Correcting the sins of others

[Rachel126]

What exactly is our duty as Catholics to tell other people about sins that we see them committing? Are we under an obligation to try to correct the sins of others in all circumstances, or only in some situations? If it’s not always, how do we discern when it’s appropriate and when it’s not? A few examples, just to start conversation…

1. A Catholic co-worker mentions her husband is going to get a vasectomy. Should we point out that this is a sin? What if we reasonably believe she already knows this? What if the co-worker is Protestant, and her church approves of the practice?
2. A divorced Protestant relative is planning a second wedding (to another Protestant). By our Catholic standards, this second marriage isn’t legitimate. Are we supposed to point this out to him? Since he isn’t Catholic and his church fully sanctions the second wedding, he’s very likely to not care at all what the Catholic church thinks about his marriage.
3. A Catholic friend has kind of fallen away from the Church, attending Mass sporadically but not regularly. Should I tell her it’s a sin to not attend every week? She comes from a devout family and attended Catholic school, i am fairly certain she’s already aware of the Church teaching about the sunday obligation.
4. An unmarried Catholic friend announces she and her boyfriend are having a baby. Do we tell her that premarital relations are sinful?
5. A casual acquaintance of undetermined religious belief takes the Lord’s name in vain occasionally. Point out that this is a sin?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

1. Stay out of your coworkers sexual business.
2. I think it would be very rude to say that to the Protestant, since he isn’t likely to care.
3. Rather than saying it’s a sin, which might make her want to go less, why not ask for a mass and brunch date with her and make it a fun routine?
4. The horse is already out of the barn. Frankly, if I were having a baby and someone found out and tried to convince me after the fact the the conception of my baby is wrong, they probably wouldn’t see too much of said child.
5. I guess, but you’ll get an eyeroll, or worse.

 

[maryjk]

1. Stay out of your coworkers sexual business.

Unless you know this person outside of work, maybe through the Church. I would probably say, “Thanks, I don’t want to know about your sex life.”

1. I think it would be very rude to say that to the Protestant, since he isn’t likely to care.

Another I don’t see how we are gathering sheep for the Lord’s kingdom, by pointing out what others are doing wrong.

1. Rather than saying it’s a sin, which might make her want to go less, why not ask for a mass and brunch date with her and make it a fun routine?

BEL, you keep hitting them out of the park. OP, be positive. Don’t tell her it is a sin. Be happy she is going sometimes, and invite her to attend every week. Then maybe out to lunch with you or your family.

1. The horse is already out of the barn. Frankly, if I were having a baby and someone found out and tried to convince me after the fact the the conception of my baby is wrong, they probably wouldn’t see too much of said child.

That is exactly how I would handle it. Tell me that my son “is a sin.” And I will tell you to stay out of my life. (And yes, I had my son while I was married, but only civilly. I wasn’t married in the Church until our son was 7.

1. I guess, but you’ll get an eyeroll, or worse.

No, OP, we shouldn’t walk around the world pointing out the sin of others. Think about it. Would you like it if I came up to you, out of the blue, and told you that you were sinning? Or would you prefer for me to show you the love of Christ through my actions?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I know that as Catholics we are called to “fraternal correction”.Outside of my children(who are adults),I am uncomfortable with broaching this with fellow Catholics.It is a sticky situation for sure.In fact,even with my own children,I tread lightly because I am fearful of turning them off completely.

 

[onelostdod]

What exactly is our duty as Catholics to tell other people about sins that we see them committing? Are we under an obligation to try to correct the sins of others in all circumstances, or only in some situations? If it’s not always, how do we discern when it’s appropriate and when it’s not? A few examples, just to start conversation…

1. A Catholic co-worker mentions her husband is going to get a vasectomy. Should we point out that this is a sin? What if we reasonably believe she already knows this? What if the co-worker is Protestant, and her church approves of the practice?
2. A divorced Protestant relative is planning a second wedding (to another Protestant). By our Catholic standards, this second marriage isn’t legitimate. Are we supposed to point this out to him? Since he isn’t Catholic and his church fully sanctions the second wedding, he’s very likely to not care at all what the Catholic church thinks about his marriage.
3. A Catholic friend has kind of fallen away from the Church, attending Mass sporadically but not regularly. Should I tell her it’s a sin to not attend every week? She comes from a devout family and attended Catholic school, i am fairly certain she’s already aware of the Church teaching about the sunday obligation.
4. An unmarried Catholic friend announces she and her boyfriend are having a baby. Do we tell her that premarital relations are sinful?
5. A casual acquaintance of undetermined religious belief takes the Lord’s name in vain occasionally. Point out that this is a sin?

