Correct Procedure?

[paramedicgirl]

Howdy paramedicgirl,

There is a woman who arrives at Adoration every Friday just about 2:30 or so. I’d like to share with you the reverence she displays. (It’s because I’m working in the office until this office that I have been blessed to bear witness.)

She walks to the Church from her neighborhood home. She is always dressed in a dress with sequence on it or ruffles at the bottom of the skirt or with a blazer and skirt. I’ve never seen her in pants. She is an elderly woman about the age of 70 or so. She is small in stature and is quick to offer you a very genuine smile. She seldom speaks to anyone in church and brings only a simple looking rosary with her at all times.

From the moment her feet touch the grounds of the Church, she drops to her knees. (Oh, my Jesus…) She then proceeds to continue a distance of 40 yards on her knees.

She opens the heavy doors of the Church on her knees. She enters the Church on her knees. She completes all the Stations of the Cross on her knees. She sits for Adoration for an hour or so and kneels for the rest on the cement floor. She foregoes use of the kneeler. She leaves after pausing momentarily at every Station of the Cross once more. She then leaves for her home nearby—the same way she entered the Church.

Sadly, the possibility exists that someone’s first reaction to this woman’s procedure of doing things could be “over the top.”

If I could muster an ounce of her apparent humility and reverence…my stay in purgatory would surely be lessened.

Wow! She sounds like an amazingly humble and holy woman! Thanks for sharing that, Annie.

 

[rwoehmke]

To the OP, I personally think the correct procedure would be to “offer it up”. However, if the behavior was truly distracting, dangerous, or immoral (the making out example), than my first response would probably be to ask them to stop myself. I assume that any behavior that distracting has to be being done close enough to me that I could whisper. But really anything that awful, I would hope the usher would notice and handle it. If it continued for awhile (same people, same behavior) and it didn’t appear that anything was done, I would tell the priest. I wouldn’t insist on a public chastisement or to know the outcome of the discussion (or even to know that the discussion took place). Finally, it might behoove me to sit somewhere else in the congregation or attend a different Mass time.

Sister sally best advice yet. If it is really bad like immoral behavior, laying on the floor or a pew, talking on a cell phone, etc. have an usher intervene.

 

[Teelynn]

I will show my age with this one, however, I grew up in a Catholic School where we actually had all nuns teaching us. We were to be at School every morning at exactly 7:45 to line up outside of Church for Mass. We filed in single file and into our assigned pews. Before entering the pew we all genuflected of course. We were to kneel before Mass began, absolutely no sitting down on the pew. When we sat for the homily (very short) or even during the entire Mass we were not to look at our neighbor in any direction. Eyes front and center. When we did sit we were to sit with backs straight and hands folded. No slumping. After communion we were to kneel with our heads in our hands to pray to Jesus. Talking to our neighbor during Mass? That was a sin. Moving around too much? (either kneeling or sitting or standing) That too was forbidden, and if any of the rules were not followed precisely, we got wrapped on the head by one of the nuns sitting behind us and then no recess that day. Depending on the offense it might even be worse. (won’t go into detail)

I am not saying any of this is a bad thing. Taught us how to act in Church at Mass. Interesting though when I reached a certain point in my young adult life, I would have panic attacks at times at Mass and have to remind myself to breath. I guess my point is, respect and good behavior is one thing, acting mechanical during mass is (to me I guess with my experience and upbringing) completely counterproductive. I actually had to learn as I grew older how to actually pray at Mass and not to concentrate so much on my movements or how I was postured. As I look back, I think the concept they had was good but just a little over the top. There has to be a happy medium on correct behavior during Mass without being neurotic.:hypno:

Maybe things have gotten so loose in today’s world that we actually need a little of the boot camp mentality,(not quite to the extent that I had) especially with our kids.

 

[chicago]

There has to be a happy medium on correct behavior during Mass without being neurotic.:hypno:

And I’d rather deal with a happy medium than be burdened by a bad spirit!

