Not needed, as I’ve explained before. I don’t know if you keep asking because I keep ignoring you, so now I’ll actually let you know:Islamic reference from an Muslim cleric not available?
MJ
Then it’s better you read this from the book you’ve picked up-Not needed, as I’ve explained before. I don’t know if you keep asking because I keep ignoring you, so now I’ll actually let you know:
Any more of these juvenile requests will be ignored, as they are irrelevant and useless to the debate.
[Sunan al-Tirmidhi (2560), Al-Tirmidhi said: this is a Hasan Sahih Hadith. Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath: its isnad (chain) is qawiy (strong).So Allah commanded that it should be surrounded with desires. Then he said, ‘Go back to it.’ So he went back, then he said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will be saved from it and that all will enter it.’”
Now this is fascinating. I believe it’s explanations like the one you’ve given here are evidence that Muhammad most certainly came up with the Qur’an and not Allah.You are incorrect. That does not prove that the Qur’an refers to any of the four canonical Gospels of the so called catholic and apostolic churches. The word used for Christians in the Qur’an is ‘Nasara’, which actually translates to ‘Nazarene’. In Arabia there were Hebrew Christians, whom you would refer to as ‘Judaizers’. They are generally thought to have held a Hebrew variant of the Gospel of Matthew, and perhaps others. It is interesting to note, that the Gospel of Matthew Christians possess today is not based on the original written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but based on a Greek translation by an unknown translator. It is said in the Hadith:
“Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.”- Sahih al-Bukhari Book 1, Hadith 3
Kathleen, I asked you a question about your claim that the Vatican possesses many documents which go all the way back to the apostles, could you please answer it?SK, you trust sources that are in competition with our faith that came after, as well as draw on events, but with a twist that is outside the event???
No, the Hadith is saying that the path to Paradise is difficult whereas the path to Hell is easy. Disobedience to Allah comes from our desires, such as lust, greed, envy, etc. whereas obedience comes from the submission of our wills to Allah.Can you clarify this for me please?
Allah here is saying that he filled hell with desires so that more people would go there. Allah wants people to go to hell according to Islam? Not arguing, just clarifying on this point.
Did you come to this thread just to start another off topic discussion?Now this is fascinating. I believe it’s explanations like the one you’ve given here are evidence that Muhammad most certainly came up with the Qur’an and not Allah.
The beginning Surah Rum (Chapter of Byzantium) contains a prophecy in which the Byzantines would retake Jerusalem from the Persians. Besides, what good would it have done the Christians in Arabia if Allah specifically addressed those outside of Arabia whom they already saw as heretics and not them?Allah revealed many passages of Scripture for many obscure groups, instead of the logical thing an omnipotent, all knowing, omnipresent God would do; which is addressing the main Orthodox beliefs that existed at that time and long afterwards.
Uzair doesn’t necessarily refer to Ezra. Most people identify Uzair with Ezra due to name similarity. There were Rabbinic Jews who believed there are two powers in Heaven, or lesser YHWH. You may say this was an obscure belief, but it was significant enough for Jacob Qirqisani, the Karaite from the 10th century to write about as criticism of Rabbinic Judaism.It’s so clear that the common belief among all Christians is that Jesus is the Son of God. But Muhammad decided to conflate that with some Jewish belief that Ezra is the Son of God. How in the world did Allah make such an error?
As I’ve pointed out to someone else who attempted to use this as proof text; you don’t understand this verse. Read the verses prior to it.Allah says to “Go and ask the Christians about whether or not what I say is true”.
Allah may not have addressed the larger churches directly, but nonetheless their errors are still denounced in the Qur’an, such as the Trinity.Yet according to you it’s some obscure group of Christians that wasn’t the main Orthodoxy, nor are they now. Allah really needs to look at the bigger picture of his universe imo.
I did read it, All research by the Anglican scholar. He’s been unbiased so I’ve no problem at all. But you’ve missed the motives behind the 9th and 10th century Islamic scholars. I’ve even bolded some of it. Read again the bolded please.Don’t know what your point is. I’ve read the entire book. You should too, especially the texts of the writings against Christianity in it.
Thanks for the reply.Like what, and have they ever been published?
No, we do not consider good and evil to be equal; nonetheless they are both from Allah.
The Prophet (S) said, “When Allah created Paradise and Hell, He sent Jibril to Paradise and said, ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared for its people therein. Then he went back to Him and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one will hear of it but he will enter it.’ Then He commanded that it should be surrounded with difficult things. Then He said, ‘Go back and look at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ He went back and saw that it was surrounded with difficult things. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will enter it.’ Allah said, ‘Go and look at Hell and see what I have prepared for its people therein.’ [He saw it] with parts of it consuming other parts. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ So Allah commanded that it should be surrounded with desires. Then he said, ‘Go back to it.’ So he went back, then he said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will be saved from it and that all will enter it.’”
