was mostly a unified theological division which represents itself in what is called the proto orthodoxy of the ante Nicenes. Latter theological divisions between Coptics, Orthodox and Catholics not withstanding I think you over emphasise the importance in regards to truth. These schisms do not discredit Christianity any more than Islamic schisms discredit Islam. What discredits Islam to my mind is that it simply cannot account for the life of Jesus or his Apostles after him without inferring God lost control of his people.
When discussing the wider Christian canon (I mean both bible and tradition) there are some points I might make. Do you accept the standard authorship of the Pauline Epistles, or that at least seven were by Saint Paul as mostly everyone accepts? What of the four Gospels? We should go on then and ask whether or not you accept that a man called Ignatius wrote his seven epistles, or Clement’s epistle or all of ante Nicene literature in general. These writings form the basis of most Christian expression, the bible first and the Church’s interpretation and use of it, so would you be willing to accept most of the works ascribed to the early Church fathers are by the people who have been purported to write them?
Also as a Muslim I feel you have to be held to what the quran says regarding the gospels. It says that the people of the gospel should have recourse to the gospel to confirm what Muhammad was saying. Now this makes no sense if there was nothing during the time of Muhammad that Christians could go to so clearly the Quran has a text or texts in mind when it tells us Christians do something. Now the four gospels by the time of Muhammad were universally accepted throughout all church traditions, even those in schism, Orthodox/Catholic, Coptic/Ethiopian and Assyrian churches. What is the quran telling us people of the Gospel to look to confirm Muhammad? It cannot be pointing to a text which no longer exists or else it is demanding an impossible task of us, nor do I think it is pointing to an obscure text which no longer exists. My conclusion is that it is pointing to the Christian gospels which is a problem for Muslims since our gospels contradict your Quran on several important points.
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MartinJordan
Guest
I just found this from 2008:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4352844&postcount=8
“Perhaps some “gnostic tales” are actually correct. Perhaps the gnostic literature recorded true stories which were omitted by other writers. And that God Almighty chose to confirm those stories in the Qur’an even though the “Church” opted to ignore them?”
Proof needed here too. “Maybe” doesn’t quite do justice.
MJ
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KathleenGee
Guest
The sacred Books of Scripture were all affirmed for public revelation by 100 AD. There was some concern if St. John had written the Gospel but then verified, and it took the Church 200 years to affirm that St. Paul was indeed the author of the Book of Hebrews.
There are a number of ‘hidden gospels’ that have come out in recent years that are actually forgeries. There were many other books that were all categorically dismissed.
As we understand it, Muhammed drew on the faith and practices of Jews and Catholics, and with the former in mind, I think of the ancient Desert Fathers who had times of prayer throughout the day.
Ancient Christians had their arms stretched out as a cross and in certain churches within the privacy of their homes, they would then pray the Our Father at 9 am, then noon, and then at 5 pm.
Thanks, Ignatian and Michael!
There are a number of ‘hidden gospels’ that have come out in recent years that are actually forgeries. There were many other books that were all categorically dismissed.
As we understand it, Muhammed drew on the faith and practices of Jews and Catholics, and with the former in mind, I think of the ancient Desert Fathers who had times of prayer throughout the day.
Ancient Christians had their arms stretched out as a cross and in certain churches within the privacy of their homes, they would then pray the Our Father at 9 am, then noon, and then at 5 pm.
Thanks, Ignatian and Michael!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Apostolic Catholic Church has the most documentation of any institution or belief in the entire world going back to the times of the apostles as well as archaeological and historical/social conditions of those times.
SK, you want to go back to philosophical reasoning.
We to go Cause and effect, God the Cause.
The effects of God vs the effects of Allah are very different and contradictory.
SK, you want to go back to philosophical reasoning.
We to go Cause and effect, God the Cause.
The effects of God vs the effects of Allah are very different and contradictory.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
We have the canons and declarations of the Councils. There are 6-7 that are accepted as authoritative by both East and West. In the East, we have a collection of these canons known in English as “The Rudder”. I have not read it.
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ffg
Guest
To close our most recent discussion about creating good and evil as you ended here with a good place to point out the unreconciled differences again.
I guess to confirm the differences, I think you’ve mentioned, but just to confirm again - to you good and evil are equal in power?
To me - As God is Good and what He does is always good (as who am I to rate or question His actions?), evil can never equal good or God.
Thus evil is less than good and God.
You mentioned something earlier that I didn’t touch on, but perhaps we can expand a bit. Do you have writing or tradition for the ‘creation’ of paradise?
What if Paradise was simply being wrapped lovingly in the arms of the uncreated God?
Any info here as to your knowledge that paradise is created would be wonderful. Curious of the source.
Take care,
S
SalamKhan
Guest
Like what, and have they ever been published?
No, we do not consider good and evil to be equal; nonetheless they are both from Allah.