 

[Like]

I will show my age with this one, however, I grew up in a Catholic School where we actually had all nuns teaching us. We were to be at School every morning at exactly 7:45 to line up outside of Church for Mass. We filed in single file and into our assigned pews. Before entering the pew we all genuflected of course. We were to kneel before Mass began, absolutely no sitting down on the pew. When we sat for the homily (very short) or even during the entire Mass we were not to look at our neighbor in any direction. Eyes front and center. When we did sit we were to sit with backs straight and hands folded. No slumping. After communion we were to kneel with our heads in our hands to pray to Jesus. Talking to our neighbor during Mass? That was a sin. Moving around too much? (either kneeling or sitting or standing) That too was forbidden, and if any of the rules were not followed precisely, we got wrapped on the head by one of the nuns sitting behind us and then no recess that day. Depending on the offense it might even be worse. (won’t go into detail)

I am not saying any of this is a bad thing. Taught us how to act in Church at Mass. Interesting though when I reached a certain point in my young adult life, I would have panic attacks at times at Mass and have to remind myself to breath. I guess my point is, respect and good behavior is one thing, acting mechanical during mass is (to me I guess with my experience and upbringing) completely counterproductive. I actually had to learn as I grew older how to actually pray at Mass and not to concentrate so much on my movements or how I was postured. As I look back, I think the concept they had was good but just a little over the top. There has to be a happy medium on correct behavior during Mass without being neurotic.:hypno:

Maybe things have gotten so loose in today’s world that we actually need a little of the boot camp mentality,(not quite to the extent that I had) especially with our kids.

That wouldn’t have been the Notre Dame nuns, would it?
It sounds so much like my school days (late 40’s, early 50’s). Anyway, I totally agree:thumbsup:

 

[Cat]

And I’d rather deal with a happy medium than be burdened by a bad spirit!

Great pun! If there were a CAF contest, you would win!

 

[jschwehm]

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council (like I am) and the Priest changes the words of the Eucharistic Prayers because he believes it is wrong to refer to God as Father because the word Father is “sexist” and “non-inclusive”?

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council and discover that Father is pouring the Precious Blood down the Sacrarium after Mass when there is some Precious Blood leftover in the glass pitcher?

What do you do when you approach Father as a member of the Parish Council and tell him that his actions are dividing the Parish to the point that approximately 300 people have left the Parish in the last 8 weeks since he became Pastor and Father’s response is “maybe this has to happen”?

What do you do when you approach Father about the Liturgical Abuses in the Liturgy and his response is “other parishes in this Archdiocese celebrate the Liturgy in a much more liberal way than me and the Archbishop does not require them to change their ways”?

What do you do when you write the Archbishop about the Liturgical Abuses and your letter is quickly given to the Vicar of Clergy who has similar views of the Liturgy as the Priest who is committing the Liturgical Abuses and then you discover that both your Priest and the Vicar of Clergy belong to a priestly alliance group that dissents from many of the teachings of the Church and regularly meets with and invites theologians and clergy from Call to Action to speak at their meetings?

This is what my parish is dealing with right now.

Jeff S.

 

[Teelynn]

That wouldn’t have been the Notre Dame nuns, would it?
It sounds so much like my school days (late 40’s, early 50’s). Anyway, I totally agree:thumbsup:

Nope, not the Notre Dame nuns, (BVMs) from a very small town that I grew up just a couple hours south of here. (Chicago) And yes actually mid to late 50’s. Can’t tell you how many times I had Sr. Thomas’s knuckles grinding in to the top of my head because of penmanship. By rights, should have had a bald spot. I could go on, but I’m already off topic.

 

[Teelynn]

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council (like I am) and the Priest changes the words of the Eucharistic Prayers because he believes it is wrong to refer to God as Father because the word Father is “sexist” and “non-inclusive”?

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council and discover that Father is pouring the Precious Blood down the Sacrarium after Mass when there is some Precious Blood leftover in the glass pitcher?

What do you do when you approach Father as a member of the Parish Council and tell him that his actions are dividing the Parish to the point that approximately 300 people have left the Parish in the last 8 weeks since he became Pastor and Father’s response is “maybe this has to happen”?