[Sunan al-Tirmidhi (2560), Al-Tirmidhi said: this is a Hasan Sahih Hadith. Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath: its isnad (chain) is qawiy (strong).
*The Prophet (S) said, “**When Allah created Paradise and Hell***, He sent Jibril to Paradise and said, ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared for its people therein.
*Then he went back to Him and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one will hear of it but he will enter it.’ **Then He commanded that it should be surrounded with difficult things. Then He said, ‘Go back and look at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ He went back and saw that it was surrounded with difficult things.
He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will enter it.’ **Allah said, ‘Go and look at Hell and see what I have prepared for its people therein.’ [He saw it] with parts of it consuming other parts.
He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ *
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So our 'hearing' situation this time seems to be - if you know about Hell, you won't enter it?Hell is attractive on the outside and Jibril is concerned about that.
I can buy that.
A few summarizing questions -
Can you explain Jibril? Why is the prophet not explaining what God shows directly to the prophet? (if the prophet is not Jibril)
Considering the similar passages, it seems like Paradise will creep up on clueless folks and snag them. But those that know of (strive for?) Paradise or Hell don't really have a chance to make either?
Thanks and take care,
[/quote]Jibril is the Angel Gabriel, who often intructed the Prophet (S). This event was either informed to the Prophet (S) by Jibril at the command of Allah, or was revealed to the Prophet (S) by Allah. We believe that it is ultimately through the Mercy of Allah that believers will enter Paradise, nonetheless keeping to the right path is difficult. Jibril assumed that everyone will avoid Hell if they knew of it, but then was concerned that none will avoid Hell due to it being surrounded by worldly pleasures and lower desires.Thanks for the reply.
I have some questions…
So Paradise was shown to ‘Jibril’ - Is Jibril the prophet who is ‘speaking’? Is this history or prophecy?Code:*The Prophet (S) said, “**When Allah created Paradise and Hell***, He sent Jibril to Paradise and said, ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared for its people therein. *Then he went back to Him and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one will hear of it but he will enter it.’ *
Can you explain what is meant by ‘hear of it’? Does this mean that those who ‘hear’ of Paradise won’t enter it?
So it’s tough to get into Paradise.Code:*Then He commanded that it should be surrounded with difficult things. Then He said, ‘Go back and look at what I have prepared for its people therein.’ He went back and saw that it was surrounded with difficult things. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will enter it.’ *
Does this mean that it is through man’s power that paradise is entered? Man navigating the ‘difficult things’ well?
*So Allah commanded that it should be surrounded with desires. Then he said, ‘Go back to it.’ So he went back, then he said,Code:*Allah said, ‘Go and look at Hell and see what I have prepared for its people therein.’ [He saw it] with parts of it consuming other parts. He came back and said, ‘By Your Glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So our 'hearing' situation this time seems to be - if you know about Hell, you won't enter it?
‘By Your Glory, I am afraid that no one will be saved from it and that all will enter it.’”*
Code:Hell is attractive on the outside and Jibril is concerned about that. I can buy that. A few summarizing questions - Can you explain Jibril? Why is the prophet not explaining what God shows directly to the prophet? (if the prophet is not Jibril) Considering the similar passages, it seems like Paradise will creep up on clueless folks and snag them. But those that know of (strive for?) Paradise or Hell don't really have a chance to make either? Thanks and take care,
A few problems with this idea. Evidence of Hebrew Christians who had a Gospel of matthew in Hebrew in the 7th century seems thin. Yes you have provided a hadith reference regarding the so called Christian Waraq but when was this Hadith written? According to wikipedia it was written sometime around the 800s, almost 200 hundred years after Muhammad supposedly lived. It seems difficult to substantiate the existence of this group on that basis alone.You are incorrect. That does not prove that the Qur’an refers to any of the four canonical Gospels of the so called catholic and apostolic churches. The word used for Christians in the Qur’an is ‘Nasara’, which actually translates to ‘Nazarene’. In Arabia there were Hebrew Christians, whom you would refer to as ‘Judaizers’. They are generally thought to have held a Hebrew variant of the Gospel of Matthew, and perhaps others. It is interesting to note, that the Gospel of Matthew Christians possess today is not based on the original written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but based on a Greek translation by an unknown translator. It is said in the Hadith:
“Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.”- Sahih al-Bukhari Book 1, Hadith 3
You are also incorrect for implying that the only churches were the ones who claimed to be catholic and apostolic. Al-Nashi al-Akbar, writing in the 9th century lists the following groups (summarised list) in his Al-Radd ala al-Nasara min Fi al-Maqalat:
al-Salihiyya—the Apostolics
al-Malaikiyya—the Angelics
al-Niqalusiyya—the Nicolaitans
al-Adamiyya—the Adamites
al-Qatharuniyya—the Cathars
al-Nafsaniyya—the Spiritualists
al-Hayyiyya—the Ophites
al-Diqtaniyya—the Hieracites
al-Masalliyyaniyya—the Mesallians, two sub-groups
al-Walasiyya—the Valesians
al-Malkiyya—the Melkites, three groups:
first group
second group, al-Qulurusiyya—the Qulurusites
third group, al-Fadiyya or Salhiyya—the Redeemed or Pious
al-Ishaqiyya—the Isaacites
al-Yamani, an individual
al-Yaqubiyya—the Jacobites
al-Luliyaniyya—the Julianists
al-Maruniyya—the Maronites
al-Afulnaristiyya—the Apollinarians
al-Awtakhiyya—the Eutychians
al-Walintiyya—the Valentinians
al-Aryusiyya—the Arians
If you would like to know about Hadith and why it is reliable, I suggest you read my posts from the beginning of the thread. As for the Christians of the Byzantine Empire, I have answered that question a couple of posts earlier. I don’t know what the Qur’an makes reference to as the Gospel; Allah knows best.A few problems with this idea. Evidence of Hebrew Christians who had a Gospel of matthew in Hebrew in the 7th century seems thin. Yes you have provided a hadith reference regarding the so called Christian Waraq but when was this Hadith written? According to wikipedia it was written sometime around the 800s, almost 200 hundred years after Muhammad supposedly lived. It seems difficult to substantiate the existence of this group on that basis alone.
Secondly if the Quran’s condemnations of Christians is directed towards these hebrew Christians what of in the Byzantine/Roman Empire? Why does the Quran make use of precious space to address a small fringe sect with little influence and power when there was the Christianity of the Eastern and Western Roman Empire which would permeate throughout the entire world? I would suggest that much of the Quran’s criticism against Christians only makes sense with the Orthodox Christians in mind, in regard to Worship of Jesus, veneration of Mary and etc.
As for the long list of supposed Churches, I think even you would have to dismiss most of those based on their beliefs and you would have to recognise that many did not likely exist in the time of Muhammad.
Now I would ask, do you believe the Gospel of Matthew is the true gospel the Quran makes reference of?
Does the Quran actually address us Christians here or is it only talking to a small sect which might not have even existed at the time of Muhammad?If you would like to know about Hadith and why it is reliable, I suggest you read my posts from the beginning of the thread. As for the Christians of the Byzantine Empire, I have answered that question a couple of posts earlier. I don’t know what the Qur’an makes reference to as the Gospel; Allah knows best.
Kathleen, here’s the thing. The book SK suggests already from the get go explains following:It appears then considering the incongruous remarks of Allah, one would dismiss such questionings kept for Allah alone. I admit I have a very hard time understanding the circular and gnostic position Islam holds of Christianity, Islam’s understanding of ours or its draws on our historical events comes across more as fables or folklore.
It’s like there is this huge gap between mankind and Allah, there is this great loss in truly understanding his motives and purpose, that makes me wonder why would he bother to be a creator in the first place.
Pretty hard to understand Islam, the image that human beings are his slaves for no purpose as he has no purpose in his creation, he has no meaning beyond mere existence.
As God created all things, we should be able to have common respect and tolerance because he made all of us, if for any purpose it should be peace and mutual service.
Thanks for the reply, I find this to be most interesting.Jibril is the Angel Gabriel, who often intructed the Prophet (S). This event was either informed to the Prophet (S) by Jibril at the command of Allah, or was revealed to the Prophet (S) by Allah. We believe that it is ultimately through the Mercy of Allah that believers will enter Paradise, nonetheless keeping to the right path is difficult. Jibril assumed that everyone will avoid Hell if they knew of it, but then was concerned that none will avoid Hell due to it being surrounded by worldly pleasures and lower desires.
Something that was written two hundred years later cannot be more reliable than say the Gospel which was written by eye witnesses or disciples of the eyewitnesses. And Hadith is no exception despite the claim otherwise.If you would like to know about Hadith and why it is reliable, I suggest you read my posts from the beginning of the thread. As for the Christians of the Byzantine Empire, I have answered that question a couple of posts earlier. I don’t know what the Qur’an makes reference to as the Gospel; Allah knows best.