hello i think you were wondering what church doctrune is on this ?

not just an opinion?

the real trick, is how to hear from the H.G. on each individual situation

i’ve deal with all those situations–

 

[dailey]

What exactly is our duty as Catholics to tell other people about sins that we see them committing? Are we under an obligation to try to correct the sins of others in all circumstances, or only in some situations? If it’s not always, how do we discern when it’s appropriate and when it’s not? A few examples, just to start conversation…

1. A Catholic co-worker mentions her husband is going to get a vasectomy. Should we point out that this is a sin? What if we reasonably believe she already knows this? What if the co-worker is Protestant, and her church approves of the practice?
2. A divorced Protestant relative is planning a second wedding (to another Protestant). By our Catholic standards, this second marriage isn’t legitimate. Are we supposed to point this out to him? Since he isn’t Catholic and his church fully sanctions the second wedding, he’s very likely to not care at all what the Catholic church thinks about his marriage.
3. A Catholic friend has kind of fallen away from the Church, attending Mass sporadically but not regularly. Should I tell her it’s a sin to not attend every week? She comes from a devout family and attended Catholic school, i am fairly certain she’s already aware of the Church teaching about the sunday obligation.
4. An unmarried Catholic friend announces she and her boyfriend are having a baby. Do we tell her that premarital relations are sinful?
5. A casual acquaintance of undetermined religious belief takes the Lord’s name in vain occasionally. Point out that this is a sin?

Excellent questions. I have thought this myself many times. I am interested in knowing what our duty is as a Catholic, not just what is polite or politcally correct. I know Jesus says in scriptures we are to correct our brother and sister when they sin or else it becomes our sin as well. But with so many people getting so easily offended anymore, how many catholic would actually feel comfortable doing it? I would guess not many. And THAT is why the world has gone mad…

 

[free_spirit]

I think it is our duty as Catholics and as followers of Christ to encourage each other to live in holiness where we can, but to balance that with the sensitivity to know that the other person might think we are intentionally criticizing them if we go too far, even when of course that is not our intention. When I am disturbed by the actions of someone else and am worried for them, I pray for them to come into a deeper knowledge of what they are doing. Perhaps you might like to try that. Believe in the power of prayer and in the infinite love and mercy of our Lord and Saviour.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

1. Stay out of your coworkers sexual business.
2. I think it would be very rude to say that to the Protestant, since he isn’t likely to care.
3. Rather than saying it’s a sin, which might make her want to go less, why not ask for a mass and brunch date with her and make it a fun routine?
4. The horse is already out of the barn. Frankly, if I were having a baby and someone found out and tried to convince me after the fact the the conception of my baby is wrong, they probably wouldn’t see too much of said child.
5. I guess, but you’ll get an eyeroll, or worse.

I totally agree with all of this.

OP, if someone doesn’t ask for your opinion then they usually don’t want it.

 

[dailey]

hello i think you were wondering what church doctrune is on this ?

not just an opinion?

the real trick, is how to hear from the H.G. on each individual situation

i’ve deal with all those situations–

I believe you are correct. Not opinions but what the church wants us to do as catholics.

I am going to try to answer the first question. I would mention it to the coworker that vasectomies are viewed as a grave matter in the church and leave it at that, unless of course, she asks me for more information. Chances are she may not even know this. It’s unfortunate that the priests don’t bring this up more often in the sermons.

Okay, i’ll take a dab at the other questions too. The second one I would not say anything as they are not catholic. The third and fourth question, I would think they, being catholic, would know these are sins so no need to remind them. I mean, even non-catholics know this! The fifth question, tricky, because sooo many people use God’s name in vain. Hopefully, someone who is more knowledgeable then I will pop in and clarify and let us know what we should “actually” do in these situations.