What do you do when you approach Father about the Liturgical Abuses in the Liturgy and his response is “other parishes in this Archdiocese celebrate the Liturgy in a much more liberal way than me and the Archbishop does not require them to change their ways”?

What do you do when you write the Archbishop about the Liturgical Abuses and your letter is quickly given to the Vicar of Clergy who has similar views of the Liturgy as the Priest who is committing the Liturgical Abuses and then you discover that both your Priest and the Vicar of Clergy belong to a priestly alliance group that dissents from many of the teachings of the Church and regularly meets with and invites theologians and clergy from Call to Action to speak at their meetings?

This is what my parish is dealing with right now.

Jeff S.

Oh my goodness! Unfortunately, you are not alone, this kind of thing is happening in certain areas elsewhere. Is there any way that your Parish Council can request an appointment with the Cardinal? (go as a group) In my parish we have actually had petitions signed by 2/3 of our parishioners and I believe they sent it registered. We have had some moderate luck with it. Do you know if the Cardinal is even aware of these activities?

 

[Moneo]

What do you do when you approach Father about the Liturgical Abuses in the Liturgy and his response is “other parishes in this Archdiocese celebrate the Liturgy in a much more liberal way than me and the Archbishop does not require them to change their ways”?

Are you a parent or a teacher, Jeff? In this case, I would say you speak to Father as if he were I particularly dull or obstinate child and explain to him that you were talking about his behaviour, not the behaviour of the rest of the rest of the priests of the diocese. Exactly the way my mum and my teachers used to explain it to us when we whined about what “everybody else” was doing.

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council (like I am) and the Priest changes the words of the Eucharistic Prayers because he believes it is wrong to refer to God as Father because the word Father is “sexist” and “non-inclusive”?

What do you do when you are on the Parish Council and discover that Father is pouring the Precious Blood down the Sacrarium after Mass when there is some Precious Blood leftover in the glass pitcher?

What do you do when you approach Father as a member of the Parish Council and tell him that his actions are dividing the Parish to the point that approximately 300 people have left the Parish in the last 8 weeks since he became Pastor and Father’s response is “maybe this has to happen”?

What do you do when you write the Archbishop about the Liturgical Abuses and your letter is quickly given to the Vicar of Clergy who has similar views of the Liturgy as the Priest who is committing the Liturgical Abuses and then you discover that both your Priest and the Vicar of Clergy belong to a priestly alliance group that dissents from many of the teachings of the Church and regularly meets with and invites theologians and clergy from Call to Action to speak at their meetings?

This is what my parish is dealing with right now.

Jeff S.

Here I would say that you dig your heels in for the long haul, be very thorugh and professional, avoid confrontations, and document everything. Divide the abuses into major and minor ones and decide which ones are the most urgent. Then consider whether a letter to the papal nuncio in Washington may be in order.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

But hand-clapping, or cuddling, or chatting before Mass–I don’t think the Catechism talks about these actions specifically, right? So it’s a matter of personal preference, right?

I don’t want my personal preference to be a “stumbling block” to someone else.

I’m sure you’re familiar with that term, “stumbling block,” but for those who aren’t, please read I Corinthians 8-10 (three chapters).

I Corinthians 8: 11 is especially convicting: “For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.”

Ouch. What a terrible thought–ruining a weaker brother.

To me, this verse means that I shouldn’t take a chance on hurting a weaker brother by telling him the “right” way to do things. I should always be concerned for his soul, not my preference or my perception of what is “right.” MY personal preference doesn’t matter at all compared with the soul of someone else! In fact, the Lord said that true love is to die for a brother.

If the Catechism has not called it sin or improper, then what right do I have to call something sin or improper?

Another convicting verse is I Corinthians 9: 22: “To the weak, I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all thngs to all men, that I may by all means save some.”

Well, the Catechism might be a good start for figuring out whether something is a sin, but we’re mostly concerned with propriety, and propriety will not be covered in a magisterial document because it is culturally conditioned. To list all the different variables generally appropriate at a certain time would be too time consuming and too likely to become an obsolete waste of effort.