The Prophet (S) said, “When Allah created Paradise and Hell, He sent Jibril to Paradise and said, ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared for its people therein. Then he went back to Him and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one will hear of it but he will enter it.’ Then He commanded that it should be surrounded with difficult things. Then He said, ‘Go back and look at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ He went back and saw that it was surrounded with difficult things. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will enter it.’ Allah said, ‘Go and look at Hell and see what I have prepared for its people therein.’ [He saw it] with parts of it consuming other parts. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ So Allah commanded that it should be surrounded with desires. Then he said, ‘Go back to it.’ So he went back, then he said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will be saved from it and that all will enter it.’”
Sunan al-Tirmidhi (2560), Al-Tirmidhi said: this is a Hasan Sahih Hadith. Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath: its isnad (chain) is qawiy (strong).
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
I’m not following you. Earlier, we both seemed to agree that evil is the deprivation of a good. So there is no “evil” to “create.” Evil is the absence of good. If we believe that God allows this deprivation to occur for the greater good, how is that a form of dualism?
Peace,
Robert
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SalamKhan
Guest
I agreed with your statement that evil is the absence of good, because it is contrary to the view that good and evil are on complete opposition to each other, which you also seem to believe.
Allah is the creator of actions, that is why we say He is the creator of good and evil. Good and evil are related to actions. I think the easiest way to explain this to those who may be familiar with western philosophy:
You believe in intellectualism.
We believe in voluntarism.
And Allah knows best.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Hope SK answers especially (if you don’t mind), the bolded points.
After this, my Gnostics and Judaizers question too.
MJ
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SalamKhan
Guest
You are incorrect. That does not prove that the Qur’an refers to any of the four canonical Gospels of the so called catholic and apostolic churches. The word used for Christians in the Qur’an is ‘Nasara’, which actually translates to ‘Nazarene’. In Arabia there were Hebrew Christians, whom you would refer to as ‘Judaizers’. They are generally thought to have held a Hebrew variant of the Gospel of Matthew, and perhaps others. It is interesting to note, that the Gospel of Matthew Christians possess today is not based on the original written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but based on a Greek translation by an unknown translator. It is said in the Hadith:
“Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.”- Sahih al-Bukhari Book 1, Hadith 3
You are also incorrect for implying that the only churches were the ones who claimed to be catholic and apostolic. Al-Nashi al-Akbar, writing in the 9th century lists the following groups (summarised list) in his Al-Radd ala al-Nasara min Fi al-Maqalat:
al-Salihiyya—the Apostolics
al-Malaikiyya—the Angelics
al-Niqalusiyya—the Nicolaitans
al-Adamiyya—the Adamites
al-Qatharuniyya—the Cathars
al-Nafsaniyya—the Spiritualists
al-Hayyiyya—the Ophites
al-Diqtaniyya—the Hieracites
al-Masalliyyaniyya—the Mesallians, two sub-groups
al-Walasiyya—the Valesians
al-Malkiyya—the Melkites, three groups:
first group
second group, al-Qulurusiyya—the Qulurusites
third group, al-Fadiyya or Salhiyya—the Redeemed or Pious
al-Ishaqiyya—the Isaacites
al-Yamani, an individual
al-Yaqubiyya—the Jacobites
al-Luliyaniyya—the Julianists
al-Maruniyya—the Maronites
al-Afulnaristiyya—the Apollinarians
al-Awtakhiyya—the Eutychians
al-Walintiyya—the Valentinians
al-Aryusiyya—the Arians
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MartinJordan
Guest
Where are you getting this? Please give the Islamic references. We’ve already been through the usual “the Gospel of Matthew is based on Greek…” long time ago here at CAF. Doesn’t really tell us much SK. But surely make us continue our prayers to St. Matthew all the more!
So this is not in the Quran but told later? When were the Hadiths first compiled?
This all very interesting. But I can get from Wiki easily. That said our Church Fathers have dealt with all of this long before the 9th Century.
Did Al-Nashi al-Akbar mention the Councils for example that dealt with Apollinarism for example?
Anyway, your list above comes from the book by David Richard Thomas.
You need to do better for better convincing.
MJ
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SalamKhan
Guest
You obviously have no clue what you’re talking about. When I said the Qur’an uses the word ‘Nasara’, is the Qur’an not an Islamic source? Also, when I cite Hadith, an Islamic source, your problem is that it’s not the Qur’an? Read this entire thread from the beginning if you want to know about Hadith. That last paragraph of yours is irrelevant to what I posted.
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MartinJordan
Guest
That’s fine but there were several Nazarenes at various years before 600 A.D.
But if you go back to the 4th century, we have this for example:
Why do I speak of the Ebionites, who make pretensions to the name of Christian? In our own day there exists a sect among the Jews throughout all the synagogues of the East, which is called the sect of the Minei, and is even now condemned by the Pharisees. The adherents to this sect are known commonly as Nazarenes; they believe in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary; **and they say that He who suffered under Pontius Pilate and rose again, is the same as the one in whom we believe. But while they desire to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other. **
Source : newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm
Regardless, Itwin answered you. Thus you will not get what you are looking for here by using the Hadith.
But Is it from the book I mentioned? Be frank please.
MJ
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SalamKhan
Guest
It’s from his book Christian Doctrines in Islamic Theology. So?
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MartinJordan
Guest
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