 

[Spencerian]

What exactly is our duty as Catholics to tell other people about sins that we see them committing? Are we under an obligation to try to correct the sins of others in all circumstances, or only in some situations? If it’s not always, how do we discern when it’s appropriate and when it’s not? A few examples, just to start conversation…

1. A Catholic co-worker mentions her husband is going to get a vasectomy. Should we point out that this is a sin? What if we reasonably believe she already knows this? What if the co-worker is Protestant, and her church approves of the practice?
2. A divorced Protestant relative is planning a second wedding (to another Protestant). By our Catholic standards, this second marriage isn’t legitimate. Are we supposed to point this out to him? Since he isn’t Catholic and his church fully sanctions the second wedding, he’s very likely to not care at all what the Catholic church thinks about his marriage.
3. A Catholic friend has kind of fallen away from the Church, attending Mass sporadically but not regularly. Should I tell her it’s a sin to not attend every week? She comes from a devout family and attended Catholic school, i am fairly certain she’s already aware of the Church teaching about the sunday obligation.
4. An unmarried Catholic friend announces she and her boyfriend are having a baby. Do we tell her that premarital relations are sinful?
5. A casual acquaintance of undetermined religious belief takes the Lord’s name in vain occasionally. Point out that this is a sin?

As poster BlueEyedLady notes her religion as atheist, I feel obligated to advise you as a Catholic brother, since you asked for insight based on *Catholic *social teaching, not that of non-Catholic practice and current social norms.

1. Since the person solicited the information themselves and you know them to be Catholic, this is an appropriate opportunity to give a morsel of advice without prying since the act has yet to be done. Whether you should does depend on the closeness of your friendship and work practices. Rather than critically pointing out the graveness of the act, one could ask their friend why they choose this option over Natural Family Planning, which is far less expensive, requires no surgery or drugs. You’ll need to be prepared for objections to the notion that Catholics can have sex anytime they want without consequence.
2. Discussing this topic is heavily dependent on your friendship and understanding of each other’s faith traditions. It’s likely not a good idea to discuss at all unless you have a good rapport in this and similar topics of Protestant/Catholic marriage teachings.
3. You should have a very strong friendship to discuss such things with another Catholic in this regard. It would be likely that you would be seen as being nosy than helpful and could make the situation worse. A better suggestion would be to invite them out to a restaurant or deli to talk as friends–but ask them if they can join you at Mass beforehand. This way, they show their commitment and choice without you appearing to badger, and you can still meet your friend later if they don’t go to Mass. Communication is key to helping a lapsed Catholic return, not pointing out sin as if they made a wrong test score.
4. I agree with others in that you shouldn’t discuss the already-done deed. The child is not the sin. Celebrate the new life as far as your friendship allows but you can ask if they have a wedding in mind. If you’re not close friends, don’t enter into this.
5. You cannot play “Scripture Cop” to those who profane God’s name in general conversation. But you can and should ask for decorum if said person does this in your home.

You may find comments in this similar recent thread also helpful.

 

[Rachel126]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I appreciate all (name removed by moderator)ut.
Please also understand, I genuinely do not really want to “correct” anyone, I just do not want to shirk any obligation I may have as a Catholic. Explaining something to a Catholic who isn’t aware something is a sin seems easy enough (especially when they ask!), but it’s so much trickier to know what to do when it seems obvious the person is already aware they are sinning. I may seek the counsel of a priest about this.

 

[dailey]

Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I appreciate all (name removed by moderator)ut.
Please also understand, I genuinely do not really want to “correct” anyone, I just do not want to shirk any obligation I may have as a Catholic. Explaining something to a Catholic who isn’t aware something is a sin seems easy enough (especially when they ask!), but it’s so much trickier to know what to do when it seems obvious the person is already aware they are sinning. I may seek the counsel of a priest about this.

Good idea to talk to your priest about this. But it seems like if these people know they are sinning then all you can do at this point is pray for them.

 

[on_the_hill]

1. An unmarried Catholic friend announces she and her boyfriend are having a baby. Do we tell her that premarital relations are sinful?