That doesn’t mean, though, that propriety isn’t important. It just needs to be taught “closer to the ground,” so to speak. Propriety is very important for the dignity of the liturgy, and behaviors speak just as loudly as words in such a rich environment of sight, sound, and symbol. If someone is unaware of what Latin Catholic liturgical culture in our day and age considers appropriate, the charitable thing would be to teach him or her.

Notice I said teach; unless the behavior is serious, a rebuke is probably not called for. I notice your opinion seems to be motivated mostly out of concern for the weaker brother, but I also can’t help but notice that the concern is myopic: you are so worried about whatever damage might occur from a kind and tactful effort at correcting one member of the congregation that you don’t seem to have considered the effect that one member might be having on everyone else. If one person’s mildly inappropriate but nevertheless distracting behavior is causing five, ten, or twenty others to get less out of Mass, a failure to correct on brother’s weakness could exacerbate the weakness of many others.

There are all sorts of scenarios one could imagine. Leaving a behavior uncorrected could, as said above, deteriorate worship for many more people. A behavior unnoticed by those more intent on the liturgy still might set a bad example for children having a harder time paying attention, thus having spillover effects. A different spillover might be had by bad but tolerated behaviors slowly becoming more widespread as others who aren’t well-schooled in good Mass behavior say “Well, I don’t know but Mr. Jones does it and nobody says anything to him about it.” You’re right, stumbling blocks are bad, so let’s try to do what we can to remove them. Let’s do our best to charitably help all our brothers and sisters learn reverent behavior.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

To me, this verse means that things like hand-clapping, chatting, etc. are OK if they are done with the motive of winning our Protestant and other non-Catholic human beings to the Lord Jesus Christ and His Church. These actions are not inherently evil. Hand-clapping is actually mentioned many times in the Scriptures, and showing love to our fellow man is something that is commanded by Jesus our Lord. (Chatting with a parishioner or a visitor could be a way of showing love for them.)

…Many Christians are weak in their faith, and if someone gives them a “wound” by criticizing a behavior that is not specifically defined by the Catechism or the Bible as a “sin,” then sometimes these wounded, weak people just don’t have the strength to keep coming back to church.

We are supposed to bear one another’s burdens and help build each other up in Christ. Is rebuking someone for a questionable behavior (that may not even be a sin) a good way to build them up? Again, I refer to I Corinthians. St. Paul seems to say that our highest goal should be to win and keep souls to the Lord and His Church, not correct bad behaviors.

A last point relates to the bolded quotation above. Motivation is not the only element that determines the goodness or badness of an action. It also has both objective and circumstantial factors taht must be brought into play when evaluating its merit. Even well-intentioned people who possibly even do win someone for Christ can still do so in a way that teaches improper theologies. I saw a lot of that when I worked in a diocese that was very heterodox and disobedient. Converts were being brought to more or at least more correct faith in Christ, but they were also being fed something that wasn’t the true - and certainly not the full - Catholic faith. The best way to correct this is not to shut down the well-intentioned teachers completely but to seek to slowly educate them so that not only they will come to know and appreciate the truth better but also everyone touched by their well-meaning evangelism will be benefited, too. Granted, not every inappropriate behavior will stem from a theological error, but we usually have very good reasons for our rules of propriety, and teaching good behavior should include some reasoning behind it, which leads to a better grasp of what we, as Catholics, believe.

 

[chicago]

There are all sorts of scenarios one could imagine. Leaving a behavior uncorrected could, as said above, deteriorate worship for many more people. A behavior unnoticed by those more intent on the liturgy still might set a bad example for children having a harder time paying attention, thus having spillover effects. A different spillover might be had by bad but tolerated behaviors slowly becoming more widespread as others who aren’t well-schooled in good Mass behavior say “Well, I don’t know but Mr. Jones does it and nobody says anything to him about it.” You’re right, stumbling blocks are bad, so let’s try to do what we can to remove them. Let’s do our best to charitably help all our brothers and sisters learn reverent behavior.

Still, one is left to ask who is to appropriately adjudicate what, exactly, constitutes reverent behavior. And what if a behavior is reverent, but not as reverent as someone else would prefer. Or perhaps the one who stands out is SO hyper reverent that is causes the same set of problems even for those who are truly reverent, but not to such extremes.

It seems that what one is ultimately often talking about is more likely a certain degree of conformity. Sit down (but with proper posture), shut up, pay, pray, and obey.

But the reality is that we are individuals, and will ultimately express ourselves uniquely.

We all need to grow… in Christ firstly but also in appreciation of others. Stumbling blocks go both ways. So it may, at times, be the corrector who needs some self correcting.

In this light, I offer the following from my own experience at a time when I frequently found myself annoyed by many things. My impulse was to get angry and indignantly demand correction and change. I may have not been entirely uncalled for in my intended actions. But realizing that there usually was little which I could do about things and knowing that the “offending” parties (as I percieved them) may not have known any better (or whatever the trouble they perhaps faced), I began to practice offering up my pain for them and praying for myself. It brought about much more peace.

Sometimes, we also just have to laugh at our differences or weaknesses, understanding the reality of how we are fallen, funny beings. As my signature line says, “Laugh at yourself, everyone else does!” Laughter has a tendency to unite, in recognition of our common frailty, and thus pull us all up.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Still, one is left to ask who is to appropriately adjudicate what, exactly, constitutes reverent behavior. And what if a behavior is reverent, but not as reverent as someone else would prefer. Or perhaps the one who stands out is SO hyper reverent that is causes the same set of problems even for those who are truly reverent, but not to such extremes.

It seems that what one is ultimately often talking about is more likely a certain degree of conformity. Sit down (but with proper posture), shut up, pay, pray, and obey.

But the reality is that we are individuals, and will ultimately express ourselves uniquely.

We all need to grow… in Christ firstly but also in appreciation of others. Stumbling blocks go both ways. So it may, at times, be the corrector who needs some self correcting.

In this light, I offer the following from my own experience at a time when I frequently found myself annoyed by many things. My impulse was to get angry and indignantly demand correction and change. I may have not been entirely uncalled for in my intended actions. But realizing that there usually was little which I could do about things and knowing that the “offending” parties (as I percieved them) may not have known any better (or whatever the trouble they perhaps faced), I began to practice offering up my pain for them and praying for myself. It brought about much more peace.

Sometimes, we also just have to laugh at our differences or weaknesses, understanding the reality of how we are fallen, funny beings. As my signature line says, “Laugh at yourself, everyone else does!” Laughter has a tendency to unite, in recognition of our common frailty, and thus pull us all up.

I’ll certainly give you that people who are being so reverent as to be distracting might be in need of correction for the sake of others. I don’t think, however, that the fact that we have different ways we like to express our faith means the liturgy is the proper context for expressing that individuality. It is a particular social situation with its own rules, and doing things that are going to cause an undue amount of attention to shift from the ritual action to an individual violates those rules (even if done by the priest himself). Depending on the situation in the parish in general and between individuals in particular, I could see various different ways of addressing what one perceives as problematic behavior, so I’m not trying to say that one should always take the full initiative oneself. Still, I think the one course of action I would not take is simply offering up a distraction time after time when with a little bit of effort the “problem” could be fixed and both I and the “offending” party would probably gain a bit out of the experience.

 

[chicago]

I don’t think, however, that the fact that we have different ways we like to express our faith means the liturgy is the proper context for expressing that individuality. It is a particular social situation with its own rules, and doing things that are going to cause an undue amount of attention to shift from the ritual action to an individual violates those rules (even if done by the priest himself).

I would, generally, concur. Liturgy is the “Work of the People” as a unit, not mere individual prayer. But the question remains one of at what point and in what matter the “attention shift” is a serious matter such that intervention is called for.

A priest playing around intentionally with the prescribed prayers of the Mass? He really ought not. Musical selections in the Mass? Well, now, that is more likely a matter of taste. Someone wearing a T-shirt and jeans rather than an ankle length dress? We may be getting picky about personal matters of individual preference in expressions of devotion and human decorum. How one sits or if your foot is resting on the kneeler? There is probably too much annoyance and taking of offense over nonessentials.