I wouldn’t touch this with a seven foot poll. Not with a seven times seventy foot pole. As a parent (whose children were all conceived within the bonds of Holy Matrimony), if someone were to have broached such a topic with me had I been in this circumstance I would have been extraordinarily angry. Not merely angry, but extraordinarily angry.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think the Old Catholic Encyclopedia gives some great guidelines on when it is necessary to offer fraternal correction:

• the delinquency to be corrected or prevented is a grievous one;
• there is no good reason to believe that the sinner will adequately provide for himself;
• there is a well-founded expectation that the admonition will be heeded;
• there is no one else just as well fitted for this work of Christian charity and likely to undertake it;
• there is no special trouble or disadvantage accruing to the reformer as a result of his zeal.

It further notes that the occurrence of all of these circumstances together which would obligate a person to issue fraternal correction is actually quite rare.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

I wouldn’t touch this with a seven foot poll. Not with a seven times seventy foot pole. As a parent (whose children were all conceived within the bonds of Holy Matrimony), if someone were to have broached such a topic with me had I been in this circumstance I would have been extraordinarily angry. Not merely angry, but extraordinarily angry.

Could you elaborate as to the why you’d be* extraordinarily *angry?

 

[Allegra]

I think a useful rule of thumb is if you have a close enough relationship with the person that you would feel comfortable telling them they need to lose weight or quit smoking, then it might be alright to tell them you are concerned about their sinning. For me, this is a fairly limited list of people, but if you go telling others about their sin, and you don’t have a trusting relationship with you, there will be no benefit. They will just write you off as a busy body and they won’t change.

On the other hand, if their sin is affecting you, then you could tell them in a polite way that it bothers you. (ie. It really bothers me when other’s take the Lord’s name in vain around me. I feels like you are talking bad about someone I really care about.)

There are also times when someone’s sin is going to harm others, and in that case you have to decide if it is better to talk to the person or to go over their head.

 

[on_the_hill]

Could you elaborate as to the why you’d be* extraordinarily *angry?

I think if someone were to tell me that my child was a result of sin…yeah, that would raise my hackles.

 

[Rachel126]

I think the Old Catholic Encyclopedia gives some great guidelines on when it is necessary to offer fraternal correction:

• the delinquency to be corrected or prevented is a grievous one;
• there is no good reason to believe that the sinner will adequately provide for himself;
• there is a well-founded expectation that the admonition will be heeded;
• there is no one else just as well fitted for this work of Christian charity and likely to undertake it;
• there is no special trouble or disadvantage accruing to the reformer as a result of his zeal.

It further notes that the occurrence of all of these circumstances together which would obligate a person to issue fraternal correction is actually quite rare.

Hi Joe,
I had just found that same information via Googling, and was going to post this but you beat me to it.
To be honest, this does relieve a great deal of my anxiety about this topic. I think #3 and #5 apply in a great deal of these types of cases. Many people who, for example, are living together are fully aware that this is against Church teaching and they disregard it anyway, and in such a case, I don’t see why there would be a well founded expectation that the person will listen to the correction. One exception here would be in the case of parents correcting their children, as even adult children are in some cases more likely to listen to their parents than anyone else. But even here, as a previous poster noted, treading lightly is prudent as to avoid turning them off altogether.
As to #5, I think serious damage to a relationship, or destroying it altogether, could count as “special trouble or disadvantage” resulting from a lot of cases of fraternal correction.

#4 raises questions as well–in most of my hypothetical cases, I can’t think of any reason why I would be the only well suited person to raise the correction (pastors if aware of the situation would be ideal, or parents or close family members are more suited than co-workers or friends, I would think).

 

[maryjk]

I think if someone were to tell me that my child was a result of sin…yeah, that would raise my hackles.

At the least, it would raise my hackles.

 

[Jeanne_S]

I think a useful rule of thumb is if you have a close enough relationship with the person that you would feel comfortable telling them they need to lose weight or quit smoking, then it might be alright to tell them you are concerned about their sinning. For me, this is a fairly limited list of people, but if you go telling others about their sin, and you don’t have a trusting relationship with you, there will be no benefit. They will just write you off as a busy body and they won’t change.

On the other hand, if their sin is affecting you, then you could tell them in a polite way that it bothers you. (ie. It really bothers me when other’s take the Lord’s name in vain around me. I feels like you are talking bad about someone I really care about.)

There are also times when someone’s sin is going to harm others, and in that case you have to decide if it is better to talk to the person or to go over their head.