Still, I think the one course of action I would not take is simply offering up a distraction time after time when with a little bit of effort the “problem” could be fixed and both I and the “offending” party would probably gain a bit out of the experience.

It may be wise advice for some but not others, depending upon the circumstances and personalities at play.

However, while what you suggest sounds reasonable it remains an ideal. It might be worthy and commendable and even prudent to approach another and bring attention to the concern, if only to inquire about why another does something or share one’s discomfort. Hopefully, it can bear good fruit. Yet, often, the problem can’t truly be resolved despite our best efforts or intentions, and while it would be quite desirable for both parties to “gain a bit out of the experience”, it may just fan the flames or go nowhere. Not to mention larger issues of what a community or pastor does which are often just beyond the possibilities of what one man can accomplish in response.

Speaking from personal experience in such endeavors (as well as what I have learned from friends and associates who have encountered the same), I generally find that one party or the other (if not both) are usually set in their ways and not really open to discussion or growth, unfortunately. In which case all that gets gained from the experience is further frustration. This, then, leaves us no other choice than to “offer it up” in the end afterall. Still, it doesn’t mean it’s not necessarily worth a try, if one is willing and able to share the concern in a positive spirit, and able to eventually let it go or give it to God should things not go well.

 

[Cat]

How does this approach–I’ll call “Plan B”–sound to everyone?

You go to Mass. Someone is doing something that you find distracting and you think is irreverent. You don’t know the person at all.

So you implement Plan B Stage 1: spend the next few months getting to know them.

After Mass, you meet them in the lobby or outside of the Church and introduce yourself. (You can say something like,“We often sit near each other in Mass, and I just thought we should at least know each other’s names.”)

For the next month or so, you greet them by name (in the church lobby, of course) and make small talk. “How about those Bears, eh?!”

Then comes Plan B Stage 2: you ask them out for lunch or dinner or coffee after Mass. During the meal, you talk a lot. You learn all about them, and they learn all about you.

Out of politeness, they will probably return the invitation sometime within the next month, and you will have another opportunity to talk and get to know each other.

Hopefully, you are discovering that you have things in common and you might even become friends. Wouldn’t that be great?!

At any rate, even if you don’t have anything in common and you don’t become close friends, after a few months, you know them fairly well.

THEN implement Plan B Stage 3: ask them…as a friend…about their bahavior during Mass that you find distracting and/or irreverent.

What does everyone think of Plan B?

I think it would accomplish a great deal of good. It certainly sounds better than Plan A, which from what I understand involves walking up to a perfect stranger and saying, “Pardon me, my name is ___, and I’d like to speak with you about something you are doing during Mass that I find very distracting.”

Plan A sounds like a prelude to war to me. I suppose some of you think that Plan B sounds like appeasement ala Neville Chamberlain. So how about this? Just try Plan B, give it three months, and if it fails and the person is still doing the distracting or irreverent behavior, go back to Plan A and try your best to avoid a war.

 

[chicago]

For the next month or so, you greet them by name (in the church lobby, of course) and make small talk. “How about those Bears, eh?!”

“I’m a Packer’s fan, you heretic!” comes the indignant reply.

 

[Cat]

“I’m a Packer’s fan, you heretic!” comes the indignant reply.

OK, change in the SOP of Plan B. How about changing the small talk opener to, “How about that game, eh?”

That gives freedom for the person to announce any fanatical fixations or hatred of certain teams, thus saving the conversation starter from intense embarrassment and/or possible physical harm.

In our parish, the pastor is a fanatical Bears fan (wears a Bears jersey under his vestments on game days), so most people in the parish are also Bears fans, at least when we’re around Father. My younger daughter, a loyal Packers fan, will stand up to him, but she’s not Catholic (yet).

BTW, for all who think that it’s irreverent for Father to wear a Bears jersey or be so outspokenly devoted to his team–my daughter really loves this priest and I think he is one reason why she is considering a conversion to Catholicism. Just as Jesus used the objects of this world to win followers (e.g., the water at the well for the Samaritan woman), our priests can use the objects of this world (e.g., football) to win followers of Jesus and His Church. God Bless our priest!